Conquer Club

warmonger1981 wrote:I said China will not be free market capitalist. I believe more fascist in the future.

These two aren't mutually exclusive.

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:They've bailed out the French, German and Italian banks. The Greeks are still in a lot of debt. Nothing has changed.

This isnt an action of compassion, its saving their own skins. Nigel has a point

You mean like when the UK did not want to help out other countries but when their own banks were at risk, they were suddenly willing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-11-28/ireland-wins-eu85-billion-aid-germany-drops-threat-on-bonds

British Loan

Close banking links led Britain, a non-euro user that didn’t contribute to Greece’s 110 billion-euro rescue in May, to contribute 3.8 billion euros to Ireland’s package.

Now believe me, I'm not complaining. I think it's perfectly normal for a country to want to save itself.

waauw wrote:

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:They've bailed out the French, German and Italian banks. The Greeks are still in a lot of debt. Nothing has changed.

This isnt an action of compassion, its saving their own skins. Nigel has a point

You mean like when the UK did not want to help out other countries but when their own banks were at risk, they were suddenly willing.

I'm not complaining either, I just wish people would admit what is actually going on. We didnt help the Irish because of the Eurozone or anything else, our economy is too linked to the Irish to let them fail.

i think the bailout lenders have all been fairly open about wanting to save Greece in order to avoid the damage to the Eurozone that would be caused by a Greek default and/or Grexit.

mrswdk wrote:i think the bailout lenders have all been fairly open about wanting to save Greece in order to avoid the damage to the Eurozone that would be caused by a Greek default and/or Grexit.

If you have ill tooth you try to fix it, if you cant, you get it out. This is third time EU is fixing its tooth.
Its up to EU when they should remove it... But if someone think that EU will be worse without the tooth they are mistaking, it will be incomparably better

The problem is that imposed policy of austerity already destroyed the Greek economy. The things to be even more serious those austerity policies didn't yield any results the last five and a half years, I wonder why someone from EU is even hoping that they will work now?

In my eyes in EU everyone is only carrying about its priorities but not for the priorities of the union. That kind of union is doomed to fail.

GoranZ wrote:

mrswdk wrote:i think the bailout lenders have all been fairly open about wanting to save Greece in order to avoid the damage to the Eurozone that would be caused by a Greek default and/or Grexit.

If you have ill tooth you try to fix it, if you cant, you get it out. This is third time EU is fixing its tooth.
Its up to EU when they should remove it... But if someone think that EU will be worse without the tooth they are mistaking, it will be incomparably better

Lamentably I agree. I'm guessing this is just a way to show Merkel has won, but Hollande doesn't lose face

The Eurozone needs to face up to the fact that with the Mediterranean countries (and arguably also France) being the way they are, something major needs to change. Either proper fiscal integration and imposed discipline or the removal of a few warts.

People keep going on about how a Grexit would reflect poorly on the Eurozone, but if Greece was being removed due to its inability to meet the fiscal standards which it ought to meet then this would reassure creditors and investors that the Eurozone is a serious, disciplined organization. IMO this desperation to keep a poorly run economy within the zone looks worse than getting rid of it would.

waauw wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

mrswdk wrote:i think the bailout lenders have all been fairly open about wanting to save Greece in order to avoid the damage to the Eurozone that would be caused by a Greek default and/or Grexit.

If you have ill tooth you try to fix it, if you cant, you get it out. This is third time EU is fixing its tooth.
Its up to EU when they should remove it... But if someone think that EU will be worse without the tooth they are mistaking, it will be incomparably better

Lamentably I agree. I'm guessing this is just a way to show Merkel has won, but Hollande doesn't lose face

No no no, in this case everyone lost, Germany, France, EU, Greece... and all that because of pride. Idiots, all of them.

Greece is drowning in debt, adding more debt will not save her. Greece already had 2 savings so far, both didn't worked, and those are 2 mistakes from EU(not Greece), EU can try third time but it wont work.
Greece has too big debt now, Greek debt can not be repayed by Greece, so what EU is doing? Adding even bigger debt

Is it possible Greece privatizes most of its government utilities or assets?

GoranZ wrote:Greece is drowning in debt, adding more debt will not save her. Greece already had 2 savings so far, both didn't worked, and those are 2 mistakes from EU(not Greece), EU can try third time but it wont work.

from these 2 savings almost all moneys went to french and german banks.

GoranZ wrote:Greece has too big debt now, Greek debt can not be repayed by Greece, so what EU is doing? Adding even bigger debt

too big debt? bog debt have Japan, USA, Italy... it is about ill financial system - everything is based on debt. and on financial gamble.

warmonger1981 wrote:Is it possible Greece privatizes most of its government utilities or assets?

yes it is. and this is the core what they (banksters) want. under their controll privatize all greece.

Oneyed

They should privatize the army and make their first mission finding El Chapo.

Bank is open. You can take out $60.

2dimes wrote:Bank is open. You can take out $60.

you mean euros.

waauw wrote:

2dimes wrote:Bank is open. You can take out $60.

you mean euros.

I suppose I did make that error. Oops.

It's time the EU let in Turkey, otherwise Turkey will have to let itself in.

Turkey buzzes weakened Greece

Turkish fighter jets and military helicopters have dramatically increased their incursions into Greek airspace, according to a study based on data from the Greek military, forcing the cash-strapped Greek air force to respond.

Greece’s disastrous finances may, however, have encouraged Turkey to tease its long-time foe (and NATO ally) a bit more than usual, as every Hellenic Air Force scramble costs Greece precious euros.

Turkey is in the midst of an extremely ambitious air force modernization program that has already seen it upgrade its existing fleet of over 100 F-16 fighter jets. In January, the government approved the purchase of four new F-35 Lockheed Martin fighter jets as well as five Boeing Chinook helicopters; it plans to buy a total of 100 F-35s.

Meanwhile, Greece’s military has seen spending shrivel in recent years, and the government had to fend off demands from Greece’s creditors for more steep cuts during recent bailout negotiations.

http://www.politico.eu/article/turkey-b ... -airspace/

Turkey is probably never going to enter the EU, however much american presidents ask for it.

waauw wrote:Turkey is probably never going to enter the EU, however much american presidents ask for it.

That depends how much Western Europe will remain land of dominant Christian population... After all Muslim minorities in Western countries would eventually like large Muslim country in Europe
Atm dominance of Christian population in Western Europe is diluting at alarming rate

GoranZ wrote:

waauw wrote:Turkey is probably never going to enter the EU, however much american presidents ask for it.

That depends how much Western Europe will remain land of dominant Christian population... After all Muslim minorities in Western countries would eventually like large Muslim country in Europe
Atm dominance of Christian population in Western Europe is diluting at alarming rate

Keep in mind that every nation within the EU is allowed to veto applicant nations. If ever Turkey wants to join, this rule would have to disappear.
Example: Greece opposing Macedonian relations with the EU.

waauw wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

waauw wrote:Turkey is probably never going to enter the EU, however much american presidents ask for it.

That depends how much Western Europe will remain land of dominant Christian population... After all Muslim minorities in Western countries would eventually like large Muslim country in Europe
Atm dominance of Christian population in Western Europe is diluting at alarming rate

Keep in mind that every nation within the EU is allowed to veto applicant nations. If ever Turkey wants to join, this rule would have to disappear.
Example: Greece opposing Macedonian relations with the EU.

And probably those Western European Muslims that will face such defeat will remember the defeat they faced and will retaliate eventually.

What you said about Greece and Macedonia is perfect example of why Europe's dream is dying.
Example 1: Macedonia started to build North-South Highway in 1980's as part of Yugoslavia. That highway will be finally finished in 2016, but it could have been finished in 2006 or much sooner. As a result almost every merchandise coming from Serbia(and every country north of it) takes longer to arrive in Greece and vice verse. So if a company in Greece is making some train for example and it is using some parts from Serbia for it, they would most likely arrive later and be more expensive. This wont cost Greece a lot on small scale but overall the economy is less productive and the products are less competitive(because they are more expensive). As a result in a period of over a decade greek trains would be totally outclassed by the Chinese one. *Small detail over long period of time is turned into large detail.
Example 2: Probably one of the largest Balkan project ever proposed is connection Danube-Morava-Vardar-Egean Sea river connection, starting from Belgrade(Serbia) threw Macedonia and ending in Thessaloniki(Greece). That connection is freeing central Europe from the crowded Turkish Dardanelles and is promoting Thessaloniki as main trade port in the Balkan peninsula. Yes the river connection will cost more but over long period of time it will be profitable, not only for the countries that want to build it but for 20% of Europe. But Serbia, Macedonia and Greece dont have funds to make it and politics is ruining every possible chance for it. As a result Chinese products are more competitive then the one coming from these territories.
Example 3: Railway connecting Thessaloniki to Belgrade in the 1970's is the same as today's(max speed of 90 km/h), but in the same period Chinese one(you can chose some with same characteristics and for similar population) jumped from 90 km/h to 250 km/h.

When EU was created the the dream was to remove the borders and to fix every problem by mutual cooperation, and there was no intention vetoes to be used. Its in Europe's(including Greece) best interest Macedonia to be part of EU. By fucking Macedonia Greece fucked it self in the end. Its up to EU to remember why it was made and what is it main force.(tip Cooperation not Vetoes).
Yes we are small country(150km x 250km), and can be rounded easily but that rounding on a long run is making these whole area uncompetitive compared to other areas of the world where cooperation thrives.

GoranZ wrote:And probably those Western European Muslims that will face such defeat will remember the defeat they faced and will retaliate eventually.

What you said about Greece and Macedonia is perfect example of why Europe's dream is dying.
Example 1: Macedonia started to build North-South Highway in 1980's as part of Yugoslavia. That highway will be finally finished in 2016, but it could have been finished in 2006 or much sooner. As a result almost every merchandise coming from Serbia(and every country north of it) takes longer to arrive in Greece and vice verse. So if a company in Greece is making some train for example and it is using some parts from Serbia for it, they would most likely arrive later and be more expensive. This wont cost Greece a lot on small scale but overall the economy is less productive and the products are less competitive(because they are more expensive). As a result in a period of over a decade greek trains would be totally outclassed by the Chinese one. *Small detail over long period of time is turned into large detail.
Example 2: Probably one of the largest Balkan project ever proposed is connection Danube-Morava-Vardar-Egean Sea river connection, starting from Belgrade(Serbia) threw Macedonia and ending in Thessaloniki(Greece). That connection is freeing central Europe from the crowded Turkish Dardanelles and is promoting Thessaloniki as main trade port in the Balkan peninsula. Yes the river connection will cost more but over long period of time it will be profitable, not only for the countries that want to build it but for 20% of Europe. But Serbia, Macedonia and Greece dont have funds to make it and politics is ruining every possible chance for it. As a result Chinese products are more competitive then the one coming from these territories.
Example 3: Railway connecting Thessaloniki to Belgrade in the 1970's is the same as today's(max speed of 90 km/h), but in the same period Chinese one(you can chose some with same characteristics and for similar population) jumped from 90 km/h to 250 km/h.

When EU was created the the dream was to remove the borders and to fix every problem by mutual cooperation, and there was no intention vetoes to be used. Its in Europe's(including Greece) best interest Macedonia to be part of EU. By fucking Macedonia Greece fucked it self in the end. Its up to EU to remember why it was made and what is it main force.(tip Cooperation not Vetoes).
Yes we are small country(150km x 250km), and can be rounded easily but that rounding on a long run is making these whole area uncompetitive compared to other areas of the world where cooperation thrives.

The problem is that that original dream is conflicting with reality. If you move too fast and admit too many countries too quickly it will have a backlash. Changes need to ease in gradually. Personally I don't want the EU to expand at all for the next decade or more. Adding more voiced nations to the bunch, will only further impede any necessary restructuring. That being said, Greece has been screwing itself over in a myriad of ways. They're the epitome of bad policy.

waauw wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

waauw wrote:Turkey is probably never going to enter the EU, however much american presidents ask for it.

That depends how much Western Europe will remain land of dominant Christian population... After all Muslim minorities in Western countries would eventually like large Muslim country in Europe
Atm dominance of Christian population in Western Europe is diluting at alarming rate

Keep in mind that every nation within the EU is allowed to veto applicant nations. If ever Turkey wants to join, this rule would have to disappear.
Example: Greece opposing Macedonian relations with the EU.

Integrating Turkey into the EU has been a very high foreign policy priority of Republican and Democratic U.S. presidents. European nations that aren't willing to be flexible on the question of eventual Turkish accession will be placed under incredible pressure from both the U.S. and America's Trojan Horses on the European Commission (i.e. UK, Poland, Slovakia). Not to say they can't keep Turkey out forever, but it will take an incredible amount of effort and great political risk. The U.S. is going to put all its cards on the table to try to make this happen; it's the last piece in the American strategic puzzle for this sector of the world.

waauw wrote:

GoranZ wrote:And probably those Western European Muslims that will face such defeat will remember the defeat they faced and will retaliate eventually.

What you said about Greece and Macedonia is perfect example of why Europe's dream is dying.
Example 1: Macedonia started to build North-South Highway in 1980's as part of Yugoslavia. That highway will be finally finished in 2016, but it could have been finished in 2006 or much sooner. As a result almost every merchandise coming from Serbia(and every country north of it) takes longer to arrive in Greece and vice verse. So if a company in Greece is making some train for example and it is using some parts from Serbia for it, they would most likely arrive later and be more expensive. This wont cost Greece a lot on small scale but overall the economy is less productive and the products are less competitive(because they are more expensive). As a result in a period of over a decade greek trains would be totally outclassed by the Chinese one. *Small detail over long period of time is turned into large detail.
Example 2: Probably one of the largest Balkan project ever proposed is connection Danube-Morava-Vardar-Egean Sea river connection, starting from Belgrade(Serbia) threw Macedonia and ending in Thessaloniki(Greece). That connection is freeing central Europe from the crowded Turkish Dardanelles and is promoting Thessaloniki as main trade port in the Balkan peninsula. Yes the river connection will cost more but over long period of time it will be profitable, not only for the countries that want to build it but for 20% of Europe. But Serbia, Macedonia and Greece dont have funds to make it and politics is ruining every possible chance for it. As a result Chinese products are more competitive then the one coming from these territories.
Example 3: Railway connecting Thessaloniki to Belgrade in the 1970's is the same as today's(max speed of 90 km/h), but in the same period Chinese one(you can chose some with same characteristics and for similar population) jumped from 90 km/h to 250 km/h.

When EU was created the the dream was to remove the borders and to fix every problem by mutual cooperation, and there was no intention vetoes to be used. Its in Europe's(including Greece) best interest Macedonia to be part of EU. By fucking Macedonia Greece fucked it self in the end. Its up to EU to remember why it was made and what is it main force.(tip Cooperation not Vetoes).
Yes we are small country(150km x 250km), and can be rounded easily but that rounding on a long run is making these whole area uncompetitive compared to other areas of the world where cooperation thrives.

The problem is that that original dream is conflicting with reality. If you move too fast and admit too many countries too quickly it will have a backlash. Changes need to ease in gradually. Personally I don't want the EU to expand at all for the next decade or more. Adding more voiced nations to the bunch, will only further impede any necessary restructuring. That being said, Greece has been screwing itself over in a myriad of ways. They're the epitome of bad policy.

Expansion is not the problem, problem is sticking to previous agreements. If some country is not sticking to agreements it should lose its voice(until it is able to stick to its previous agreements... even if that means it would take a century). In the case of Greece... it can be part of EU but votes from Greece in any EU commission would be void, and if Greece dont like the deal it can get out. And the most important, Organizations(Banks, other financial institutions, etc) that helped Greece to cheat should be banned from operating in EU for the duration of the punishment of Greece(even if that takes a century).

Something funny about Game of Thrones and current situation in Greece:
Game of Greece