Is atheism a religion?

[Phatscotty]

Strong atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity, because there's as much evidence to support the existence of God as the non-existence of God. However, agnosticism is not a religion.

I have a problem with this argument. Christianity relies on a system of beliefs. It's fair to say that belief in a supernatural power, and not believing in a supernatural power are equally unprovable, but when you associate other beliefs with the belief in a god then I see divergence.

Christianity believes in a lot more than just a supernatural power. It's a whole system of beliefs. For example, the supernatural power is God, a trinity, with a son born to redeem humanity's sins. A creation, an apocalypse, an afterlife. These beliefs don't span naturally from a belief in a supernatural power.

In atheism, disbelief in a supernatural power seems to be the only major belief. It's not a system. Disbelieve in a supernatural power and Jesus can't be the son of a supernatural power, true, but that doesn't feel like it's a separate belief. Just the application of the original.

Symm, are you now or have you ever been a christian?

[Symmetry]

Please tell us more about atheist churches, I am puzzled by the concept.

Then you might want to shoot off an email or contact just a few of the following links.

http://www.factschurch.com/
http://www.hcof.org/
http://www.churchoffreethought.org/
http://www.meetup.com/HeathensDoItBette ... /12547952/ - take off your shoes first before you go in this guy's apartment, though

If you'd like to be an ordained minister of atheism .........

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

.........or you can find an atheist minister in your area

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/index.p ... your-area/

Atheism is religious

Just to fact check this one:

The first is just a website.
The second church is in a Holiday Inn.
The third is a monthly meeting group who mainly seem to schedule Game Nights
The fourth I have no idea about, as I kind of got fed up checking through this stuff.

You don't really take any of these sites seriously as anything more than parody, do you?

[Symmetry]

Symm, are you now or have you ever been a christian?

Yes

[beezer]

Just to fact check this one:

The first is just a website.

No it isn't. It's lead by Micheal Newdow, who is an ordained minister. If you click on some of his links to youtube videos you can see him struggle with the definition of whether or not atheism is religious. He says it depends. It's a website for an atheist church.

The second church is in a Holiday Inn.

So what? Christian churches meet in convention centers, public schools, and a variety of facilities.

The third is a monthly meeting group who mainly seem to schedule Game Nights

It's more than that. They have regularly scheduled services.

The fourth I have no idea about, as I kind of got fed up checking through this stuff.

That's not my problem. I was asked to provide proof. Apparently, atheists only say they'll believe in something if they see it. When confronted with something visual they dodge or spin the interpretation of what they're looking at to fit their worldview.

You don't really take any of these sites seriously as anything more than parody, do you?

Sure, I do. These atheists took the time to organize them. They are not parodies. Do you have some sort of proof that they are? Perhaps you're a bit uncomfortable now about posing the question and having to face the conclusion that your preconception is wrong on this subject.

[dwilhelmi]

My first thought was yes, absolutely. Atheism is a belief - a belief that there are no gods. Using the same reasoning as the court cases previously mentioned, I was reasoning that it was in fact a religion.

However, after reading a bit more into it, I am going to have to jump ship to the other side. Atheism is technically no more and no less than lack of belief in any gods. The popularly held image of atheists in general is actually more than what the word is defined as - when people think of atheists, they are thinking of only a specific kind of atheist - one who is completely lacking in all spirituality, is firmly rooted in the doctrine of the world, and that is all there is. Basically, I think most people think of secular humanism and atheism being one in the same.

However, there are many different kind of atheists. Including, I was surprised to find, very spiritual atheists. The only requirement is that you do not believe in a god - any other supernatural or spiritual beliefs are allowed. Similarly, theism, or belief in one or more gods, is not a religion either. It is a trait of many religions, but not a religion in and of itself.

[Symmetry]

You don't really take any of these sites seriously as anything more than parody, do you?

Sure, I do. These atheists took the time to organize them. They are not parodies. Do you have some sort of proof that they are? Perhaps you're a bit uncomfortable now about posing the question and having to face the conclusion that your preconception is wrong on this subject.

Once a month games nights in a holiday inn don't really cry out religion to me. Face it, they're discussion groups at best. At worst, they're games nights for atheists.

[Symmetry]

My first thought was yes, absolutely. Atheism is a belief - a belief that there are no gods. Using the same reasoning as the court cases previously mentioned, I was reasoning that it was in fact a religion.

However, after reading a bit more into it, I am going to have to jump ship to the other side. Atheism is technically no more and no less than lack of belief in any gods. The popularly held image of atheists in general is actually more than what the word is defined as - when people think of atheists, they are thinking of only a specific kind of atheist - one who is completely lacking in all spirituality, is firmly rooted in the doctrine of the world, and that is all there is. Basically, I think most people think of secular humanism and atheism being one in the same.

However, there are many different kind of atheists. Including, I was surprised to find, very spiritual atheists. The only requirement is that you do not believe in a god - any other supernatural or spiritual beliefs are allowed. Similarly, theism, or belief in one or more gods, is not a religion either. It is a trait of many religions, but not a religion in and of itself.

Thanks for this, I do think that some people have a very narrow view of what atheists do, or what atheists believe. I don't agree with everything you say- mainly on the point about supernatural beliefs, but it's a good point that many atheists are profoundly spiritual in other ways and in areas where many major religions try to claim they have a monopoly. Morality spring to mind immediately.

[beezer]

You don't really take any of these sites seriously as anything more than parody, do you?

Sure, I do. These atheists took the time to organize them. They are not parodies. Do you have some sort of proof that they are? Perhaps you're a bit uncomfortable now about posing the question and having to face the conclusion that your preconception is wrong on this subject.

Once a month games nights in a holiday inn don't really cry out religion to me. Face it, they're discussion groups at best. At worst, they're games nights for atheists.

Hopefully they're playing RISK. Anyway, as I already pointed out, they are doing more than having game night. They are having actual services and even encourage to bring the kids for their own version of Sunday School.

But if that's your opinion, I will leave you to it. This thread is open to all and I think that in addition to the court case cited before that most people recognize it is religious. My opinion is also that it is religious.

[Symmetry]

You don't really take any of these sites seriously as anything more than parody, do you?

Sure, I do. These atheists took the time to organize them. They are not parodies. Do you have some sort of proof that they are? Perhaps you're a bit uncomfortable now about posing the question and having to face the conclusion that your preconception is wrong on this subject.

Once a month games nights in a holiday inn don't really cry out religion to me. Face it, they're discussion groups at best. At worst, they're games nights for atheists.

Hopefully they're playing RISK. Anyway, as I already pointed out, they are doing more than having game night. They are having actual services and even encourage to bring the kids for their own version of Sunday School.

But if that's your opinion, I will leave you to it. This thread is open to all and I think that in addition to the court case cited before that most people recognize it is religious. My opinion is also that it is religious.

Ok, so let me ask you a difficult question- what could an atheist like myself do in order to no longer be religious?

[beezer]

Ok, so let me ask you a difficult question- what could an atheist like myself do in order to no longer be religious?

What do you mean by an atheist "like yourself?"

[Symmetry]

Ok, so let me ask you a difficult question- what could an atheist like myself do in order to no longer be religious?

What do you mean by an atheist "like yourself?"

Don't believe in a supernatural power, don't attend an atheist "church".

What else can I do? or not do?

[dwilhelmi]

My first thought was yes, absolutely. Atheism is a belief - a belief that there are no gods. Using the same reasoning as the court cases previously mentioned, I was reasoning that it was in fact a religion.

However, after reading a bit more into it, I am going to have to jump ship to the other side. Atheism is technically no more and no less than lack of belief in any gods. The popularly held image of atheists in general is actually more than what the word is defined as - when people think of atheists, they are thinking of only a specific kind of atheist - one who is completely lacking in all spirituality, is firmly rooted in the doctrine of the world, and that is all there is. Basically, I think most people think of secular humanism and atheism being one in the same.

However, there are many different kind of atheists. Including, I was surprised to find, very spiritual atheists. The only requirement is that you do not believe in a god - any other supernatural or spiritual beliefs are allowed. Similarly, theism, or belief in one or more gods, is not a religion either. It is a trait of many religions, but not a religion in and of itself.

Thanks for this, I do think that some people have a very narrow view of what atheists do, or what atheists believe. I don't agree with everything you say- mainly on the point about supernatural beliefs, but it's a good point that many atheists are profoundly spiritual in other ways and in areas where many major religions try to claim they have a monopoly. Morality spring to mind immediately.

The point about supernatural beliefs was merely pointing out that technically, in order to be atheist, the only requirement is that you do not believe in a god. If you believe in magic, or ghosts, or whatever else, you can technically still be an atheist, so long as you do not believe that those things are caused by a god.

For example, Buddhism is actually not specific to a belief in a god. It makes no statement on the existence of a god. That in itself is not enough to declare it an atheistic religion; however, it is possible to be an atheistic Buddhist, if one follows Buddhism and also believes that there is no such thing as god.
http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/buddhaatheism.htm

[Neoteny]

I approve of this thread.

It's fun to watch theists try to project.

[beezer]

Ok, so let me ask you a difficult question- what could an atheist like myself do in order to no longer be religious?

What do you mean by an atheist "like yourself?"

Don't believe in a supernatural power, don't attend an atheist "church".

What else can I do? or not do?

In my opinion, there's nothing you can do to avoid being religious. There's nothing any of us can do actually. We're all religious. Doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Atheist, Christian, or whatever. You have a belief system with elements that are central to how you perceive the world. They also affect how you view the afterlife.

You can eliminate God, but you'll insert something to take its place - your own values based on your own logic, your own perceptions, your own senses.

[Juan_Bottom]

I approve of this thread.

It's fun to watch theists try to project.

Kinda yes. But I also find it a bit annoying.
Plus, it really makes me involuntarily continue to distance myself from humans as I find out how dumb they really are.

Why bother.

We're all religious.

You definition of religious is "conscious."

Want to know my definition of retarded?

[Neoteny]

It's too bad luns isn't around to babble in this thread.

[Symmetry]

Ok, so let me ask you a difficult question- what could an atheist like myself do in order to no longer be religious?

What do you mean by an atheist "like yourself?"

Don't believe in a supernatural power, don't attend an atheist "church".

What else can I do? or not do?

In my opinion, there's nothing you can do to avoid being religious. There's nothing any of us can do actually. We're all religious. Doesn't matter if you're Buddhist, Atheist, Christian, or whatever. You have a belief system with elements that are central to how you perceive the world. They also affect how you view the afterlife.

You can eliminate God, but you'll insert something to take its place - your own values based on your own logic, your own perceptions, your own senses.

So, everything is a religion?

Thing is, I have a deep and abiding respect for religion. That might seem bizarre, but I genuinely do. I had my "religion is crap" phase when I was in my teens, but I got over it. Religion is beautiful, well thought out, often abused, but resilient within the core of believers.

Religion is not, however, everything. And not everybody is religious. To make that argument, you would have to call every kind of belief religious. I don't think that's true. I also think it's deeply wrong to call any belief held by an atheist a substitute for a belief in God, or gods.

To make those assumptions, you have to believe that religion is essentially equal to humanity, and in doing so you diminish both. In other words, I can never be free of religion, and your beliefs are inescapable.

I guess I should ask though, did you believe this before I asked the question? Or did this come to you now?

I ask because you asked me what kind of atheist i was, and before that argued that atheism was a religion because it has "churches". Neither my answer, nor your argument really matter if nobody can escape being religious, no?

[PLAYER57832]

It is as much a religion as any other belief. There are atheist "churches", but having a church is not a requirement for a religion. Only a belief.


Now, if you say organized religion.. that is a different story.

I've heard a couple of people mention atheist churches now on this thread. I've got to be honest, I've never come across one, and I've lived in quite a few major cities around the world. Is this a new thing? Where are they?

There was a group near here that got into controversy over one about a year ago. I cannot remember all the details, but it was a zoning issue. Because the group said it was a church, it made the news. According to the story, it really did mimic many aspects of Christian churches, but with atheism instead of Christ at the fore. (the mimicry was intentional because a lot of the atheists came from Christian backgrounds).

I also remember a lady down in Texas, quite a few years back who was objecting to prayer in school. (much later, her son converted to Christianity). I believe she started an atheist organization, though I don't know you would call it a church.

I also found a few websites that refer to atheist groups.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/at ... hurch.html

At any rate, if a group of atheists wish to call themselves a "church", then so be it. I would never, however, assume they spoke for any outside thier group.

[Symmetry]

It is as much a religion as any other belief. There are atheist "churches", but having a church is not a requirement for a religion. Only a belief.


Now, if you say organized religion.. that is a different story.

I've heard a couple of people mention atheist churches now on this thread. I've got to be honest, I've never come across one, and I've lived in quite a few major cities around the world. Is this a new thing? Where are they?

There was a group near here that got into controversy over one about a year ago. I cannot remember all the details, but it was a zoning issue. Because the group said it was a church, it made the news. According to the story, it really did mimic many aspects of Christian churches, but with atheism instead of Christ at the fore. (the mimicry was intentional because a lot of the atheists came from Christian backgrounds).

I also remember a lady down in Texas, quite a few years back who was objecting to prayer in school. (much later, her son converted to Christianity). I believe she started an atheist organization, though I don't know you would call it a church.

I also found a few websites that refer to atheist groups.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/at ... hurch.html

I'm sorry, but this stuff still sounds like a series of parodies. I don't think they're really to be taken seriously. I can only tell you that I've never seen an atheist church (as an atheist), and so far no professed atheist or agnostic on this thread has either.

Can I ask you to answer the same question I asked Beezer?

How can I, as an atheist who doesn't believe in a supernatural power, and doesn't attend an atheist "church", be non-religious? What should I do, or not do?

[LikeYestrdaysJam]

i dont think believeing in supernatural powers should be classified as atheist anyway, i certainly think they should get their own name i am sure there are some
and i dont think atheism is religous for most atheists i believe the majority of atheists just dont believe in a god so choose not to participate in the common practicers revolving around religion.
therefor it is an act of not participating for some, an act of being agaisnt participating for many (those who like me question christians) and i dont think either of those things can be classified as a religion
and doesnt a religion have to have some sort of deiety or system of beliefs i dont think atheism has that

[beezer]

So, everything is a religion?

Thing is, I have a deep and abiding respect for religion. That might seem bizarre, but I genuinely do. I had my "religion is crap" phase when I was in my teens, but I got over it. Religion is beautiful, well thought out, often abused, but resilient within the core of believers.

Religion is not, however, everything. And not everybody is religious. To make that argument, you would have to call every kind of belief religious. I don't think that's true. I also think it's deeply wrong to call any belief held by an atheist a substitute for a belief in God, or gods.

To make those assumptions, you have to believe that religion is essentially equal to humanity, and in doing so you diminish both. In other words, I can never be free of religion, and your beliefs are inescapable.

I guess I should ask though, did you believe this before I asked the question? Or did this come to you now?

I ask because you asked me what kind of atheist i was, and before that argued that atheism was a religion because it has "churches". Neither my answer, nor your argument really matter if nobody can escape being religious, no?

I believe every belief system is religious, yes. I think you're like a number of people who have respect for religions other than yours. I respect some things about Mormons & the Amish, but I would never agree with them. You're not bizarre for admiring something that you disagree with. At least I don't think so.

You are right that I would make the assumption that all belief systems are religious. But you did start this thread asking for peoples' opinions and I've given you mine.

I did believe this before you asked the question. I've had many conversations about this with my brother, and some of the other Christians on this website. I also agree that nobody can escape being religious. It's just a matter of what things you are going to base your beliefs on. You can't escape belief in something, whether it's God or your own morality & abilities.

[LikeYestrdaysJam]

So, everything is a religion?

Thing is, I have a deep and abiding respect for religion. That might seem bizarre, but I genuinely do. I had my "religion is crap" phase when I was in my teens, but I got over it. Religion is beautiful, well thought out, often abused, but resilient within the core of believers.

Religion is not, however, everything. And not everybody is religious. To make that argument, you would have to call every kind of belief religious. I don't think that's true. I also think it's deeply wrong to call any belief held by an atheist a substitute for a belief in God, or gods.

To make those assumptions, you have to believe that religion is essentially equal to humanity, and in doing so you diminish both. In other words, I can never be free of religion, and your beliefs are inescapable.

I guess I should ask though, did you believe this before I asked the question? Or did this come to you now?

I ask because you asked me what kind of atheist i was, and before that argued that atheism was a religion because it has "churches". Neither my answer, nor your argument really matter if nobody can escape being religious, no?

I believe every belief system is religious, yes. I think you're like a number of people who have respect for religions other than yours. I respect some things about Mormons & the Amish, but I would never agree with them. You're not bizarre for admiring something that you disagree with. At least I don't think so.

You are right that I would make the assumption that all belief systems are religious. But you did start this thread asking for peoples' opinions and I've given you mine.

I did believe this before you asked the question. I've had many conversations about this with my brother, and some of the other Christians on this website. I also agree that nobody can escape being religious. It's just a matter of what things you are going to base your beliefs on. You can't escape belief in something, whether it's God or your own morality & abilities.

yes but do athiests have a set of beliefs or is os just their own personal beliefs therefore not making it religous beliefs but just personal morals and life mantra, what that person wants to do with their life, i think athiesm is a much more personal thing and therefore not religous

[jonesthecurl]

Let me quote myself once again on this question. This is something I said two years ago and as yet I have found no reason to qualify or amend it. nor has anyone else.

I see no reason to posit the existence of a god or gods.
Without evidence for god/gods, and in the absence of any difference I can imagine between the universe as it presents itself to me and one which contains no gods, it would seem that to add putative god/s to the picture is unecessary and contrary to reason.

How's that?




This was my response to being asked to say why I am an atheist, without using the word "belief".
Please note that it does not mention "faith" either, and still works.

[Metsfanmax]

Strong atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity, because there's as much evidence to support the existence of God as the non-existence of God. However, agnosticism is not a religion.

I have a problem with this argument. Christianity relies on a system of beliefs. It's fair to say that belief in a supernatural power, and not believing in a supernatural power are equally unprovable, but when you associate other beliefs with the belief in a god then I see divergence.

Christianity is the faith-based belief that there is a supernatural power out there. Atheism is the faith-based belief that there are exactly zero supernatural powers out there. They are both religions; atheism just believes in one fewer gods.

Christianity believes in a lot more than just a supernatural power. It's a whole system of beliefs. For example, the supernatural power is God, a trinity, with a son born to redeem humanity's sins. A creation, an apocalypse, an afterlife. These beliefs don't span naturally from a belief in a supernatural power.

I mentioned Christianity in my post, but I was just giving an example of a popular organized religion. While those statements may be why Christianity differs from other religions, only a belief in the concept of a supernatural power is what all major organized religions have in common.

In atheism, disbelief in a supernatural power seems to be the only major belief. It's not a system. Disbelieve in a supernatural power and Jesus can't be the son of a supernatural power, true, but that doesn't feel like it's a separate belief. Just the application of the original.

I don't understand your arbitrary definition of a "system" of beliefs. Atheism is not the belief that Christianity is wrong, or that Jesus was not a divine being, although those are views typically held by atheists. It is the belief that there are no higher powers, that our Universe is all there is. The point is that as long as atheists cannot prove that God does not exist but still preach the claim that he does not, they are functionally no different from religious people.


jonesthecurl - That argument is not one of the atheist belief system. It's called agnosticism.

[jonesthecurl]

sure. I'm as unsure about there being no gods as I'm unsure about evolution.