Conquer Club

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The Rasmussen Reports poll found 70 percent of likely voters in Arizona back the bill, which cleared the state Legislature this week and awaits the governor's signature, despite concerns about potential civil rights violations.

The survey found 53 percent of voters are worried that immigrants' civil rights could be infringed in the effort to find and deport illegal immigrants. Forty-six percent were not concerned about that possibility.

... Will of the people. And they have a greater stake in this than any of us (unless of course you are posting from Arizona).

... I agree that there are potentially some very serious civil rights issues with citizens of Hispanic descent. Apparently they are outnumbered by illegals to the point where this law still got signed.

...

Nobunaga wrote:...

The Rasmussen Reports poll found 70 percent of likely voters in Arizona back the bill, which cleared the state Legislature this week and awaits the governor's signature, despite concerns about potential civil rights violations.

The survey found 53 percent of voters are worried that immigrants' civil rights could be infringed in the effort to find and deport illegal immigrants. Forty-six percent were not concerned about that possibility.

... Will of the people. And they have a greater stake in this than any of us (unless of course you are posting from Arizona).

People voted in Hitler, too. Sometimes the people are just, plain wrong. This is one of those cases.

Nobunaga wrote:... I agree that there are potentially some very serious civil rights issues with citizens of Hispanic descent. Apparently they are outnumbered by illegals to the point where this law still got signed.

First, it is NOT only about hispanics. People come here illegally from all countries and if you think the local cops are going to stop at harassing their "favorite target" for these "perfectly legitimate reasons", you are dreaming! Talk to any old hippie about cops and harassment.

Your last sentence is just ridiculous. Its not the numbers, its the power. These people are like a forester so busy cutting out tree roots for fear of tripping that they forget to look up and see these roots are holding up the trees above.

bradleybadly wrote:

spurgistan wrote:Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

Why don't you ask the cops who will be enforcing the law? Which is why this law will be prejudiced to the point of possible unconstitutionality.

bradleybadly wrote:

spurgistan wrote:Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

Hint: They look just like anyone else.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

spurgistan wrote:Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

Hint: They look just like anyone else.

That was Bradley's point, I'm pretty sure.

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

spurgistan wrote:Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

Hint: They look just like anyone else.

That was Bradley's point, I'm pretty sure.

You are correct, I believe. I should have gone back to the original post.. my bad.

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

spurgistan wrote:Also: a bunch of people who will never be hassled for vaguely resembling an illegal immigrant.

Please enlighten us all as to what an illegal immigrant looks like

Hint: They look just like anyone else.

That was Bradley's point, I'm pretty sure.

and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

Yeah, but that's true of DUI check points and a lot of other things too..

GabonX wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

Yeah, but that's true of DUI check points and a lot of other things too..

Except there is a big difference between catching people who are driving drunk and "catching" people who just don't happen to have proof of citizenship on their person. At a checkpoint, someone has to show evidence of insobriety before they can be held. You can even demand a blood test in most states, meaning there has to be proof before you can be taken in jail. In this case, you have to prove you are a citizen. However, how many of us are really and able to do that when we are just driving or walking around? Take problems with the "no fly" list and magnify them.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

no. i guarantee that a disproportionate amount of hispanics will be unfairly arrested on suspicion of being illegal aliens than any other ethnicity. even the language of the law encourages racial profiling.

SultanOfSurreal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

no. i guarantee that a disproportionate amount of hispanics will be unfairly arrested on suspicion of being illegal aliens than any other ethnicity. even the language of the law encourages racial profiling.

Sounds to me like someone's skeert. Are you a closet Mexican?


Honibaz

SultanOfSurreal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

no. i guarantee that a disproportionate amount of hispanics will be unfairly arrested on suspicion of being illegal aliens than any other ethnicity. even the language of the law encourages racial profiling.

I don't disagree. I just say the problem won't be limited to them. Because a number of posters here will or have more or less dismissed the racial argument as semi-justified, that is why I emphasise that this will actually affect everyone.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

no. i guarantee that a disproportionate amount of hispanics will be unfairly arrested on suspicion of being illegal aliens than any other ethnicity. even the language of the law encourages racial profiling.

I don't disagree. I just say the problem won't be limited to them. Because a number of posters here will or have more or less dismissed the racial argument as semi-justified, that is why I emphasise that this will actually affect everyone.

I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

spurgistan wrote:I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

No, but I could see them harassing people they just don't like (perhaps folks like b.k.) which they would be legally allowed to do.

hecter wrote:

spurgistan wrote:I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

No, but I could see them harassing people they just don't like (perhaps folks like b.k.) which they would be legally allowed to do.

Also anybody with a "strange accent".

hecter wrote:

spurgistan wrote:I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

No, but I could see them harassing people they just don't like (perhaps folks like b.k.) which they would be legally allowed to do.

You had to bring that up . . .


Honibaz

b.k. barunt wrote:

hecter wrote:

spurgistan wrote:I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

No, but I could see them harassing people they just don't like (perhaps folks like b.k.) which they would be legally allowed to do.

You had to bring that up . . .


Honibaz

Well, I doubt these people would figure that a law like this would affect even the white and elderly and, even still, accent-less.

hecter wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:

hecter wrote:

spurgistan wrote:I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

No, but I could see them harassing people they just don't like (perhaps folks like b.k.) which they would be legally allowed to do.

You had to bring that up . . .


Honibaz

Well, I doubt these people would figure that a law like this would affect even the white and elderly and, even still, accent-less.

I think that it ought to (Russian and Canadian illegals are no more welcome here than Latin American illegals, I would say) but that it won't.

Yeah what about all those fooking Canadian illegals that just waltz in here?


Honibaz

spurgistan wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

no. i guarantee that a disproportionate amount of hispanics will be unfairly arrested on suspicion of being illegal aliens than any other ethnicity. even the language of the law encourages racial profiling.

I don't disagree. I just say the problem won't be limited to them. Because a number of posters here will or have more or less dismissed the racial argument as semi-justified, that is why I emphasise that this will actually affect everyone.

I just don't see AZ cops hassling possible Russian or Canadian illegals for documentation, if that's what you're implying.

Yes but you have to be an idiot if you think that Russian or Canadian Illegals are the one's shutting down hospitals and schools in Arizona.
Case in point, A new school opened in 2009 that fit 1,000 students. In 2010, 1,180 students showed up, despite the city population officially staying flat.

Phatscotty wrote:Yes but you have to be an idiot if you think that Russian or Canadian Illegals are the one's shutting down hospitals and schools in Arizona.
Case in point, A new school opened in 2009 that fit 1,000 students. In 2010, 1,180 students showed up, despite the city population officially staying flat.

Wow... That proves... nothing? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Arizona has a large amount of illegal immigrants in the country, but saying that more kids show up for school than the school holds, well... That's a common problem. Here in my city as well, a lot of schools are over their limit, class rooms are generally filled (over filled) as the portables, and we sure as hell don't have an illegal immigrant problem.

hecter wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:Yes but you have to be an idiot if you think that Russian or Canadian Illegals are the one's shutting down hospitals and schools in Arizona.
Case in point, A new school opened in 2009 that fit 1,000 students. In 2010, 1,180 students showed up, despite the city population officially staying flat.

Wow... That proves... nothing? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Arizona has a large amount of illegal immigrants in the country, but saying that more kids show up for school than the school holds, well... That's a common problem. Here in my city as well, a lot of schools are over their limit, class rooms are generally filled (over filled) as the portables, and we sure as hell don't have an illegal immigrant problem.

Miss the point much? The school was apparently brand new, meaning they had most probably built the school to hold more people than were projected to be in the district the first year of being open. Even when the district's population stayed the same, the school was mysteriously 18% over capacity. That either meant poor planning or too many illegals showing up (and therefore never paid property taxes, which is how school's know how many people are in their district), and in this case, I'm guessing the latter is more likely.

hecter wrote:

Phatscotty wrote:Yes but you have to be an idiot if you think that Russian or Canadian Illegals are the one's shutting down hospitals and schools in Arizona.
Case in point, A new school opened in 2009 that fit 1,000 students. In 2010, 1,180 students showed up, despite the city population officially staying flat.

Wow... That proves... nothing? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure Arizona has a large amount of illegal immigrants in the country, but saying that more kids show up for school than the school holds, well... That's a common problem. Here in my city as well, a lot of schools are over their limit, class rooms are generally filled (over filled) as the portables, and we sure as hell don't have an illegal immigrant problem.

you missed the point. the schools can not even begin to plan on how many students will be arriving from one year to the next. I know this happens in districts all across the country. But we both know this is completely different.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

GabonX wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

SultanOfSurreal wrote:and the point spurgistan was making is that this law will inevitably lead to racial profiling and the unjust imprisonment of citizens on the basis of skin color

True, but the problem won't be limited to specific groups. Anybody who police wish to target can be targeted.

Yeah, but that's true of DUI check points and a lot of other things too..

Except there is a big difference between catching people who are driving drunk and "catching" people who just don't happen to have proof of citizenship on their person.

Not really, aside from the implications of your selective quoting

At a checkpoint, someone has to show evidence of insobriety before they can be held.

No they don't..

In fact they can actually hold you on the grounds that alcohol may still be being released into your blood stream. Also, if they ask you to take a sobriety test, you have to take it whatever the reason.

You can even demand a blood test in most states, meaning there has to be proof before you can be taken in jail.

I think you've got this backwards. They can demand that you submit to a blood test, but if you request a blood test after blowing positive and the blood test shows that you're under the limit, they can state that your body neutralized the alcohol in the duration between tests.

In this case, you have to prove you are a citizen. However, how many of us are really and able to do that when we are just driving or walking around? Take problems with the "no fly" list and magnify them.

I can prove my citizenship, or at least my residency much more easily than I can prove my sobriety as I always have at least to forms of state identification on me.. My drivers license and my license to carry.

The fact is, at least in PA, that if you are driving a car a police officer can detain you and force you to submit to a blood test. If you refuse, you're given the maximum penalty for DUI as you're assumed to be guilty..

I have a friend that was driving home in York and he got pulled over. The Police officer breathalised him through the window of his car and he blew under. The officer pulled him out and made him perform a number of sobriety tests, all of which he passed, before breathalising him again. He blew under again, the the officer forced him to come to a hospital and submit to a blood test.
The test revealed that he had smoked Marijuana at some point in the last month (he hadn't smoked that day) but because the metabolites? were in his system the officer issued a DUI on those grounds..

..He's going through hell fighting it.


The bottom line is that as it stands, if you drive a car a police officer can detain you, transport you to a hospital, and force you to submit to a blood test. If that test reveals that you've consumed drugs which have not been prescribed to you at any point, you can and probably will receive a DUI.

DUI checks enable police to detain people without probable cause, and as it stands it is absolutely comparable to the proposed law in Arizona.

It's actually probably worse..