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Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:03 am
by jackal31
tennischamp5 wrote:..... They'll gain 200-400 points in the game... but then be right back under 100 within the week. I really have trouble believing that they're just THAT bad. ......


I think this is a great example of someone who plays, then an experienced player comes along and takes a game.

ie - A father who doesnt have time to play all the time on the site, but he has a young child (under 10 lets say) and the child is the one who plays all the time. So now, father plays a game at son's request and they bond. Father tries to teach son how to play and win, while son gives it a go again and comes up short. Now, father moves on with his life again, and son still enjoys playing the game, though loses time and time again. Does that make him dumb? I think he is just trying to have fun.

All this stupid talk is annoying. I can understand both sides of the argument, but now I think you guys are taking shots at each other personally because you dont want to understand the point of view. Anything could be taking place....it could be a dumb guy, it could be a mentally challenged person, it could be a cheater, but to penalize all those players without merit is not right in my opinion.

I think Fitz is asking for some type of consistency being we are in the wake of some very questionable incidents that have happened recently. Its a hard judgement, but who is to make that call. An investigation into each account would have to take place, and even then, the powers that be may not be able to determine if cheating is actually taking place.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:08 am
by SirSebstar
Herbas wrote:I find it hard to believe that people who win just a few games out of 100 would still stay at CC. ..............

I concur, but then, its all possible. just damm unlikely. But lets face it, i dont stomach it, i guess you don't either, but who knows. in any match there are always loosers.. some seen to really dont care

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:28 am
by AAFitz
Mr Changsha wrote:The trouble is that Fitz is the kind chap who eats tofu, wears sandals in appropriate places and feels 'The Guardian' is a bloody good read.

For Fitz, everyone is equally special...no one is as dumb. We are all just 'different'.

No!

Just as 'liberal leftism' will one day turn us all into vegetable eating lesbians, Fritz's brand of pernicious, softly softly nazism ''we don't kill the weak anymore...just those radical cheaters!!'' is a poisonous blend of polital correctness, quasi-socialism and mein kampf.

May this thread be the beginning of it. The appeasement must stop here. There is still time to destroy this Fritzian push, this cookian cleansing of quite diabolical proportions.

Remember that the greedy fascist is never really sated. Oh they will say 'up to 400 and not a foot further...I promise'' but then there will be another 'reasonable demand'. Before long we will be having the coroporals digging the holes and the hardy sergeant first classes doing the shootings, as the cadets and the privates get led to a horrible death...in the name of Fritz.

'Scoreboard Lebensraum'...truly this is the darkside of CC we see here before us this day.


Thats all BS.

This is a very simple situation to fix, and this list is just a partial list of the offenders for years.

The ones around 100 and certainly at 5 are absolutely, completely, and obviously point dumping. They do it for many reasons, just as many have reasons for spray painting buildings, and vandalizing property, but all thats irrelevant.

All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points. The people these people affect, are actually the ones at the bottom of the scoreboard. For those at the 2000 point range, its mathematically irrelevant if they have 500 or 1 point, so its the ones that are trying, that are being sabotaged, and terrorized by these rule breakers.

Again, its been pointed out time and again, and its embarrassing that its been allowed to go on for so long, especially given the time spent on a few cases that were decided "could be point dumping or game throwing...maybe", while three people currently have 5 or less points on the scoreboard. Again, its embarrassing.

Players have been doing this for years. Many on that list are throwing games, 99% on purpose, right now as we waste time with this discussion, and other random possible point dumping cases.

Protect the players that need it most. The ones that some are pretending to care about to have fun with a conversation, but whom they are enabling the real cheaters to exploit and ruin games every single day.

Warn the obvious ones. Ban the really obvious ones. Make a cap and solve this problem once and for all.

The situation is that easy, there are nearly no drawbacks to it, and it would take about a day to implement.

Until it is implemented, players struggling with the game, will be bombarded with players with 1, 20, 100, 200 points, and will win 100 points which they should never, ever, ever, ever should have been able to steal from the players actually trying, in or around the 1000 point level.

Stop protecting these cheaters guys. Protect the players that deserve to be protected instead. You should be ashamed of yourselves for allowing a little fun to cloud a real issue that affects thousands of players every day.
:roll:

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:33 am
by AAFitz
MichelSableheart wrote:It seems to me that simply enjoying the site but not really caring about your games, without intentionally trying to lose, can bring you into the low 100's.

If you don't really care about the maps and settings you play, you might just click "join a game" and pick a game from the list you see. You would end up in:

freestyle assassin on das schloss
Quads on Oasis against an experienced team
Quads on Woodboro against an experienced team
Triples on Jamaica against an experienced team

Any player with a strong grasp on the strategy of those maps and settings but without an experienced team to back him up will have a difficult time winning there. If you aren't good at strategy and have only 90% attendance, you'll probably get less then 1% win rate even if you're actually trying.

Should such a player be warned to pick his games more carefully? Probably yes. But I don't agree that such a player is point dumping intentionally.


Well, youre probably wrong. In any case, I dont even care what they choose for games or play. The point is they are intentionally losing them in many cases, if not most. The cap would eliminate the problem of this immediately, because there would be no 1 point to get to...to show all your cool friends that "look...im at the bottom of the scoreboard...im awesome"....which then turns into stealing 100 points from players that have been trying all along.

Youre simply looking at this hypothetically which is good, because it is meant to protect actual players, but realistically, you are defending breaking the rules, which actually is hurting many players that actually try.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:39 am
by AAFitz
Dukasaur wrote:I was never below 500, but for quite a while I was below 700 when I was new to CC and learning different types of game settings, etc. And I'm really not a genetic defective. Really.

Point being, that if in addition to bad strategy I also got really bad dice during that time period, I could have easily dropped below 500.


You're guessing, and probably wrong. No one is really saying its impossible that some could actually end up there by accident anyways....only that these players, especially the ones in the 200's and absolutely in the 100s probably are doing it on purpose, and obviously so.

The math at 700 is also completely different than it is at under 400. At 350 points, a player is half your score was even at 700, which is like me playing against someone with 4000 points. It makes the scoring ridiculously unfair, and its the players just starting out like yourself, that have been paying the price in points for years.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:56 am
by tennischamp5
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points. The people these people affect, are actually the ones at the bottom of the scoreboard. For those at the 2000 point range, its mathematically irrelevant if they have 500 or 1 point, so its the ones that are trying, that are being sabotaged, and terrorized by these rule breakers.
...
The situation is that easy, there are nearly no drawbacks to it, and it would take about a day to implement.
...
Until it is implemented, players struggling with the game, will be bombarded with players with 1, 20, 100, 200 points, and will win 100 points which they should never, ever, ever, ever should have been able to steal from the players actually trying, in or around the 1000 point level.


I support completely. A 500 point cap would fix quite a bit of this.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:30 am
by HaireWolf1
I have a solution. Start a league and only allow the aforementioned "stupid" people to play in this league. What this will do is elevate the smartest of the "stupid" people to a mediocre level they can be proud of. Make it happen!

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:57 pm
by KraphtOne
Well i actually took some time and looked at a couple of these people and it actually isnt that shocking to see where they are on the rankings after you see what games they are joining...

The most obvious would be
[player]HazardZero[/player]

who has a score of 1 and is the lowest on the board... (if you play him you actually don't gain anything by winning)

i'd say 99% of the games he has joined to play in are games that he has almost no chance of winning...

he is the player by which conquerers are made, because he only joins quad games on the front page against well established teams while partnering with haphazardly playing fools...

these people arent point dumping... they are joining games that they believe they will have a fair opportunity in, to play against players with high ranks...

little do they know though, that the deck is stacked so far against them that barring a miracle they actually have zero chance of winning the games they are joining...

and the players in the games they are joining know this...

and that's why they set the games up...

and one by one the new recruits become cooks, and slide down to horrible rankings... and fade away never to play again...

because who wants to play a game that seems impossible to ever win...

wait, what were we talking about? oh yeah something stupid...

Edit...
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points.


yes that's a brilliant idea... then no matter how many 8 player freestyles they join against blitz he will be assured at least a few points...

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:31 pm
by nippersean
So AA Fitz - where does your Dad feature on these point dumpers from hell??

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:35 pm
by tennischamp5
KraphtOne wrote:Edit...
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points.


yes that's a brilliant idea... then no matter how many 8 player freestyles they join against blitz he will be assured at least a few points...


shoot, you're right - didn't even think of that. They'd just become farms for the higher ups. Kinda sad, but its true. However, I still think something needs to be done.
I mean c'mon, I understand they're joining games they have no chance of winning - I did the same when I first started... I got utterly demolished two or three times, and then I realized 'okay... this is a bad idea... let me work my way up joining games without high rankers' ...that's all there is to it.

It's not possible to get down to a score of 1... and still not realize it. It's intentional. I mean c'mon... if he truly intended to gain points... he'd get a 100 points for a win against nearly every cc player in existence. He doesn't need to consistently play against the high rankers...

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:50 pm
by KraphtOne
tennischamp5 wrote:
KraphtOne wrote:Edit...
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points.


yes that's a brilliant idea... then no matter how many 8 player freestyles they join against blitz he will be assured at least a few points...


shoot, you're right - didn't even think of that. They'd just become farms for the higher ups. Kinda sad, but its true. However, I still think something needs to be done.
I mean c'mon, I understand they're joining games they have no chance of winning - I did the same when I first started... I got utterly demolished two or three times, and then I realized 'okay... this is a bad idea... let me work my way up joining games without high rankers' ...that's all there is to it.

It's not possible to get down to a score of 1... and still not realize it. It's intentional. I mean c'mon... if he truly intended to gain points... he'd get a 100 points for a win against nearly every cc player in existence. He doesn't need to consistently play against the high rankers...


they just simply don't know any better and don't really care to know any better... they click "join game"... and join the first few they see that they won't have to wait for the game to start...

these arent the kind of people that are checking forums and looking at standings...

they are literally killing time

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:50 pm
by AAFitz
KraphtOne wrote:Well i actually took some time and looked at a couple of these people and it actually isnt that shocking to see where they are on the rankings after you see what games they are joining...

The most obvious would be
[player]HazardZero[/player]

who has a score of 1 and is the lowest on the board... (if you play him you actually don't gain anything by winning)

i'd say 99% of the games he has joined to play in are games that he has almost no chance of winning...

he is the player by which conquerers are made, because he only joins quad games on the front page against well established teams while partnering with haphazardly playing fools...

these people arent point dumping... they are joining games that they believe they will have a fair opportunity in, to play against players with high ranks...

little do they know though, that the deck is stacked so far against them that barring a miracle they actually have zero chance of winning the games they are joining...

and the players in the games they are joining know this...

and that's why they set the games up...

and one by one the new recruits become cooks, and slide down to horrible rankings... and fade away never to play again...

because who wants to play a game that seems impossible to ever win...

wait, what were we talking about? oh yeah something stupid...

Edit...
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points.


yes that's a brilliant idea... then no matter how many 8 player freestyles they join against blitz he will be assured at least a few points...


You may want to take a second to do the point differential on what the difference between 500 points and even the low end of say 250 points would mean in a game...anyone lower than 250 has broken the rules to get where they are guaranteed, so its irrelevant, but I dont even think blitz will care about that extra point or two.

The people this affect are the ones that have the low scores, not the high ones. :roll:

AS far as talking about something stupid, yes...I agree...suggesting the many players have accidentally gotten down to one point, is absolutely stupid.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:52 pm
by AAFitz
KraphtOne wrote:
tennischamp5 wrote:
KraphtOne wrote:Edit...
AAFitz wrote:All that needs to be done, is a cap of 500 points. That way, there is no real pay off for losing points.


yes that's a brilliant idea... then no matter how many 8 player freestyles they join against blitz he will be assured at least a few points...


shoot, you're right - didn't even think of that. They'd just become farms for the higher ups. Kinda sad, but its true. However, I still think something needs to be done.
I mean c'mon, I understand they're joining games they have no chance of winning - I did the same when I first started... I got utterly demolished two or three times, and then I realized 'okay... this is a bad idea... let me work my way up joining games without high rankers' ...that's all there is to it.

It's not possible to get down to a score of 1... and still not realize it. It's intentional. I mean c'mon... if he truly intended to gain points... he'd get a 100 points for a win against nearly every cc player in existence. He doesn't need to consistently play against the high rankers...


they just simply don't know any better and don't really care to know any better... they click "join game"... and join the first few they see that they won't have to wait for the game to start...

these arent the kind of people that are checking forums and looking at standings...

they are literally killing time


Yes, they are killing time getting down to one point.... they just accidentally lost every single point... :lol: :lol: :lol: ...Im sure they havent checked the scoreboard to realize it either....Im sure when you point it out to them, they will be surprised as hell. :roll:

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:22 am
by KraphtOne
what did twain say about arguing with fools?

perhaps i should have known better than to add intelligent thought to an AAfitz post 8-)

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:30 am
by tennischamp5
I was debating just pming everyone under like 200 with a link to the society of cooks...

Image

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:02 pm
by perchorin
tennischamp5 wrote:I was debating just pming everyone under like 200 with a link to the society of cooks...

If you do, include a link to this thread please. I'd be curious what, if anything, any of those guys would like to say in their defense.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:23 pm
by AAFitz
KraphtOne wrote:what did twain say about arguing with fools?

perhaps i should have known better than to add intelligent thought to an AAfitz post 8-)


Yes, you would have to had to know better to add an intelligent thought to an AAfitz thread.

Youd have to be AAFitz to add to an AAFitz post.

Nice sunglasses. :lol:

albiestar - Point Dumping

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:17 pm
by Doc_Brown
Accused:

[player]albiestar[/player]

The accused are suspected of:
Point Dumping

Game number(s):

Game 9144649
(and others)

Comments:
First, I realize there is another thread that includes this guy in a long list of people accused of point dumping. This guy has joined one of my waiting games, so I have a particular interest in him. I also realize that it's a remote possibility that he's a bad player. But he also was down to 1 point a day or so ago (he's back at 13 at the moment). But, he has medals for standard, triples, quads, and foggy games. He's taken 83% of his turns, so he's not just joining games and deadbeating, but in the included game he does appear to be getting in the way of his teammate (again, it could just be very poor play on his part rather than intentional). But to get all the way down to 1 point is awfully difficult. And I think the historical chart of his score speaks pretty clearly:
[bigimg]http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chs=1000x200&chd=e:9f7x519c7E7a5Z382A..-J8Q6G322G354S245Q356U4v3M110jzdx9wbuDs6rlqkpyoxnlmhlslCkJlNkJjUivhvglgBfJeqd0dHcobwa6aWZuZSZEYBa11Cz5zoyiw6vXv8ucs.r2qypyojn5mhlmkrj2i9iWhshCgaf2fOehdmdNcrtTsNrDqIo.oHnRmWk2j2jGiOhEglfAeed6evd6dVcrcXbnbOasZsY5YxcUbfa9aZZpY5YSXqXDW1V3VYU2g.gSfUeedxdbcabfayaNaTZ3ZVYgX4XAWQVdUiVSVBUaTtWnWQU8Tyx9wbvXwVxNwEu4tkr5q7qFo0n5nDmRlTkHjMihjJiIhTifhjglgHe4d.djc5cMblasZpYrX7XqXfWNV3U-UDTWAA&cht=lc&chco=FF0000&chf=bg,s,E9EBE8&chtt=Score%20flow&chxt=x,y&chxl=0:|First%20game|Last%20game|1:|-458|1033[/bigimg]

Re: albiestar - Point Dumping

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:29 pm
by jefjef
Yes he is listed in AAFitz dumping complaint.

This player is in a trips vs me and has missed a couple turns (Not in sequence) but does appear to be playing to win with his moves.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:08 am
by Masli
merged the topics

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:27 am
by josko.ri
AAFitz wrote:Comments: The scoring makes it nearly impossible to get below 400 without intentionally losing games and dumping points.

all should be warned. all that drop below again should be warned. All that ever dropped below should be warned. A 500 point cap should be put in place. And any continued should be kicked off site as per new point dumping procedures.


it is fact that average points on the site is 1000. so, if going below 400 is nearly impossible it means that with the same analogy going above 2500 is nearly impossible. 400 is 2.5 times lower than average while 2500 is 2.5 times above average.

so, if someone can be so good player that he can go above 2500 (2.5 times more than avverage), it means that someone can also be so bad player that he can go below 400 (2.5 times below average).

from your analogy, does it mean that everyone who ever had more than 2500 score had also cheated? as chance to get above 2500 are statistically equal like chance to go below 400 points.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:58 am
by tennischamp5
Okay josko, let's apply your logic. Highest score in the scoreboards ever reached was near 6400. That's 6.4x the average. Therefore anyone below... 1000/6.4 = 156 is cheating. You're missing the point. If it was simply statistics... then getting below 156 should be as rare as getting above 6400. How does that explain the multiple players well under there, let alone those at 1s?

The point is maybe 400 isn't the 'number', but regardless, something fishy is going on with those all the way at the bottom.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:22 pm
by josko.ri
tennischamp5 wrote:then getting below 156 should be as rare as getting above 6400. How does that explain the multiple players well under there, let alone those at 1s?


it is different because player with 6400 cannot earn the same number of points like palyer of 156 can loose. for example, player who has 1000 points choose to play only 1v1 games, and plays it ONLY vs players who has score BELOW his score (is that against rules?). so, if his winning % is 50% (assume that he plays equal than opponent and that they both try to win every game), he will for sure sometime come to 1 point because for every his win he will earn less points than he will loose on every his loose. true? does he break any rule with choosing to ALWAYS play vs lower ranked opponent?

from the other side, if player who has 6400 points find anyone who has score above him, he would be able to do exatly the same, and to increase his score until unknown number. but, problem is, player with 6400 score CANNOT find an opponent with higher score than himself, while player with low score CAN find an opponent with lower score than himself.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:16 pm
by Chuuuuck
The average number of points among active players is MUCH higher than 1,000. Conquer club experiences inflation in points over the years they have operated due to the countless accounts that are signed up and played for a very short period of time and then quit.

It is easy to realize this when you notice the % of total users that are majors/corporals/brigadiers/generals has gone up drastically over the years as well as the players at the top of leaderboards have gotten higher and higher scores.

It would be interesting to see the statistics on how many inactive accounts there are and how many total points they represent below 1000 compared to how many are inactive that were above 1000 and how many total points they represent.

Re: many: point dumping

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:42 pm
by josko.ri
Chuuuuck wrote:The average number of points among active players is MUCH higher than 1,000. Conquer club experiences inflation in points over the years they have operated due to the countless accounts that are signed up and played for a very short period of time and then quit.

It is easy to realize this when you notice the % of total users that are majors/corporals/brigadiers/generals has gone up drastically over the years as well as the players at the top of leaderboards have gotten higher and higher scores.

It would be interesting to see the statistics on how many inactive accounts there are and how many total points they represent below 1000 compared to how many are inactive that were above 1000 and how many total points they represent.


you are right, I was wrong. I checked, and right now 55 players are below 400 points and 333 players are above 2500 points so my comparing was not good. but I have other argument which perfectly says why people with low points shouldnt be punished only because of reason that they have less points because:

josko.ri wrote:for example, player who has 1000 points choose to play only 1v1 games, and plays it ONLY vs players who has score BELOW his score (is that against rules?). so, if his winning % is 50% (assume that he plays equal than opponent and that they both try to win every game), he will for sure sometime come to 1 point because for every his win he will earn less points than he will loose for every his loose. true? does he break any rule with choosing to ALWAYS play vs lower ranked opponent?


they should be punished ONLY if it is proven their intention for point dumping, not just because of the reason that their points are low.