Conquer Club

1.
Where are you getting this individualism from? The entire central point of western religions is that humans are worthless pieces of shit who need to constantly grovel before a higher power, or suffer for eternity.

The whole concept, that you're tainted from birth, condemned to death as it were, and no action you take can ever save you, except for admitting your worthlessness and begging god to forgive your imagined crimes. This is the most extreme form of dictatorship imaginable.
What are the powers of the state or the priest compared to this? Any form of human dictatorship is vastly preferable as at least your suffering is limited by death. Not so with god though, he is there forever. Grovel or burn. Greatest love story indeed.

2.
Yes the fact that it is irrational is sufficient reason to dismiss it. If you value truth at all that is.

Humans are only worthless because we have chosen to sin. God created us as perfect beings and desires a personal relationship with us. He's not demanding that we be groveling servants because that's not what he has in store for us in eternity.

1. God creates universe
2. God creates perfect being in his image
3. Perfect being manages to sin, thus proving to be imperfect
4. Since perfect being is imperfect, there is a contradiction

Therefore, God didn't create the Universe.


Q.E.D.

Army of GOD wrote:1. God creates universe
2. God creates perfect being in his image
3. Perfect being manages to sin, thus proving to be imperfect

Am I the only one who isn't following this logic?

That's because He created us with free will. If we weren't allowed to choose, then He would have just been creating robots, not humans. God has free will, so He created us with free will.

chang50 wrote:

patches70 wrote:

chang50 wrote:

john9blue wrote:

army of nobunaga wrote:Without Jesus we would probably have a colony on the moon and MArs today.

more likely, we would have either killed ourselves off already, or come so close to doing so that technology and education would be set back even further

Far more likely it would have made little difference as people would have made up something else to follow,or latched onto a pre-existing myth..

Or we could have just adopted the Roman way. Death before dishonor, Roman civilization is the greatest and all the rest mere barbarians. What of those "pre-existing" myths that people would have latched onto instead?

Without Christianity human beings and society would be even more fractured and sectarian. Before Jesus the prevailing thought of individuals was that of loyalty to the tribe and at best distrust of others. Certainly far less tolerance of other cultures and societies. Not saying the early Christian Church was very thoughtful or understanding of that concept either but it was Jesus who planted the seed that changed the world. Without him, this world would be even worse off.

Forget not that it was the Romans who burnt the Great Library of Alexandria down (right around the time Jesus was born). Scholars agree that had it not been burnt we human beings could well have been landing on the moon instead of just discovering the new world in Columbus' day. So was the thinking and arrogance of the Roman Empire that no matter how inventive another culture may be, if it wasn't Roman it was worthless.

The Romans were inventive and clever, true enough. But their thoughts on compassion and tolerance would be quite abhorrent to us today. Jesus' message to treat each other with love and kindness, even to our enemies, seems easy enough to accept to us today. But to the people of the time, it was a novel and alien concept. The world would be greatly different had not that idea been offered and only by the very limited acceptance today of that very concept is the world even remotely better than it was back in those days. In so far as how we treat each other (which is still like crap but miles above how we once were).

There are still a great many people in the world who are as selfish, cruel and self absorbed with themselves as the Romans were. Token platitudes from mouth, black evil in heart. Atheistic Utopian promises while pissing on the very seed of compassion planted by Jesus. Those promises won't amount to much so long as they keep trying to kill the sprout of kindness.

Your point would have more force if Christians had behaved a little bit more like they were supposed to over the last 2000 years.

And you would do well to not judge the actions of a people in 422 A.D. by the standards of 2012 A.D. It was a completely different world, and you also seem to generalize that every action by all Christians throughout history were unjust and unprovoked. You need the context to understand that not every event in history was to be blamed on one side. Some of the times the actions can be caused by an initial action from another people, such as invasion. Sometimes they were wrong, sometimes they were right, sometimes they did things that better humanity, sometimes they did not.

ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

Night Strike wrote:Humans are only worthless because we have chosen to sin. God created us as perfect beings and desires a personal relationship with us. He's not demanding that we be groveling servants because that's not what he has in store for us in eternity.

How is original sin my own choice?

What is a sin?

Army of GOD wrote:ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

I'll assuage you to death with Saxi sausage if you disagree or agree.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:ITT: we make unfounded claims that the world would be worse/better off without Christianity.

I'll assuage you to death with Saxi sausage if you disagree or agree.

Having a German grandma and a Polish grandpa, I ingest brauts like air.

Haggis_McMutton wrote:1.
Where are you getting this individualism from? The entire central point of western religions is that humans are worthless pieces of shit who need to constantly grovel before a higher power, or suffer for eternity.

The whole concept, that you're tainted from birth, condemned to death as it were, and no action you take can ever save you, except for admitting your worthlessness and begging god to forgive your imagined crimes. This is the most extreme form of dictatorship imaginable.
What are the powers of the state or the priest compared to this? Any form of human dictatorship is vastly preferable as at least your suffering is limited by death. Not so with god though, he is there forever. Grovel or burn. Greatest love story indeed.

Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Army of GOD wrote:Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

patches70 wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:1.
Where are you getting this individualism from? The entire central point of western religions is that humans are worthless pieces of shit who need to constantly grovel before a higher power, or suffer for eternity.

The whole concept, that you're tainted from birth, condemned to death as it were, and no action you take can ever save you, except for admitting your worthlessness and begging god to forgive your imagined crimes. This is the most extreme form of dictatorship imaginable.
What are the powers of the state or the priest compared to this? Any form of human dictatorship is vastly preferable as at least your suffering is limited by death. Not so with god though, he is there forever. Grovel or burn. Greatest love story indeed.

Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Baron Von PWN wrote:Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

patches70 wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

patches70 wrote:Your understanding is lacking.

Remember back to the days before Jesus. There, the individual could not, was not allowed to commune with God. Whatever God that individual may have worshiped. From Zeus, to Jupiter, to Isis, to Mithra or whatever you wish to look at.

The Pharaohs along with their priests interpreted the word of God. The average Egyptian wasn't even allowed to learn to read hieroglyphs let alone have a relationship with their God.
The Greeks had to defer to an oracle.
The Jews were not allowed to set foot into the holiest of holy's, only the high priest could do that.
The Pope's of old told the flock what God wanted, read from Bibles written in Latin where the flock had no ability or knowledge to even read. It was punishable by death to write the Holy book into any other language that the masses could read themselves.
The Romans replaced God with The State.
The Pharisees strode around the cities telling who was and who was not righteous. Interpreting ill fate as punishment from God and demanding sacrifice to make amends while not even understanding the true wisdom of their own holy books.
Religious leaders of then and even now issue orders, Fatwas, edicts and expect the believers to obey without question as if individuals had no intellect of their own.

Jesus changed all that. But those in religious power were not easily swayed to relinquish that power.

Jesus taught that each individual, sinner or saint, righteous or not, could have a personal relationship with God. Jesus taught that that even the lowest of those in life were like Kings to God and the Kings were like the lowliest of servants before the Creator.
Jesus taught that it was the spirit of Mosaic law that mattered, not a strict, rigid adherence to the letter with no thought of circumstance and just plain bad fate. Would you not pull your <ass> (donkey) from the pit even if it were the Sabbath?

Jesus taught a new way to look at life, a new way that at the time was truly mind shattering. To treat people, even if they were not of your tribe, of your land, gentile or Jew, treat them all as you would have yourself treated.
Jesus did not come to topple Kings and Empires. He came to free our minds.

We today cannot appreciate that message for the truly awe inspiring difference of thought that the people of those times had. The very idea of a "Good Samaritan" or the story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion would have been beyond troubling to the people of the day. The message that even the hated Roman could have a relationship with the very God that the Jews worshiped, that the same promise God made to the chosen people was extended to all of the Earth if they but understood the wisdom. Because the Pharisees of the time did not understand that truth, that wisdom that promise was extended to all the peoples of the Earth.

It is not irrational to want to work out differences between people, societies, cultures, individuals without bloodshed and violence.

It is not irrational to treat people fairly, honestly and justly.

It is not irrational to see people not like yourself and understand that they are in many ways the same as you.

It is not irrational to love, to show kindness.

Where do you think these things came from?
Who do you think taught this message at a time and place in history where it could actually spread across the globe?

Even the vast majority of the great thinkers of the Renaissance era were deeply religious and yet they had the courage to pursue their God given gifts of intellect and art despite possible punishment from the religious leaders of the day. Where do you think the basis of their courage came from?

That despite what the Pope may say, or the Iman, or the Rabbi, or the preacher may say, those individuals understood that we were all men looked at the same by God as Jesus taught. That even if they were to have their lives taken or their freedom stripped, that they would be vindicated by God and by history in the end.

Look at the most evil of men in history and see what they have in common. The complete lack of acknowledgment of the rights of the individual. That the State, in whatever form it may be, knows better what the people need than the individuals themselves. That those same human beings in power know better morality than the individual could know themselves.

Jesus taught us a better way to view ourselves. A view not at all widely held during his time and not widely held enough in our age.

It is the greatest love story ever told. And it changed the world in ways that those who are blind with prejudice or ill informed perception could never understand.

I think we're talking past each other to a certain extent. You seem to be making 2 points:

1. Christianity had a positive effect on the world.
This may well be true, it's very hard to tell and seems kind of pointless to discuss imo. I'm not arguing this point.

2. Jesus was a swell guy and had a good philosophy.
I would 100% agree with this, if only there wouldn't be all the god nonsense thrown in. You may say the god stuff was necessary for that day and age. Again this might well be true, however I think it is not necessary and even harmful today.

Did Jesus support the notion that the only way to salvation was by accepting our inherent flawed nature and submitting to a higher power?
Do you not see how this contradicts with your individualism doctrine?

You say Jesus helped us fight the pressure to submit to state or priest, if only he had gone all the way and helped fight the pressure to submit to god as well ...

patches70 wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

Have you seen The Man from Earth by any chance?

Army of GOD wrote:

patches70 wrote:
Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

look up "the historicity of jesus"

edit: actually i'll just link you to a wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Army of GOD wrote:

patches70 wrote:

Baron Von PWN wrote:Yeah I gotta agree if Jesus existed he was a pretty cool dude. Despite some of the crazy stuff attributed to him, the general message associated with him is a good one and worth sharing.

Any religion that actually cares about the people, would have no problem with anything Jesus taught. Even an Atheist, excluding the Love God message Jesus taught, would find nothing else wrong with his teachings.

Jesus was a cool dude.

And Jesus did exist. There was a man named Jesus who traveled and taught and was documented by numerous Roman and Jewish sources. This same man was also crucified. Whether or not he was actually the Son of God is the only real thing that is left uncertain. But the man Jesus certainly did exist.

The biggest problem is that Jesus himself never wrote a single word that anyone knows of. But what he taught, what is attributed as his teachings, are good and wise lessons to hold onto through life. I would challenge anyone to name any message that Jesus taught that they would disagree with in that what he taught about how we are supposed to treat each other.

I am interested in these sources. Care to share?

Hell, you can wiki Jesus and they have links to sources you can look at. Or you can look up these sources if you wish.

Josephus wrote of Jesus and he was a historian of the time. There were lots of other historians as well and the Romans were record keepers as were the Greeks. They all have sources of a man named Jesus who roamed the country teaching people and drawing large crowds. They wrote of how he was crucified and buried.

Josephus, or the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus. You can google and read for yourself what they wrote about Jesus. Today's historians mostly agree that Jesus actually existed.

What's nice about the non-bible references to Jesus is that they are written through the eyes of people who were not Christians. They merely wrote about what they saw and what they knew in a critical way.
Josephus wrote about the death of Jesus' brother, which he couldn't have gotten from biblical accounts as there were no biblical accounts when Josephus wrote about it.

Of what Tacitus wrote, it is believed his source was from official Roman records, possibly from Pilate himself about the crucifixion.

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian, wrote, "Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City." Chrestus is a variant spelling of Christ. Suetonius refers to a wave of riots that broke out in a large Jewish community in Rome during the year 49 A.D. As a result, the Jews were banished from the city.

A Greek historian, Thallus (you can look him up)- Thallus wrote about the crucifixion of Jesus. His writing date to circa 52 A.D. and the passage on Jesus was contained in Thallus' work on the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to 52 A.D. Thallus noted that darkness fell on the land at the time of the crucifixion. He wrote that such a phenomenon was caused by an eclipse.

Then there are the reports of Pilate- Two references have been made to a report by Pontius Pilate. The references include Justin Martyr (150 A..D.) and Tetullian (200 A.D.). Both references correspond with the fact that there was an official document in Rome from Pilate. The Pilate report detailed the crucifixion but also reported acts of miracles.

Then there is also Pliny (you should recognize that name)- Though Christ was not proclaimed a deity until the fourth century, Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator who served as the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, wrote in 112 A.D., two hundred years before the "deity" proclamation, that Christians in Bithynia worshipped Christ.

And of course, there was Tiberius who was the Emperor when Jesus was crucified. He received reports from Pilate and just a few years after Jesus was crucified asked the Senate to recognize Christianity. The Senate refused of course, and Tiberius probably only looked at Christianity as a sect of Judaism.

The Talmud mentions Jesus as well.-
On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."If Jesus had been stoned, his death would have been at the hands of the Jews. The fact he was crucified shows that the Romans intervened. The Talmud also speaks of five of Jesus' disciples and recounts their standing before judges who made individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. No deaths are recorded.

The Talmud also says Jesus was connected to Jewish royalty.- Other Talmud references to Jesus indicated that Jesus was "treated differently from others who led the people astray, for he was connected with royalty." These Talmud accounts were written long before the New Testament was assembled. They provide clear evidence that Jesus did live. The Talmud does not embrace Christ as a deity and would have no reason to sanction his existence. The Talmud also states that Jesus was 33 or 34 years old when he died. The risen Christ is the foundation of Christianity. But Christ would have to have lived and died before His resurrection could become an historical factor.

Then of course there are the hostile Jewish writing of Toledoth Jesu. Attempts to sway the non-divinity of Jesus. Though that was written long after the days of Jesus, what is important about it is that- The importance of this passage, historically correct or not, is to place Jesus in the tomb of Joseph after crucifixion and to record the consternation of the Jewish Priests. This places historic significance on the fact that Jesus did live and die in history


I would just as soon let you look it all up yourself and you'll probably find other sources as well. You will also find the occasional sources that claim it's all a lie. But the fact is, historians around the time of Jesus, as well as Roman records of the time, all mention Jesus the man.

Haggis_McMutton wrote:

patches70 wrote:

Army of GOD wrote:Patches, you're excluding a lot of pre-Christian religions, including, but not limited to:

1. Hinduism
2. Buddhism
3. Shintoism
4. Indigenous beliefs and religions throughout the world

Of course.

The bible tells of when Jesus was born and his very early life as a child. Then he disappears and returns in his late 20's. People wonder where Jesus was in that time between.

Some believe that Jesus traveled as a boy and young man. That he experienced many cultures that were not widely known or understood and when he returned he brought all that knowledge with him and taught a new way to look at life.

Have you seen The Man from Earth by any chance?

It's on netflix but I haven't watched it. Should I watch it?

patches70 wrote:

Haggis_McMutton wrote:Have you seen The Man from Earth by any chance?

It's on netflix but I haven't watched it. Should I watch it?

Don't really know you, so it's hard to say.

It's basically a bunch of people sitting in a room and analysing the validity and consequences of one of their friends claims(namely that he doesn't age and has been alive for ~10000 years).
It strained my credulity in some places, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of living that long before, so overall I definitely liked it.

patches70 wrote:

chang50 wrote:Your point would have more force if Christians had behaved a little bit more like they were supposed to over the last 2000 years.

And can you not see how you are projecting what Theocracies, States and the injustices individuals did in those times to blaming individuals of today who have never committed such atrocities?

Your obvious hatred of Christianity clouds you perception so that you assume Christians of today are like those of 2000 years ago.
You blame the mistakes of those in the past on those who live today.

It is very short sighted and bigoted if you think about it honestly....

Oh that tired old canard again,'you hate Christianity',I suppose it was due an airing.Can you not recognise intellectual curiousity,bemusement,bafflement?I want to understand the longevity and enduring nature of particular myths such as Christianity as opposed to the vast majority that rise briefly and disappear.Are you so emotionally invested in your beliefs that you have to automatically ascribe ill motives to any outsider who sincerely questions those beliefs?I hope not because it makes adult discussion very difficult..

chang50 wrote:

patches70 wrote:

chang50 wrote:Your point would have more force if Christians had behaved a little bit more like they were supposed to over the last 2000 years.

And can you not see how you are projecting what Theocracies, States and the injustices individuals did in those times to blaming individuals of today who have never committed such atrocities?

Your obvious hatred of Christianity clouds you perception so that you assume Christians of today are like those of 2000 years ago.
You blame the mistakes of those in the past on those who live today.

It is very short sighted and bigoted if you think about it honestly....

Oh that tired old canard again,'you hate Christianity',I suppose it was due an airing.Can you not recognise intellectual curiousity,bemusement,bafflement?I want to understand the longevity and enduring nature of particular myths such as Christianity as opposed to the vast majority that rise briefly and disappear.Are you so emotionally invested in your beliefs that you have to automatically ascribe ill motives to any outsider who sincerely questions those beliefs?I hope not because it makes adult discussion very difficult..

Yeah, when you grow up a bit and understand what discussions are, as opposed to referring to them as "adult" discussions, do come back and have a talk. Plenty of people to argue with, agree with, or have a adult discussion with.

Symmetry wrote:

chang50 wrote:

patches70 wrote:

chang50 wrote:Your point would have more force if Christians had behaved a little bit more like they were supposed to over the last 2000 years.

And can you not see how you are projecting what Theocracies, States and the injustices individuals did in those times to blaming individuals of today who have never committed such atrocities?

Your obvious hatred of Christianity clouds you perception so that you assume Christians of today are like those of 2000 years ago.
You blame the mistakes of those in the past on those who live today.

It is very short sighted and bigoted if you think about it honestly....

Oh that tired old canard again,'you hate Christianity',I suppose it was due an airing.Can you not recognise intellectual curiousity,bemusement,bafflement?I want to understand the longevity and enduring nature of particular myths such as Christianity as opposed to the vast majority that rise briefly and disappear.Are you so emotionally invested in your beliefs that you have to automatically ascribe ill motives to any outsider who sincerely questions those beliefs?I hope not because it makes adult discussion very difficult..

Yeah, when you grow up a bit and understand what discussions are, as opposed to referring to them as "adult" discussions, do come back and have a talk. Plenty of people to argue with, agree with, or have a adult discussion with.

What a bizarre outburst,it's my firm opinion that to say someone hates Christianity as a kneejerk reaction to any honest scepticism/questioning is somewhat immature,and I suspect you would not like it either.

chang50 wrote: What a bizarre outburst,it's my firm opinion that to say someone hates Christianity as a kneejerk reaction to any honest scepticism/questioning is somewhat immature,and I suspect you would not like it either.

Oh, forgive me if I misinterpreted your meaning. Are you saying you don't have a bias against Christianity?

chang50 wrote:Your point would have more force if Christians had behaved a little bit more like they were supposed to over the last 2000 years.

So for the last 2000 years, the entire span of Christianity, Christians haven't behaved? How are Christians supposed to behave?

I just read an underlying animosity toward Christianity in your post, and likely to all religions. In that post I see no "scepticism/questioning" at all.
You don't seem skeptical in saying Christians have not been behaving for the entirety of their existence.
You don't seem to be questioning your belief in on the ill deeds of Christians.
You seem to have lumped Christians in their entirety and ignore the individual aspect. As if judging just because someone is a Christian they must believe <This (insert whatever your perception is> instead of acknowledging that people are individuals and have their own minds.

You don't assume that this "Christians not behaving" as attributed to the teachings of Jesus, do you?
I mean, that is what this thread is about, Jesus. What misbehavior can you attribute to Jesus?
Certainly, Theocratic systems almost always lead to some sort of injustice or ill deeds. Those cases of "Christians not behaving" can be attributed to the merging of Church and State or the acts of fool individuals who do harmful deeds in the name of God. A phenomenon not exclusive to Christianity....