Conquer Club

If there wasnt a Jesus why would he be a prophet in Islam, and Judaism, as well as Son of God in Christaianity.


Is religion a worldwide conspiracy ?


lol


Yeah I beleive in the Bible and what it says.

Ham wrote:If there wasnt a Jesus why would he be a prophet in Islam, and Judaism, as well as Son of God in Christaianity.


Is religion a worldwide conspiracy ?


lol


Yeah I beleive in the Bible and what it says.

This confuses me. I assume you're a Christian because you say you believe in the Bible. But if you accept the Koran as providing proof of Jesus' existence, why wouldn't you believe the rest of the Koran, which says he wasn't God?

Ham wrote:If there wasnt a Jesus why would he be a prophet in Islam,

Islam was founded nearly 500 years after the supposed death of Christ. That's alot of time for a rumor to become accepted as truth. Moreover, that was simply an appeal to the Christians at the time. It doesn't speak to the validity of Jesus existence.

and Judaism,

LOL. Wut?

as well as Son of God in Christaianity.

This does not speak to the objectively historical validity of his existence.

Is religion a worldwide conspiracy?

You forgot all about Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, etc. etc.,

Don't be so arrogant to think that the only religions are the Abrahamic-Semitic ones.

lol

The people that I know that laugh when wrong or hurt are masochists.

Are you a masochist?

Yeah I beleive in the Bible and what it says.

Clearly, at the expense of greater intelligence.

Well, the Torah and parts of later Jewish Texts were adapted into Christianity and Islam (which all worship the same god, the God of Abraham)

Was he a real person? Most likely.

Was he influential? Definitely.

Was he the son of an all knowing all powerful supernatural spirit being who treats the universe like his personal ant farm? Don't be silly you superstitious caveman!

Backglass wrote:Was he a real person? Most likely.

I still can't see how people can accept this considering that a first person account of him, or the events which transpired around him, do not exist.

chances are he was a real person. myths dont just start they evolve over time from fact

Blueoctober wrote:chances are he was a real person. myths dont just start they evolve over time from fact

Do you have any objective evidence to provide proof for this statement?

What evidence do we have that he existed?

What evidence do we have that Zeus existed in some way of form? Or how about the plethora of creation myths? What evidence do you have that could back up this assertion that all myths are based in fact?

its actually common sense

Blueoctober wrote:its actually common sense

Your common sense evades me. Please, explain the reasoning behind it if it is so simple.

how often do you just make something up to explain something you dont understand?

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:

Ham wrote:If there wasnt a Jesus why would he be a prophet in Islam,

Islam was founded nearly 500 years after the supposed death of Christ. That's alot of time for a rumor to become accepted as truth. Moreover, that was simply an appeal to the Christians at the time. It doesn't speak to the validity of Jesus existence.

and Judaism,

LOL. Wut?

Is religion a worldwide conspiracy?

You forgot all about Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, etc. etc.,

Don't be so arrogant to think that the only religions are the Abrahamic-Semitic ones.

Yeah I beleive in the Bible and what it says.

Clearly, at the expense of greater intelligence.

Yeah jesus is a prophet in Judaism.


How was I being arrogant by not listing other religions. I just listed the 3 major ones and the base about what we're discussing.


I lol'ed because I wasnt trying to be serious about the whole religion conspiracy statement.


So just because I'm at christian your calling me dumb ?

Blueoctober wrote:how often do you just make something up to explain something you dont understand?

Never. Why?

Ham wrote:Yeah jesus is a prophet in Judaism.

Proof?

How was I being arrogant by not listing other religions. I just listed the 3 major ones and the base about what we're discussing.

You implied that the Abrahamic-Semitic faiths were the only faiths of valid concern do impart to their mentioning of Christ (although I found the Judaic mention highly suspect).

I lol'ed because I wasnt trying to be serious about the whole religion conspiracy statement.

*shrugs*

So just because I'm at christian your calling me dumb ?

No. I didn't call you dumb, or imply that you were. If I have something to say, I'll say it.

Your proof : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Judaism.27s_view

Innocent until proven guilty - until you have proof that he doesn't exst, he did. Maybe he wasn't literate? Ever think of that? I don't need to write stuff down to confirm my existence.

I request that a mod do one of two things:
1. Jamie's thread, "Did you know Muhammad was a homosexual?", be unlocked.
2. This thread be locked as well.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:I request that a mod do one of two things:
1. Jamie's thread, "Did you know Muhammad was a homosexual?", be unlocked.
2. This thread be locked as well.

This does not take pot shots a Christianity through a unintellectual measures, this is a discourse that is aiming at validating the existence of Jesus who was called Christ.

Ham wrote:Your proof : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#Judaism.27s_view

LOL. I guess you can't read.


If I may quote what you gave me:

Judaism holds the idea of Jesus being God, or part of a Trinity, or a mediator to God, to be heresy.(Emunoth ve-Deoth, II:5) Judaism also holds that Jesus is not the Messiah, arguing that he had not fulfilled the Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh nor embodied the personal qualifications of the Messiah.[86]

The Mishneh Torah (an authoritative work of Jewish law) states:

Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, “And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled” (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God. However, the thoughts of the Creator of the world — there is no force in a human to attain them because our ways are not God's ways, and our thoughts not God's thoughts. And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, and of (Muhammad) the Ishmaelite who stood after him — there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together. So that it is said, “Because then I will turn toward the nations (giving them) a clear lip, to call all of them in the name of God and to serve God (shoulder to shoulder as) one shoulder” (Zephaniah 3.9). Look how all the world already becomes full of the things of the Messiah, and the things of the Torah, and the things of the commandments! And these things spread among the far islands and among the many nations uncircumcised of heart. (Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10–12)[87]

Reform Judaism, the modern progressive movement, states For us in the Jewish community anyone who claims that Jesus is their savior is no longer a Jew and is an apostate. (Contemporary American Reform Responsa, #68).[88]

According to Jewish tradition, there were no more prophets after 420 BC/BCE, Malachi being the last prophet, who lived centuries before Jesus. Judaism states that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements set by the Torah to prove that he was a prophet. Even if Jesus had produced such a sign that Judaism recognized, Judaism states that no prophet or dreamer can contradict the laws already stated in the Torah, which Judaism states Jesus did. (Devarim 13:1–5)[89]

EDIT: And the Mishneh Torah wasn't written till nearly 1,000 years after his supposed death. If I may quote the wikipedia:

The Mishneh Torah (משנה תורה), subtitled Yad ha-Chazaka (יד החזקה), is a code of Jewish law by one of the most important Jewish authorities, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides or by the Hebrew abbreviation RaMBaM (usually written "Rambam" in English). The Mishneh Torah was compiled between 1170 and 1180, while he was living in Egypt, and is regarded as Maimonides' magnum opus.

WAAAAAY to far out of date to be an authoritative source that Jesus existed.

unriggable wrote:Innocent until proven guilty - until you have proof that he doesn't exst, he did. Maybe he wasn't literate? Ever think of that? I don't need to write stuff down to confirm my existence.

This is not a court of law, so your assertion that the same techniques be applied is invalid, never mind that history doesn't work off of who is "innocent" and who is "guilty". It's objective and non-biased.

Moreover, the onus is not on us to claim that he doesn't exist, it's on you to prove he existed. You claim he existed, we ask you to prove it in light of the evidence presented against you.

As for you literacy argument, this is a load of horseshit. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.

If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jersulaem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordon." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumberable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).

So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?

Then we have a particular astronomical event that would have attracted the attention of anyone interested in the "heavens." According to Luke 23:44-45, there occurred "about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst." Yet not a single mention of such a three hour ecliptic event got recorded by anyone, including the astronomers and astrologers, anywhere in the world. Nor does a single contemporary person write about the earthquake described in Matthew 27:51-54 where the earth shook, rocks ripped apart (rent), and graves opened.

Matthew 2 describes Herod and all of Jerusalem as troubled by the worship of the infant Jesus. Herod then had all of the children of Bethlehem slain. If such extraordinary infanticides of this magnitude had occurred, why didn't anyone write about it?

Furthermore, the contemporaries of the time write nothing of Jesus. Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E., lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).

If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels would lead you to believe, doe you think that at the very least the name and actions of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time.

It seems that the Christians prefer to fight an intellectually losing battle.

Religion-bashing is specifically mentioned in the forum guidelines, so I request that this thread be locked for questioning, mocking, and bashing a religion, Christianity.

Well, to you questioning Christianity is the same as bashing and mocking it, even though that isn't what we are doing.

Have you noticed that a mod hasn't locked it? Do you know why? Because this is a thread for the discussion for the possibility of Jesus.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:Religion-bashing is specifically mentioned in the forum guidelines, so I request that this thread be locked for questioning, mocking, and bashing a religion, Christianity.

Questioning does not equate bashing, and I dare you to find that the majority of this is in fact a bash at Christianity. If an Individual has bashed, I'll ask you to rationally explain why I or the others who are debating fairly should be punished for their own actions.

If you really want this to all go away, I suggest you come up with damn good answers to our points.

vtmarik wrote:Have you noticed that a mod hasn't locked it? Do you know why?

Yes, because I haven't contacted one personally...yet.

Caleb the Cruel wrote:

vtmarik wrote:Have you noticed that a mod hasn't locked it? Do you know why?

Yes, because I haven't contacted one personally...yet.

If you have this locked, I'll make a new one with the same points.

And another.


And another.


And another.


Until you give us answers to our legitimate questions.