Conquer Club

interesting thoughts....but what about the extra population that we have each year? just more people God creates?

well no... count out how many dies... theres alot more... maybe becuase they didnt devote their lives too god?

P Gizzle wrote:interesting thoughts....but what about the extra population that we have each year? just more people God creates?

Animals slowly going extinct I would surmise

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful comments (a nice surprise, really, as this thread has the potential to go south). And thanks for the well-wishes to my brother and family.

My own belief is similar to Stopper's. Like him, I've been under anesthesia before and that's exactly as I believe death to be: nothingness. In a way, I'm very envious of people like Jay who have such a deep belief that it provides a level of comfort and reassurance in answering the unknown. Whether he's right or not is not important - he's at peace with his beliefs.

I'd like to think that there's more to life than just what we are here on earth. But I've never been one to believe in ghosts and I'm not convinced there's a heaven or hell, in spite of my Catholic upbringing.

For those of you that do believe there's an afterlife, are you equating a soul with an altered state of consciousness? That is, are you aware of your surroundings as you were when alive?

Very interesting answers so far and it has helped me - please keep the thoughts coming.

Im coming back as a female.....

Im going to be a right slag, ill proberbly take it up the arse aswell.

ooooooo

Lapsed Catholic here, too, DogDoc, and similarly, I'd like to think there was something better, but I don't think there is any reason to think there is, and at any rate, nothingness would not be the hell some people make it out to be anyway - as it seems to me a sort of peace anyway. Sorry about your brother, by the way.

Normally, I'd think Blumoki's comment was inappropriate, but it's late Saturday night where I am, (or rather early Sunday morning), and right now, it seems to break the tension of the thread...

Just a comment on reincarnation. If it happened the population of the world would remain constant. However it continually grows. We are now over 6 billion people.

jay_a2j wrote:Just a comment on reincarnation. If it happened the population of the world would remain constant. However it continually grows. We are now over 6 billion people.

It does, however, seem that there are a lot of soul-less people in the world. Look at Idi Amin, Augusto Pinochet, Slobodan Milosevic, Osama Bin Laden, the guy who invented Pop Idol, serial killers, paedophiles, serial rapists, white supremacists, The Osmonds, etc.

jay_a2j wrote:Just a comment on reincarnation. If it happened the population of the world would remain constant. However it continually grows. We are now over 6 billion people.

true, but one can reincarnate to a different animal according to that belief, and many animals are decreasing in population, so you never know, it could be balanced. I dont believe in it, but i wouldn't rule out that possibility.

Reincarnation can also encompass other worlds and planes of existance. You can't only use Earth as justification for or against a religion.

I believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

al12 wrote:I believe that there is a heaven and a hell.

Please be more specific if you can. I'm interested in knowing what you think you'll actually experience. What is heaven? Is it a bunch of people floating around in the sky lounging on clouds and looking in on people on earth? Similarly, what is hell? Fire and brimstone with you stuck in a lava pit? And what will "you" be? Will you be simply a consciousness without any form or will you have form similar to what you were when alive?

Obviously, there's no correct answer here. I'm just very interested in knowing how others perceive death.

Genghis Khant wrote:It does, however, seem that there are a lot of soul-less people in the world. Look at Idi Amin, Augusto Pinochet, Slobodan Milosevic, Osama Bin Laden, the guy who invented Pop Idol, serial killers, paedophiles, serial rapists, white supremacists, The Osmonds, etc.

Last Sunday, my father and I gathered at his old boss' house to watch the Bears-Saints game. Not too long after the game began, he (my father) began having difficulty breathing. He wanted to go home; we wanted him to go to the hospital. In retrospect, I can't even believe we were debating something like this...we eventually called out an ambulance. It turned out that he was experiencing acute pulmonary edema caused by congenitive heart failure--a few minutes more spent "debating" and he would've drowned in his own fluid. This was, fortunately, the first time in my life that anyone that I hold dear has come close to dying (he's currently recovering). It made me reconsider the core of my beliefs. I found that I wanted something to be out there. I wanted a God...I wanted a Heaven...I wanted more...I wanted it desperately and selfishly. I wanted it for me...to help me cope. It's so much easier to believe that there's something better. That death is not THE end, but an end. I found that in moments of intense weakness and vulnerability, I grabbed at the nearest crutch I could find to lean on to make the unreal, yet inevitable easier to bear. Unfortunately, I can't hang on to it. Something prevents me from having enduring faith in the unexplained. I wish I could believe in something, but logic tells me differently. With that being said, I wish your brother (and you) well.

edmundomcpot wrote:I personally have never seen a ghost but my mum has.. everytime it appeared something happened to her family i.e my uncle crashed his car. When my gran died a light crossed the room and the ghost was never seen again. My mum did some reseach and it turned out the house was built on a old monastry burying ground.

edmundomcpot wrote:so how would you explain what my mum saw.

Your mother was a child. Children are prone to magical thinking (Santa Clause, Fairys, imaginary friends, etc). She saw what she wanted to see or saw something else that she attributed to the supernatural.

Damn. I really salute your brother's great struggle, and wish you the best with your own. I got close to the death of a loved one myself this summer, for the first time. It was... something.

It seems to me terribly wasteful to not believe in a plane of existence beyond that which you can look at. I can't even go to bed and wake up on time. I can't even cook my onions without burning them. I can't sit here and say with any confidence that reality consist of what passes in front of my eyes and nothing else.

Fortunately, I have taken large doses of entheogenic substances in silent darkness. The machine elves have taken me frequently and unwillingly to the edge of death, and cared not for my screaming. I have seen only the gate, and not the light beyond. It was too terrible. I have not the strength and they don't have the patience. They're exasperated with my inability to keep my apartment clean. Really, that's all they ever say... keep yer damn house clean, monkey man! I fail them. But what does it matter? they seem to say. He'll see it eventually, whether he wants to or not. He'll rise then, and be a hero. He'll have no other choice.

Here's all I've worked out: Death is a very hard thing to do. And then it is very easy.

Personally, I hope I come right back here. Life on the flesh plane can get addictive. I'd accept anything, really... even a bacteria must have some kind of reward circuit. I can work my way back up with anything to hand. I would like to have some kind of grasping appendage though. Truth seems much easier to hunt down when you're armed.

P.S. Some people doubt whether I can be serious, so I'd like to emphasize that this time, I've managed it.

I believe in God and that when I die that I will go the heaven. I believe that only your body dies here on earth and that your spirrit will go to heaven or hell. What hell precisely I don't know but you don't want to be there, and what heaven precisely is I don't know because it's so great and beutifull we can't imagene it.

Genghis Khant wrote:It does, however, seem that there are a lot of soul-less people in the world. Look at Idi Amin, Augusto Pinochet, Slobodan Milosevic, Osama Bin Laden, the guy who invented Pop Idol, serial killers, paedophiles, serial rapists, white supremacists, The Osmonds, etc.

yup, yup, yup...

Woody Allen: "I'm not afraid of death - I just don't want to be there when it happens."

al12 wrote:I believe in God and that when I die that I will go the heaven. I believe that only your body dies here on earth and that your spirrit will go to heaven or hell. What hell precisely I don't know but you don't want to be there, and what heaven precisely is I don't know because it's so great and beutifull we can't imagene it.

I'll go with this one. No reason to talk about the negative place so I won't beyond I think it's some sort of seperation from God and it's a choice.

I like to think of "heaven" or what ever you want to call the happy place as, somewhere you'll be reunited with friends and family you love. I believe in the concept that there's no sickness plenty of great food and drink including beer and wine. I believe the work is light and it will be a place of "things eyes have not seen and ears have not heard and which have not entered the heart of man."

I do believe Jesus is the only way to God but I don't believe going to church is the best way to him.

I don't think church is a bad thing, it's just religion tends to lead to bad things. Like the concept of exclusion because you're not in their particular club.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain wrote:for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

I notice that says all men, not all the members of (insert church that thinks they have a monopoly). So I think it's a little more difficult to get excluded than some people are letting on. Then again there are a couple of snags that religious people seem to ignore. It's possibly trickier to get in if you're religious.

I'll leave you with this.

Johnny Cash wrote:I wear the black, for those who've never read,
or listened to the words that Jesus said.
About the road to happiness through love and charity,
why you'd think he's talkin' straight to you and me.

jay_a2j wrote:Its not "damnation thumping" its reality. You are all relatives... created by God. And this is why I care.

I care too Jay, and as your brother I believe it is time for an intervention.



You see, while the question of the afterlife is valid, it tends to detract from life. Eternally seeking death in order to live in your concept of paradise with your concept of God is no way to live. The afterlife is not something one should consider when living life, as it can distract you from doing the things that you feel should be done. The concept of Heaven as a reward for living a good life is a dangerous concept. Example?

Suicide bombers are convinced that by committing murder that they are going to Heaven.
People who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors are convinced that they are going to Heaven for stopping abortions
People who ring your doorbell at 7 in the morning on a Sunday are convinced that by annoying you while you are trying to sleep that they will go to Heaven.

I don't live my life according to what some preacher or what some dubiously accurate books say. I live my life in a right and just manner, and if that is a bad thing then too bad. I'm going to live my life, and the rest of you nutters can wait to die so you can be one with God.



My concept of the afterlife? Being inside of eternity. Able to see and hear the things you missed while you watched the seconds tick by. Forever able to pursue the things you couldn't pursue because Life took all of your time away. It's a vaguely nihilistic thing to say that there is nothing waiting for you at the end, but at the same time it is the most obvious.

It's a big empty room, and you can spend eternity filling it with concepts and ideas, the things that matter to you, the things you never had time to try, and create entire universes in an empty realm of your own design.

It's an abstraction, and all you do is continue in abstraction for all of eternity.

My definition and attempt at putting it into words is a dismally futile effort. It cannot be explained.

In my Family we have the belief that when you get to heaven you get to play with the "Weather Buttons".

Valid enough since every time someone we knows dies the weather seems to go a bit strange.

Of course our minds will make the weather strange because of what we want to believe but..yeah...its a nice theory.

Kupo666 wrote:Death only affects the body- whatever the mind thinks, and the soul believes, will happen. If you believe in heaven, you'll go there. If you believe in hell, you'll go there. If you believe in nothingness, that's what will happen.

This is the least plausible explanation I have ever heard. What if I believe that I go to a nude beach in Tahiti and have perma-erection?

HoustonNutt wrote: What if I believe that I go to a nude beach in Tahiti and have perma-erection?

Your failure to mention beer and pizza makes me think it's not heaven.

that sounds to me as if you'd enjoy that. It would be your heaven