Arama86n wrote:Some people should study history more closely. AoC for example may never have reached #1, but they were consistently top for a long time. And that, to me at least, means a lot.
Also I think there is a memory bias. it is easy to remember who was #1 last year. I may be harder to remember who war #3-#5 between 2012-2014 for example
I could write a bloody A4, but I'll pass.
Hail TSM, Hail Empire, Hail AoC. And ofc, eternal glory to KORT. But that should go without saying. I have also always had a lot of respect for IA. Not sure exactly where I'd put them in a historical t10 list. THOTA was slightly before my time. I won't even mention FALL. It is a like commenting a painting half-way through. Legacy in motion. Keep it up gents/ladies.
The absolute hardest clan to talk about is TOP. It is just too soon. An amazing start to the career, it goes without saying. But it is just too early to say anything. We look forward to the year to come TOP. Second hardest is PACK. Hard to compare a relatively short-lived peak to long-lived clans. No offence at all, I just don't know how to judge it.
As for TOFU. We outlived several crises, CC2, CC3. People taunted, people said we were "over". It got even harder, the people that were left were overworked. We lost more to burnout. But we endured. We recruited, We survived, we persevered, and we stayed close to the summit. I am proud of my clan. Very proud. Enough said.
There are other clans I would like to mention, like OSA and RA in different contexts. But if I go beyond this t10, it will be two A4's, and no one will read it anyway
Thats a bloody quality post right there. I feel you on the THOTA, they were gone by the time I joined the clan scene but at the time their name was that looming horse and you would see their players here and there for pickup games and were always scared.
iAmCaffeine wrote:I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.
I think some of you forget how the top 5 for like a two year period included was TOFU, KORT, EMPIRE, TSM and AOC. So to me it makes sense that they are above LHDD. Wasn't EMP fighting for first place for a long time in F400?
And at betiko, it actually isn't all seen as one because we weren't allowed to keep our ranking unlike S&M because they declared as an addition of teamates instead of a merger? Or I could be wrong. I'm not all that up to date and in the know on history.
How can I forget something I never witnessed? I do know ex-AoC members though, and from what I'm aware of AoC started off very weak and somehow built up to become a strong clan, thanks to a change in leadership. They were a great clan for sure, I just think FOED and LHDD would both rank higher. Empire are not to be considered with AoC regardless.
LOW also won CL and are not part of top 10 of all times. This just show consistency of performance and it's accurate for clans that have played enough. You have HOF for trophies.
I was always a bit scared when I had to play THOTA players in a team game. They were incredibly good. It took 2-3 years for other clans to pick up their play and strategy and reach their level. What is more or less standard right now (make defensive 2's, think on fort chains, eliminate teammate for cards) they did in 2011 and were the only ones who did that. Well, LoW too.
I remember when I was searching for a clan (and eventually formed TOFU with CoF) it was either THOTA or LoW for me. CoF was in LoW at the moment, and we decided to make a spin off together with some players. What a time it was!
By the way, TOFU have risen as fast as TOP does right now. But we practically destroyed CL when we played and quickly challenged top players of the time like IA and others. So TOP can do the same and then they can easily be top-3 if they can keep up the pace.
iAmCaffeine wrote:I'm not sure how AoC gets into a Top 10 over LHDD and FOED.
I think some of you forget how the top 5 for like a two year period included was TOFU, KORT, EMPIRE, TSM and AOC. So to me it makes sense that they are above LHDD. Wasn't EMP fighting for first place for a long time in F400?
And at betiko, it actually isn't all seen as one because we weren't allowed to keep our ranking unlike S&M because they declared as an addition of teamates instead of a merger? Or I could be wrong. I'm not all that up to date and in the know on history.
LHDD being top 2-5 in the last 2 years+, and actually winning major titles such as the clan league first division and being a CC semi finalist since 2 years and losing by 1 against the competition winner. Your argument makes total sense swimmer. LHDD has played a total of 30 wars for 22 wins and almost all losses were before 2013, while AOC has played 11 for 7 wins... AOC isn't boxing in the same category. Had LHDD disbanned in 2013 to reform a new clan the ACE way, LHDD would be in the top 5 easy according to the criteria of this ranking, which makes no sense in my opinion. Like if you don't consider the lakers or the celtics better than... okc thunder because okc has been more consistent throughout its short history, and because you're not counting the sonic's history even though the thunder and the supersonics were the same. the new consistent top 5 is now TOFU, FALL, S&M, LHDD and TOP. TOP are the new guys, LHDD and FALL stepped up their game at the same time
what exactly is impressive about that? AOC was a very good clan; but they don't make it to the top 10 of all time ahead of FOED, LHDD, OSA to name a few.
Last edited by betiko on Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Arama86n wrote:Some people should study history more closely. AoC for example may never have reached #1, but they were consistently top for a long time. And that, to me at least, means a lot.
Also I think there is a memory bias. it is easy to remember who was #1 last year. I may be harder to remember who war #3-#5 between 2012-2014 for example
I could write a bloody A4, but I'll pass.
Hail TSM, Hail Empire, Hail AoC. And ofc, eternal glory to KORT. But that should go without saying. I have also always had a lot of respect for IA. Not sure exactly where I'd put them in a historical t10 list. THOTA was slightly before my time. I won't even mention FALL. It is a like commenting a painting half-way through. Legacy in motion. Keep it up gents/ladies.
The absolute hardest clan to talk about is TOP. It is just too soon. An amazing start to the career, it goes without saying. But it is just too early to say anything. We look forward to the year to come TOP. Second hardest is PACK. Hard to compare a relatively short-lived peak to long-lived clans. No offence at all, I just don't know how to judge it.
As for TOFU. We outlived several crises, CC2, CC3. People taunted, people said we were "over". It got even harder, the people that were left were overworked. We lost more to burnout. But we endured. We recruited, We survived, we persevered, and we stayed close to the summit. I am proud of my clan. Very proud. Enough said.
There are other clans I would like to mention, like OSA and RA in different contexts. But if I go beyond this t10, it will be two A4's, and no one will read it anyway
Thats a bloody quality post right there. I feel you on the THOTA, they were gone by the time I joined the clan scene but at the time their name was that looming horse and you would see their players here and there for pickup games and were always scared.
When i joined CC, it took me a few mont to join the clan world, until I decided to step in in spite of my little experience; and it was the time of the reign of thota and blitz; and yes, they sure looked scary... at least the way people talked about them even if I never got the chance to face them. They were definitely the all time best back in 2011 and brought lots of new stuff to the clan world... but I think that what KORT did places them as number 1, even TOFU is ahead of THOTA by now in my opinion.
thanks Swimmer. A little on the emotional side, I'd had a few to drink. But in the light of day I stand by everything I wrote Could have skipped the sentimental part about the hardships of my clan over the years though
We're still on AoC are we, ok: A last note on that: look at their losses though EMP, IA, THOTA, TOFU, KORT. (I'll ignore the AFOS loss, as I'm sure they were in decline by that time). Their last three losses, when they had truly hit their stride are against arguably the three most successful clans of all time. Apart from that it's wins. I'd be damn proud of that record if I was ex-AoC.
Arama86n wrote:thanks Swimmer. A little on the emotional side, I'd had a few to drink. But in the light of day I stand by everything I wrote Could have skipped the sentimental part about the hardships of my clan over the years though
We're still on AoC are we, ok: A last note on that: look at their losses though EMP, IA, THOTA, TOFU, KORT. (I'll ignore the AFOS loss, as I'm sure they were in decline by that time). Their last three losses, when they had truly hit their stride are against arguably the three most successful clans of all time. Apart from that it's wins. I'd be damn proud of that record if I was ex-AoC.
not really sure when was the great AFOS disban with all their key players moving to PACK, but this says april 2013, and around that time AFOS made it to a CC final... just checked and it was the 2013 CC where they reached the final; so no, nothing wrong to lose in the CC cup against a future finalist that still had its best players. And is it more about who you lose against that who you beat? Cause anyone can brag about losing against the best... that is not an argument! the most notable win I see is a win by 1 against EMP, and a comfortable win against FOED and OSA. But it's hard to judge awin against FOED and OSA, as these 2 clans are always fighting 5 wars at a time and are not always focused on everything and they are quite inconsistent depending on who's on break and who is fully active.
At the end of the day discussing how good a clan is/was is a matter of subjective interpretation. I have nothing more to say on the subject of AoC.
PS: I believe AFOS was in decline by the time of the final [of CC3]. Look at the score... The semi-final against KORT was one of the greatest battles in CC history. The final [against AFOS] was not a close contest.
Arama86n wrote:PS: I believe AFOS was in decline by the time of the final [of CC3]. Look at the score... The semi-final against KORT was one of the greatest battles in CC history. The final [against AFOS] was not a close contest.
Yeah, AFOS lost 42-18 at that moment. It was a complete slaughter in CC finals.
Arama86n wrote:PS: I believe AFOS was in decline by the time of the final [of CC3]. Look at the score... The semi-final against KORT was one of the greatest battles in CC history. The final [against AFOS] was not a close contest.
Yeah, AFOS lost 42-18 at that moment. It was a complete slaughter in CC finals.
Yes, and during the finals half of AFOS was negociating terms with PACK leaders to join us. I believe everthing was running smooth till the semis when they beat AOC, then a lot of internal problems happened during the finals and the clan fell appart. But I don't believe empire and aoc really had time to have a period of decline. It all happened very fast, and I thought it was a joke when they said they were merging to become ace.
Anyway... AOC-AFOS wasn t a cheap semi final; both declined after this match up.
That's all true, but you can't fault the teams that win if their opponents have a howler. The CC5 final was reasonably well played and we lost. We did not play well in the CC4 final. That's not KORT's fault, nor is it our fault that AFOS did not play well in the CC3 final.
rockfist wrote:That's all true, but you can't fault the teams that win if their opponents have a howler. The CC5 final was reasonably well played and we lost. We did not play well in the CC4 final. That's not KORT's fault, nor is it our fault that AFOS did not play well in the CC3 final.
@CC3 I'd say that the reason it is not relevant is the semi-final. We beat KORT (who were in great shape) in the Semi. Whoever reached the final at that point doesn't matter because the two best clans at the time faced off in the semi's.
rockfist wrote:That's all true, but you can't fault the teams that win if their opponents have a howler. The CC5 final was reasonably well played and we lost. We did not play well in the CC4 final. That's not KORT's fault, nor is it our fault that AFOS did not play well in the CC3 final.
Just like we played well the cc5 semi final against fall last year and we ve been quite mediocre this year against you guys with a lot of mistakes in a few games we don t usually do.. hope we ll face each other next year with both clans at full strength, or close enough, for a little rematch
Let me say first of all I am a friend of PaulatPeace’s. I have borrowed this account to make a statement that will hopefully give you some pause to consider what I am about to tell say. I am not Paul himself but am basing what I am going to say on conversations I have had with him and also on basic principles of reasonable conduct and what I have come to recognize as right and wrong. I am not familiar with all that has transpired on this site up to this point except what Paul has told me. I do however know Paul pretty well and believe he is an honest person of integrity. Some of the things I will point out here should be able to be verified on this site. Others should simply appeal to one’s common sense and also the sense of how you would wish to be treated yourself by others. I understand that some of you just don’t like PaulatPeace. Others of you don’t care for the way he would keep on standing up for what he believed in. Whatever your persuasion, all I ask is that you look candidly at what I have to say, and ask yourself if what was done to Paul seems fair and right.
First, let me offer a basic premise most people in free countries all over the globe would agree on. This premise basically says that just because you own a web site, that doesn’t give you free reign to do whatever you wish to people who enter or join the site. This site is owned by a corporation based in California, USA. There are certain standards for corporations based in the USA and certain established protocols which must be adhered to. For example, If you start a restaurant where you present yourself open to the public and sell meals for which patrons pay money, you cannot just treat the people who enter your restaurant any way you want to. You cannot deny them seating because of the color of their skin. When they are seated, if you discover they are a Buddhist or Mormon, you cannot refuse to serve them. If they tell you they don’t care for the tables are arranged or that they don’t like color of the carpet, you cannot just boot them out onto the street.
Possibly, you may see my point here. You can’t just do what you want to the people who visit your business, whether that be a restaurant in this great country, or a gaming site people pay money to join. Things were done to PaulatPeace that should not have been done to anyone here
I will now list some of these things:
- When Paul posted his Farewell remarks using the account of a friend and mentor of his (General Pat), the administration of this site entered General Pat’s account (although they did not have his password) and changed Paul’s words to make fun of him in a mean and ugly way, disparaging his character and distorting what he said. They may have felt justified in what they did and there may be some of you who agree with them, but tell me this, how does it make you feel that the administrators on this site can enter anyone’s account at any time they wish and do or say anything they want to. Your accounts are supposed to be private accounts only you have access to or those you give your password to. Clearly this is not the case and each of you are in jeopardy of this happening to you, your friends or your clan.
- When Paul was prohibited from having access to his account and banned permanently from this site, he was given one reason for this being done. He was told that the mods and admins running this site that they just could not spend their valuable time dealing with him any longer and that he was just too much of a disruption. Ok, I get it that Paul probably said things that threatened their authority and the status quo they had established and wanted to protect. But I have seen some of the posts on this site. I have witnessed the vulgarity, the name calling, the disparaging remarks directed towards Paul and others by many players. So Paul brings up points he feels are relevant and fact based. Even if you don’t share his views or agree with him, does this mean you have the right to take away his access to the account he paid for and ban him from the site because you don’t agree with him? Did Paul use gross profanity on a regular basis. Did he make racist or sexist remarks? Did he ever degrade another player and suggest they be banned from this site because he disagreed with their point of view? No friends, he did not He simply voiced his opinion, which he had a right to do, and as others do all the time.
- Paul was accused of grossly abusing other players on this site by inviting players to games on a map he was proficient at. Those of you not familiar with the accusations may not be aware that Paul was never found guilty of these accusations. It was even stated by the individual making the judgement of his guilt or innocence that all he did was invite higher ranked players to these games and these players were fully capable of refusing to join the games or not. You may also not be aware that with every invitation sent, Paul ALWAYS told everyone that he was very skilled on the map (Antartica) he was inviting them to and offered to answer their questions about the map itself if they had any. Paul had reached the rank of Conqueror at this time and many players would jump at the chance to play a Conqueror. When Paul would win a game he gained an average of about 8 points. When he lost a game (which did happen from time to time) he would lose 45 - 50 points. There are numerous players on this site that specialize in specific maps. When players join games with them they do so willingly and without coercion. They usually lose these games, but it is always their choice and their decision to join the games or not. Paul ultimately was not found guilty, but did receive a warning which he completely followed. Look at the record. Look at the evidence. Although this was not the reason Paul was banned from this site, the way he was treated by his accusers and all the others who jumped on that bandwagon was despicable. Things were said that were blatantly untrue, and all these thing were said while Paul was not even permitted to answer his accusers. So I ask you this, how would you feel if this was done to you? How would you feel if you were accused of abusing players who were by no means newbies to the site and you had been completely honest and straight with when inviting them to games?
- The Clan which Paul created (The Omega Pantheon) has been the most successful clan this last year according to a clan ranking system referred to by this site as the F400 Ranking. For the last 2 ½ years Paul has poured his heart and soul into this clan as it’s founder and chief leader. He spent countless hours developing strategies and methods by which his new clan could rise to the top of the clan world. The principles of Honor & Integrity which were the foundational values this clan was built upon were his values and his inspiration. Yet, when Paul was banned from this site, the administration removed his name as a Leader of his clan and eventually removed his name entirely from the clan roster, all without permission of the current Leaders of his clan. Whether you agree with Paul or not, whether you feel he was dead wrong or justly right, whether you thought he was just a pain in the butt or someone who stood up for what he believed in------- how would you feel if you had poured yourself into the creation and development of a very successful clan, only to be removed from the clan’s records, not by the current clan leaders, but by the site administrators who have no business messing with a clan’s roster?
I pose these sincere questions to you brothers and sisters. Ask yourself how you would feel if this were done to you, or your friends or your clan mates. No matter what you think of an individual, there is a right way everyone deserves to be treated, and then there is the way Paul was treated by this site
rockfist wrote:That's all true, but you can't fault the teams that win if their opponents have a howler. The CC5 final was reasonably well played and we lost. We did not play well in the CC4 final. That's not KORT's fault, nor is it our fault that AFOS did not play well in the CC3 final.
Just like we played well the cc5 semi final against fall last year and we ve been quite mediocre this year against you guys with a lot of mistakes in a few games we don t usually do.. hope we ll face each other next year with both clans at full strength, or close enough, for a little rematch
rockfist wrote:That's all true, but you can't fault the teams that win if their opponents have a howler. The CC5 final was reasonably well played and we lost. We did not play well in the CC4 final. That's not KORT's fault, nor is it our fault that AFOS did not play well in the CC3 final.
Just like we played well the cc5 semi final against fall last year and we ve been quite mediocre this year against you guys with a lot of mistakes in a few games we don t usually do.. hope we ll face each other next year with both clans at full strength, or close enough, for a little rematch
Get going on that I would love a rematch.
Tbh, even if we make it we are still probably less competitive than last year lol.
not that i think this has anything to do with ranking top clans of all time, but out of curiosity is there a quick way to know who the oldest active competitive clan on CC is?
reptile wrote:not that i think this has anything to do with ranking top clans of all time, but out of curiosity is there a quick way to know who the oldest active competitive clan on CC is?
Imperial Dragoons. (2006) Then you have Low and VDLL in November 2007 (for that I had to cheat and look) Low officially ten days older for what it's worth.
I think Imperial Dragoons was my first clan, actually. I'm not sure I ever played any games, though. That was probably with the mighty Regulators, the #1 clan in CC history.
niMic wrote:I think Imperial Dragoons was my first clan, actually. I'm not sure I ever played any games, though. That was probably with the mighty Regulators, the #1 clan in CC history.
The guantlet has been thrown down, I think you should prove that in a Throwback War
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