Conquer Club

The issue is about what do you like the most. If you like to believe in god, you will argument all life long, and the same in the other direction.

Woodruff wrote:He also told us "an eye for an eye". Does that mean we're evil if we don't follow that one too?

No, he did not. It was written that he once said that it had been said ...

Player already explained it to him. He didn't get it the first time, and I've learned to not try more than once with him.

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:Who determines what is evil? Chew on that one suckers!

Christ told us "love thy God" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". So, anything violating those 2 precepts is, by definition "evil" for we humans.

He also told us "an eye for an eye". Does that mean we're evil if we don't follow that one too?

The one precedes the other. As humanity grew, so did the rules, just as you start by telling a child "stay in the yard", then "you can go across the street while I watch"... etc. But that gets into a lot of complications.

Snorri1234 wrote:

you ignore mine or say they "don't apply".

Yes I say they don't apply because they don't apply to the argument.

Except you consider anything that does not lead to the answer you wish to "not apply".

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

you ignore mine or say they "don't apply".

Yes I say they don't apply because they don't apply to the argument.

Except you consider anything that does not lead to the answer you wish to "not apply".

Maybe we'll have more success if we approach things from the other end.

Would you tell me what my argument is? This way we can find out whether it's you who don't get what I'm saying, or whether it's me who doesn't get what you're saying.

MeDeFe,

If He does exist and He created the heavens and the earth and you and me and He has never created someone knowing that they would rebel against Him, then who has a right to judge? Do you propose that there be anarchy across the universe if that's the case?

MeDeFe wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

you ignore mine or say they "don't apply".

Yes I say they don't apply because they don't apply to the argument.

Except you consider anything that does not lead to the answer you wish to "not apply".

Maybe we'll have more success if we approach things from the other end.

Would you tell me what my argument is? This way we can find out whether it's you who don't get what I'm saying, or whether it's me who doesn't get what you're saying.

We disagree. It is religion. The only issue I have is when you or anyone else tries to claim that believe is somehow inversely tied to intelligence, critical thinking, etc. You have a right to your beliefs. I have a right to mine.

I do not believe the premise put forth by the OP is correct, but I also don't think I am going to convince you otherwise. And, it really and truly does not matter since you say you don't believe in God anyway. So, for now, I say we "agree to disagree".

I don’t think this is a question of “Religion.” I think the problem is dueling straw-man arguments. I think the real question is far deeper; it is the purpose of life, the universe, and indeed everything. I might even call this a mystery, but I would be guilty of obfuscation of definition, given that the word means many different things to many different people.

Once the purpose of life, the universe, and indeed everything, is understood, then we can discuss how God can create such a universe; for that universe needs to be created in order to fulfill that purpose. That purpose limits what God can and cannot do because doing anything that does not result in that purpose would be counterproductive to that purpose.

All assumptions in this argument are just that. In trying to find an answer when you don’t even know the question (yes, the answer is 42 in case you were wondering) you only wind up yelling at each other. Find the question first; the answer will become obvious.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

you ignore mine or say they "don't apply".

Yes I say they don't apply because they don't apply to the argument.

Except you consider anything that does not lead to the answer you wish to "not apply".

Maybe we'll have more success if we approach things from the other end.

Would you tell me what my argument is? This way we can find out whether it's you who don't get what I'm saying, or whether it's me who doesn't get what you're saying.

We disagree. It is religion. The only issue I have is when you or anyone else tries to claim that believe is somehow inversely tied to intelligence, critical thinking, etc. You have a right to your beliefs. I have a right to mine.

I do not believe the premise put forth by the OP is correct, but I also don't think I am going to convince you otherwise. And, it really and truly does not matter since you say you don't believe in God anyway. So, for now, I say we "agree to disagree".

What does the OP have to do with our arguments?

If God made "Thou shalt not kill" one of the ten commandments, then why is there murder? Apparently, if he does exist, he doesn't even take himself very seriously.

Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

Woodruff wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:Who determines what is evil? Chew on that one suckers!

Christ told us "love thy God" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". So, anything violating those 2 precepts is, by definition "evil" for we humans.

He also told us "an eye for an eye". Does that mean we're evil if we don't follow that one too?

That's actually the code of Hammurabi.

Seriously, volunteer discussion moderator here trying to moderate discussion...

If God does not exist, how do you know something is evil?

PLAYER57832 wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:

you ignore mine or say they "don't apply".

Yes I say they don't apply because they don't apply to the argument.

Except you consider anything that does not lead to the answer you wish to "not apply".

Maybe we'll have more success if we approach things from the other end.

Would you tell me what my argument is? This way we can find out whether it's you who don't get what I'm saying, or whether it's me who doesn't get what you're saying.

We disagree. It is religion. The only issue I have is when you or anyone else tries to claim that believe is somehow inversely tied to intelligence, critical thinking, etc.

Fine, great, splendid. I HAVE NOT CLAIMED ANY OF THAT!

You have a right to your beliefs. I have a right to mine.

Good.

I do not believe the premise put forth by the OP is correct, but I also don't think I am going to convince you otherwise. And, it really and truly does not matter since you say you don't believe in God anyway. So, for now, I say we "agree to disagree".

My argument does not rest on the premises put forth in the OP. It's topically related, but not in any way dependent on the premises in the OP.

thegreekdog wrote:Seriously, volunteer discussion moderator here trying to moderate discussion...

If God does not exist, how do you know something is evil?

Group consensus? If there is no higher power, the only law that would exist is the law we would make for ourselves. Therefore each person would define for themselves what is evil or not evil. At most, you could say that the law of the land decides what is evil. But if there is nothing beyond ourselves, then evil is defined only by ourselves.

Lucarilover240 wrote:If God made "Thou shalt not kill" one of the ten commandments, then why is there murder? Apparently, if he does exist, he doesn't even take himself very seriously.

Murder is a natural extension of the lives of mortal beings. It is physically possible for one man to kill another - given that, without taking away free will, God could not prevent it. It is a price we must pay in order to be free mortal human beings.

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

It is impossible, period, to know all of the possible consequences of any given action. Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences, and touch the lives of millions across the globe, while if they had not been molested maybe they end up working at McDonalds. Maybe that person that was murdered would have ended up driving drunk and killing a bus load of children. I am not saying that this is always the case for every single one of these kinds of acts, I am just saying that you cannot know for sure that these evil things are not necessary for some reason.

Furthermore, if all of the pain of the world were taken away, would we even notice the pleasure? Can you make a tapestry without using dark colored thread?

To top all of that off, we could then get into discussion about free will, which has already been beat like a bloody horse on this thread, but that is really what it boils down to. God wanted to give us the ability to make our own decisions, even if He does not agree with those decisions. At the end of the day, it is man making the choice to commit genocide, child molestation, and murder. God told us not to, but we do it anyway. I tell you what, though - I bet if you ask someone who has been molested whether they would have rather never existed in the first place, 9 out of 10 will tell you no.

dwilhelmi wrote:

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

It is impossible, period, to know all of the possible consequences of any given action. Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences, and touch the lives of millions across the globe, while if they had not been molested maybe they end up working at McDonalds. Maybe that person that was murdered would have ended up driving drunk and killing a bus load of children. I am not saying that this is always the case for every single one of these kinds of acts, I am just saying that you cannot know for sure that these evil things are not necessary for some reason.

Furthermore, if all of the pain of the world were taken away, would we even notice the pleasure? Can you make a tapestry without using dark colored thread?

Specifically quoting your comment: "Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences..."

Easily, your comment here is the best reason for a person to avoid religion. What kind of person are you that you would say that the end being beautiful poetry justifies the means of childhood molestation? You are an awful, awful person and so are your compatriots who espouse the existence, Not of God, but of Your God and the sad, sad reasoning you have been brainwashed to accept such that you make statements like the one quoted.

If death is just as natural as birth and there's not a living being on earth who will not die, how much difference would it make when beings die?

And want to discuss physical and emotional pain? You know how much pain one and only one has experienced if even that maybe. What if there are molested children in Ethiopia who have not eaten in days and yet they are happier than Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie?

Queen_Herpes wrote:

dwilhelmi wrote:

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

It is impossible, period, to know all of the possible consequences of any given action. Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences, and touch the lives of millions across the globe, while if they had not been molested maybe they end up working at McDonalds. Maybe that person that was murdered would have ended up driving drunk and killing a bus load of children. I am not saying that this is always the case for every single one of these kinds of acts, I am just saying that you cannot know for sure that these evil things are not necessary for some reason.

Furthermore, if all of the pain of the world were taken away, would we even notice the pleasure? Can you make a tapestry without using dark colored thread?

Specifically quoting your comment: "Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences..."

Easily, your comment here is the best reason for a person to avoid religion. What kind of person are you that you would say that the end being beautiful poetry justifies the means of childhood molestation? You are an awful, awful person and so are your compatriots who espouse the existence, Not of God, but of Your God and the sad, sad reasoning you have been brainwashed to accept such that you make statements like the one quoted.

The point was NOT that the end justifies the means, but simply that we cannot predict the outcome of every action that is taken. I am not by any means saying that child molestation is OK - I think it is something absolutely terrible, and any freak who does it should be locked up for life. I apologize if I got a little ahead of myself in that post (it was almost 1am, and I was debating religion while I could barely keep my eyes open - bad idea). I was just trying to show that good can come out of even the most awful of situations.

You cannot expect God to take away all of the pain in the world, but then turn around and expect to be able to do whatever you want. Free will comes at a price. WE are the cause of the pain, WE are to blame.

And I am not an awful, awful person.

dwilhelmi wrote:

Queen_Herpes wrote:

dwilhelmi wrote:

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

It is impossible, period, to know all of the possible consequences of any given action. Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences, and touch the lives of millions across the globe, while if they had not been molested maybe they end up working at McDonalds. Maybe that person that was murdered would have ended up driving drunk and killing a bus load of children. I am not saying that this is always the case for every single one of these kinds of acts, I am just saying that you cannot know for sure that these evil things are not necessary for some reason.

Furthermore, if all of the pain of the world were taken away, would we even notice the pleasure? Can you make a tapestry without using dark colored thread?

Specifically quoting your comment: "Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences..."

Easily, your comment here is the best reason for a person to avoid religion. What kind of person are you that you would say that the end being beautiful poetry justifies the means of childhood molestation? You are an awful, awful person and so are your compatriots who espouse the existence, Not of God, but of Your God and the sad, sad reasoning you have been brainwashed to accept such that you make statements like the one quoted.

The point was NOT that the end justifies the means, but simply that we cannot predict the outcome of every action that is taken. I am not by any means saying that child molestation is OK - I think it is something absolutely terrible, and any freak who does it should be locked up for life. I apologize if I got a little ahead of myself in that post (it was almost 1am, and I was debating religion while I could barely keep my eyes open - bad idea). I was just trying to show that good can come out of even the most awful of situations.

You cannot expect God to take away all of the pain in the world, but then turn around and expect to be able to do whatever you want. Free will comes at a price. WE are the cause of the pain, WE are to blame.

And I am not an awful, awful person.

Well, if that's the case, then you are left with pretty much nothing supporting God's existence at all. You say he tells us what to do, but apparently he does absoulutely nothing but watch with distaste if we choose to ignore him. You're pretty much just making excuses and refusing to even consider the fact that he may not exist or be the all powerful being everyone considers him to be.

Lucarilover240 wrote:

dwilhelmi wrote:

Queen_Herpes wrote:

dwilhelmi wrote:

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

It is impossible, period, to know all of the possible consequences of any given action. Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences, and touch the lives of millions across the globe, while if they had not been molested maybe they end up working at McDonalds. Maybe that person that was murdered would have ended up driving drunk and killing a bus load of children. I am not saying that this is always the case for every single one of these kinds of acts, I am just saying that you cannot know for sure that these evil things are not necessary for some reason.

Furthermore, if all of the pain of the world were taken away, would we even notice the pleasure? Can you make a tapestry without using dark colored thread?

Specifically quoting your comment: "Someone who is molested as a child may grow up to be a beautiful poet because of their awful experiences..."

Easily, your comment here is the best reason for a person to avoid religion. What kind of person are you that you would say that the end being beautiful poetry justifies the means of childhood molestation? You are an awful, awful person and so are your compatriots who espouse the existence, Not of God, but of Your God and the sad, sad reasoning you have been brainwashed to accept such that you make statements like the one quoted.

The point was NOT that the end justifies the means, but simply that we cannot predict the outcome of every action that is taken. I am not by any means saying that child molestation is OK - I think it is something absolutely terrible, and any freak who does it should be locked up for life. I apologize if I got a little ahead of myself in that post (it was almost 1am, and I was debating religion while I could barely keep my eyes open - bad idea). I was just trying to show that good can come out of even the most awful of situations.

You cannot expect God to take away all of the pain in the world, but then turn around and expect to be able to do whatever you want. Free will comes at a price. WE are the cause of the pain, WE are to blame.

And I am not an awful, awful person.

Well, if that's the case, then you are left with pretty much nothing supporting God's existence at all. You say he tells us what to do, but apparently he does absoulutely nothing but watch with distaste if we choose to ignore him. You're pretty much just making excuses and refusing to even consider the fact that he may not exist or be the all powerful being everyone considers him to be.

I have considered, many times, the fact that He may not exist. I have had my doubts, gone through long periods when I did not believe. Now, though, I do believe, because I have felt Him in my life. I questioned, my head full of doubts, and had every single doubt answered in a single day. It was an amazing experience.

I am absolutely saying that he watches us sin, often I am quite sure with distaste. How could one not have distaste when witnessing some of the things that we as humans do? This life, though, and the ability to make those choices, are His gift to us. If given the choice between this flawed world we live in, and a "perfect" world where there was no pain or wrong doing, but I was just a mindless puppet being controlled by a puppetmaster God, I would choose this world in a heartbeat.

If there is in fact a God, then I would hope for exactly the outcome that has happened. I do not want to be controlled into acting exactly as I should all the time. I like having the freedom to do what I want to do. Can you describe a better world in which there is a God? What would it look like? What would you give up if you could shape the world yourself?

Lucarilover240 wrote:If God made "Thou shalt not kill" one of the ten commandments, then why is there murder? Apparently, if he does exist, he doesn't even take himself very seriously.

It's called free will.

Lucarilover240 wrote:Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

Unless the alternatives are even worse. eep.. I almost said "perhaps".. I think lionz has forever tainted that word for me!

Lucarilover240 wrote:If God made "Thou shalt not kill" one of the ten commandments, then why is there murder? Apparently, if he does exist, he doesn't even take himself very seriously.

Another thing I believe is that any "All powerful" being that would alow anything such as genocide, child molestation, muder, anything like that, has under no circumstances earned himself or herself the title of "God", free will or not. No right minded God would allow the horrors that we see today to take place. I agree with the OP: Either there is no God, he isn't a God at all, or he has a sick, sick sense of humor.

Nit pick, the commandment is not “kill” but “murder.” The word “kill” is a mistranslation.

The classic strawman argument

If God really loves us, he would put us all in straight jackets, surround us with bubble wrap and force us all to eat broccoli every day! If God really loves us he would micromanage every aspect of our lives so that every day would be perfect, wonderful, and just like every other day. The sky would always be the right shade of pink, the grass always the right shade of blue, and the sea always the right shade of green.

That’s not love; that’s evil.

Hi Player. : )

dwilhelmi wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:Seriously, volunteer discussion moderator here trying to moderate discussion...

If God does not exist, how do you know something is evil?

Group consensus? If there is no higher power, the only law that would exist is the law we would make for ourselves. Therefore each person would define for themselves what is evil or not evil. At most, you could say that the law of the land decides what is evil. But if there is nothing beyond ourselves, then evil is defined only by ourselves.

Yep. I agree. Evil is a manmade construct and thus should be ignored.