Conquer Club

Symmetry wrote:

Night Strike wrote:I clearly said "extreme Muslims", so obviously no bigotry involved.

Apologies- I misread that part of your post. I'll edit.

Cheers on being understanding you two.

We should also point out that the "priest" down in Florida could be consider an "extremist" also. Most American's/people don't do shit like that...intentionally pissing people off and offending them...

bedub1 wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

Night Strike wrote:I clearly said "extreme Muslims", so obviously no bigotry involved.

Apologies- I misread that part of your post. I'll edit.

Cheers on being understanding you two.

We should also point out that the "priest" down in Florida could be consider an "extremist" also. Most American's/people don't do shit like that...intentionally pissing people off and offending them...

Indeed. I'm all for free speech, but I can also see that he knew he was intentionally trying to get this reaction. I've tried to point out earlier that both sides are extremists aiming for the same goal. Religious war.

I'm really pissed off that he knew that doing what he did would lead to deaths, but he did it anyway.

It was exactly what the Taliban wanted.

And he did it as a publicity stunt. Who called the press about this? I'm sure plenty of Qu'rans have been burned before, but the guy was purposefully kicking a hornet's nest. Except that he's not even the one the hornets are swarming. What a pussy.

bedub1 wrote:

Gotta love religious extremists - Every faith has them

bedub1 wrote:

Interesting how photoshop can completely change the context of a message



Clearly the original sign would have said 'Behead all those who insult Islam' - Not 'Behead all those who say Islam is violent'

Now, I'm in no way advocating either of these positions - This guy is a nut-job extremist - But i think there is an important distinction between the two posters

radiojake wrote:i think there is an important distinction between the two posters

Can you tell me the difference?

bedub1 wrote:

radiojake wrote:i think there is an important distinction between the two posters

Can you tell me the difference?

'Behead all those who insult Islam' - Speaks for itself - This guy is quite intolerant and insecure and feels threatened when his religion is attacked -

'Behead all those who say Islam is violent' - This implies hypocrisy - Calling for a violent act in retribution for being called violent makes little sense - The poster has been edited to further bring the character into disrepute - Although this is really unrequired because the original message was abhorrent enough - Why was there a need to alter the original poster? It's dishonest and sets an ugly precedent

That guy who claims to be a pastor was exercising his freedom in burning the Koran, but simply because he is free to do so doesn't mean that he should. In fact, it was totally stupid and bigoted of him to do so (the same goes for the Westborough place). I don't see why he claims to be a Christian when he's going against what Jesus and apostles taught. And why does the media even give these tiny little "churches" so much attention? Obviously they're extremists and not representing mainline Christianity. Seems like spoiled children wanting attention, and the media has been falling for it.

However, even though that there's complete nonsense going on there, it in no way excuses the killing of totally unrelated, innocent people in another country (or the killing of anyone, for that matter). Although his method was wrong, that "pastor" did succeed in showing that there are Muslim extremists out there. He didn't have to burn the Koran in order to prove that, though; everyone knew it already.

It's just complete stupidity all around. Makes me a bit sickened and depressed about the state of mankind and fallen human nature in general...

Night Strike wrote:It doesn't matter. His speech was not saying he would go kill people or telling other people to go kill people, so it's legal.

Incorrect. There absolutely are and need to be limits to the free expression of speech, and there must be consequences for the use of free speech. Just as you cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded theater because of the danger it imposes on others, I believe the same logic could be used in this instance. This preacher was intentionally putting others in harm's way.

radiojake wrote:

haha the "god hates your tears" one is pretty cruel.

-TG

bedub1 wrote:

I can't believe anyone seriously believes that the holder of that sign is actually Islamic.

Ray Rider wrote:That guy who claims to be a pastor was exercising his freedom in burning the Koran, but simply because he is free to do so doesn't mean that he should. In fact, it was totally stupid and bigoted of him to do so (the same goes for the Westborough place). I don't see why he claims to be a Christian when he's going against what Jesus and apostles taught. And why does the media even give these tiny little "churches" so much attention? Obviously they're extremists and not representing mainline Christianity. Seems like spoiled children wanting attention, and the media has been falling for it.

However, even though that there's complete nonsense going on there, it in no way excuses the killing of totally unrelated, innocent people in another country (or the killing of anyone, for that matter). Although his method was wrong, that "pastor" did succeed in showing that there are Muslim extremists out there. He didn't have to burn the Koran in order to prove that, though; everyone knew it already.

It's just complete stupidity all around. Makes me a bit sickened and depressed about the state of mankind and fallen human nature in general...

While I don't believe in religion in itself, this story shows exactly what is wrong with most religions today. This supposed "Christian" in Florida did not act very "Christian like" by burning & disrespecting other human beings book of beliefs, knowing full well other human beings could pay a price for his actions. On the flip side these "Muslim extremists" took it to a whole new level with killing innocent people.
There seems to be Extremists in almost all religions and unfortunately these are the ones who usually make the news.
These are unstable people who can not grasp a reasonable thought within their own minds about their own books of religion and again it is unfortunate because they give their own religion a reputation that may not be deserved.
There is an epidemic spreading across our great country that is resulting in all Muslims being treated as if they are all murders or all believed to be extremists. It is very sad that we let one incident regress our country back 50 years to racism. We are doing exactly what the Extremists wanted, dissension within our own boarders.

mgconstruction wrote:While I don't believe in religion in itself, this story shows exactly what is wrong with most religions today. This supposed "Christian" in Florida did not act very "Christian like" by burning & disrespecting other human beings book of beliefs, knowing full well other human beings could pay a price for his actions. On the flip side these "Muslim extremists" took it to a whole new level with killing innocent people.
There seems to be Extremists in almost all religions and unfortunately these are the ones who usually make the news.
These are unstable people who can not grasp a reasonable thought within their own minds about their own books of religion and again it is unfortunate because they give their own religion a reputation that may not be deserved.
There is an epidemic spreading across our great country that is resulting in all Muslims being treated as if they are all murders or all believed to be extremists. It is very sad that we let one incident regress our country back 50 years to racism. We are doing exactly what the Extremists wanted, dissension within our own boarders.

Well stated.


Back to some of you others that are clearly promoting the pastor's right to free speech. What if he is telling his flock and the world that it is OK to molest and rape children because the bible says so? I am absolutely positive that you would all change your tune after children get raped, molested and perhaps murdered by unstable followers of this pastor. You would all be screaming blue bloody murder and to shut him up.

notyou2 wrote:

mgconstruction wrote:While I don't believe in religion in itself, this story shows exactly what is wrong with most religions today. This supposed "Christian" in Florida did not act very "Christian like" by burning & disrespecting other human beings book of beliefs, knowing full well other human beings could pay a price for his actions. On the flip side these "Muslim extremists" took it to a whole new level with killing innocent people.
There seems to be Extremists in almost all religions and unfortunately these are the ones who usually make the news.
These are unstable people who can not grasp a reasonable thought within their own minds about their own books of religion and again it is unfortunate because they give their own religion a reputation that may not be deserved.
There is an epidemic spreading across our great country that is resulting in all Muslims being treated as if they are all murders or all believed to be extremists. It is very sad that we let one incident regress our country back 50 years to racism. We are doing exactly what the Extremists wanted, dissension within our own boarders.

Well stated.


Back to some of you others that are clearly promoting the pastor's right to free speech. What if he is telling his flock and the world that it is OK to molest and rape children because the bible says so? I am absolutely positive that you would all change your tune after children get raped, molested and perhaps murdered by unstable followers of this pastor. You would all be screaming blue bloody murder and to shut him up.

I used to think those wackjobs that protest funerals should be silenced...but I have to agree with the supreme court. It's protected by free speach. Being "offended" is something that happens inside yourself, based upon how to take a statement somebody else makes. Yelling FIRE causes other people to do things. So in order to allow the wack-job in Florida, you gotta allow the wack-job's that protest funerals....even if you disagree with what they say. It doesn't mean what they are saying is true, or you agree with it, but they have the right to spew their trash just as much as you have your rights to spew your trash....

notyou2 wrote:Back to some of you others that are clearly promoting the pastor's right to free speech. What if he is telling his flock and the world that it is OK to molest and rape children because the bible says so? I am absolutely positive that you would all change your tune after children get raped, molested and perhaps murdered by unstable followers of this pastor. You would all be screaming blue bloody murder and to shut him up.

people do say this, and their flock is small because people realize that they are immoral.

well stated. the right to free speech as well as expression of religion is unlimited until it infringes upon the rights of another individual. we don't have to listen to radical ideologies, but that doesnt mean can't exist. in the case of the koran burnings, the pastor has not infringed upon any rights of others because he didn't force anyone to come to the koran burnings, nor did he do anything to directly harm other individuals. the violent riots in afghanistan may be attributed to this, but that does not make it unconstitutional. The pastor does not have control of the rioters' decisions, thus the koran burning in itself is completely constitutional.

naruto_uzumaki wrote:well stated. the right to free speech as well as expression of religion is unlimited until it infringes upon the rights of another individual. we don't have to listen to radical ideologies, but that doesnt mean can't exist. in the case of the koran burnings, the pastor has not infringed upon any rights of others because he didn't force anyone to come to the koran burnings, nor did he do anything to directly harm other individuals. the violent riots in afghanistan may be attributed to this, but that does not make it unconstitutional. The pastor does not have control of the rioters' decisions, thus the koran burning in itself is completely constitutional.

Under US law, this is all fair comment. Incitement to violence is illegal in many other countries, as is speech promoting ethnic hatred. I've got a lot of respect for US free speech laws. Not so much when the supreme court says that massive corporations are people, but that's beside the point.

The pastor, of course, did not directly harm any individual if you take a very strict definition of the phrase. He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

I guess I'll try my hand at a moral analogy, seeing as we've had a few. There's a button in front of you. This button will send a message. That message will tell a person to kill someone. You've been reliably informed that this is completely reliable to happen if you press the button. You have no reason to doubt that. You press the button. Do you bear responsibility?

Symmetry wrote:He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

I don't agree with that. Even if it IS true, the problem isn't his, but the people who killed other people.

bedub1 wrote:

notyou2 wrote:

mgconstruction wrote:While I don't believe in religion in itself, this story shows exactly what is wrong with most religions today. This supposed "Christian" in Florida did not act very "Christian like" by burning & disrespecting other human beings book of beliefs, knowing full well other human beings could pay a price for his actions. On the flip side these "Muslim extremists" took it to a whole new level with killing innocent people.
There seems to be Extremists in almost all religions and unfortunately these are the ones who usually make the news.
These are unstable people who can not grasp a reasonable thought within their own minds about their own books of religion and again it is unfortunate because they give their own religion a reputation that may not be deserved.
There is an epidemic spreading across our great country that is resulting in all Muslims being treated as if they are all murders or all believed to be extremists. It is very sad that we let one incident regress our country back 50 years to racism. We are doing exactly what the Extremists wanted, dissension within our own boarders.

Well stated.


Back to some of you others that are clearly promoting the pastor's right to free speech. What if he is telling his flock and the world that it is OK to molest and rape children because the bible says so? I am absolutely positive that you would all change your tune after children get raped, molested and perhaps murdered by unstable followers of this pastor. You would all be screaming blue bloody murder and to shut him up.

I used to think those wackjobs that protest funerals should be silenced...but I have to agree with the supreme court. It's protected by free speach. Being "offended" is something that happens inside yourself, based upon how to take a statement somebody else makes. Yelling FIRE causes other people to do things. So in order to allow the wack-job in Florida, you gotta allow the wack-job's that protest funerals....even if you disagree with what they say. It doesn't mean what they are saying is true, or you agree with it, but they have the right to spew their trash just as much as you have your rights to spew your trash....

True that. I just wish some of these wackjobs would use a little common sense and morality when speaking. Then again if they did they wouldn't be known as wackjobs huh?

bedub1 wrote:

Symmetry wrote:He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

I don't agree with that. Even if it IS true, the problem isn't his, but the people who killed other people.

Meh saying its his fault is stretching it a bit. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
My problem with the florida guy is what did he accomplish by burning another religions holy book besides stir the pot with Muslims. He also obviously has a misguided interpretation of his own Holy book if its in fact the bible. This is the biggest problem with religion today. They swear by the bible yet either don't follow it or change things within it as they see fit.

bedub1 wrote:

Symmetry wrote:He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

I don't agree with that. Even if it IS true, the problem isn't his, but the people who killed other people.

Well- he was told that it would happen by a huge number of people. Generals, world leaders, experts in the Middle East. There is a chance, of course, that he didn't believe them and truly believed that there wouldn't be any killings.

However, I think this is kind of disproved by the fact that he'd earlier threatened to burn it and then called it off. The protests against that threat resulted in deaths. I suppose there is a remote possibility that he hadn't heard of that, but we're really into the minor realms of probability here.

So, no, I'm pretty certain he knew that people would die based on the warnings he was given and his past experience.

His hands, of course, are as clean as Pilates.

Symmetry wrote:


The pastor, of course, did not directly harm any individual if you take a very strict definition of the phrase. He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

He doesn't know that. One can make a fair assumption, but one can't know that. That is beside the point anyway.

Just because the possibility may incite other people to violence that disagree with the speech is no reason to disallow that speech.

Martian Luther King knew his free speech was likely to get himself and/or others killed or injured. Should he then have withheld speaking what he believed?

symmetry wrote:Well- he was told that it would happen by a huge number of people. Generals, world leaders, experts in the Middle East.

Oh, he was warned. So was MLK, so was Gandhi, so were a multitude of others whom the world looks favorably on today but certainly had their detractors. MLK was branded as "radical" (so was Gandhi for that matter). But thankfully, he had free speech. You see, we have to be careful thinking "limit the radical's free speech". Radicals today, heroes tomorrow. Not saying the Pastor will ever be considered a "hero", he is a loony toon, that is my free speech. My opinion.

I think he is daft, but if I were to say he can't burn a book then I would be the truly daft one. I would be the tyrant trying to shut a man up.

Those of you quick to judge, quick to call for the limiting of speech, for shame on you.
I pray that no one ever tries to take away your speech one day, just because they may disagree with your point of view.

For you have something in common with the murders in Afghanistan that used this incident to commit atrocities. You and they are willing to use your own personal judgments to limit others.

Do not stink yourselves with such hypocrisy. Freedom of speech for all or no freedom of speech at all. Which one would you have?

patches70 wrote:

Symmetry wrote:


The pastor, of course, did not directly harm any individual if you take a very strict definition of the phrase. He did of course know that people would be killed if he continued. There really is no getting away from that fact.

He doesn't know that. One can make a fair assumption, but one can't know that. That is beside the point anyway.

Just because the possibility may incite other people to violence that disagree with the speech is no reason to disallow that speech.

Martian Luther King knew his free speech was likely to get himself and/or others killed or injured. Should he then have withheld speaking what he believed?

symmetry wrote:Well- he was told that it would happen by a huge number of people. Generals, world leaders, experts in the Middle East.

Oh, he was warned. So was MLK, so was Gandhi, so were a multitude of others whom the world looks favorably on today but certainly had their detractors. MLK was branded as "radical" (so was Gandhi for that matter). But thankfully, he had free speech. You see, we have to be careful thinking "limit the radical's free speech". Radicals today, heroes tomorrow. Not saying the Pastor will ever be considered a "hero", he is a loony toon, that is my free speech. My opinion.

I think he is daft, but if I were to say he can't burn a book then I would be the truly daft one. I would be the tyrant trying to shut a man up.

Those of you quick to judge, quick to call for the limiting of speech, for shame on you.
I pray that no one ever tries to take away your speech one day, just because they may disagree with your point of view.

For you have something in common with the murders in Afghanistan that used this incident to commit atrocities. You and they are willing to use your own personal judgments to limit others.

Do not stink yourselves with such hypocrisy. Freedom of speech for all or no freedom of speech at all. Which one would you have?

Cute argument Patches. I believe in freedom of speech, but I don't believe in it as an absolute freedom to say and do whatever you want without taking responsibility for the consequences.

But thanks for equating me with murderers, and Pastor Jones with Gandhi. I think your moral compass is a little off.