Bamboo Jack (Thai POW Railway) [Quenched]

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:36 am

joecoolfrog wrote:Im pleased that my original post has generated sensible debate and thank you Cairns for not taking it personally and starting the poll.
At the end of the day it is just a game but if it can help people to understand the horrors of war then that is a nice bonus,perhaps a little space could be found on the map as a memorium to those that suffered and died ?

joecoolfrog...thanks for postsing again.
Yes this map has generated debate - healthy - and this is important because it is also a milestone that future maps may be judged by.
I can assure you that from the start, i recognised the sensitivity of the issues and yes i got off to a wrong footing with the initial map, but i listened to the forum and have listened to recent debate - thus the poll.
I am quite prepared and there is no issue with me that if this map goes down then so be it.
A memorium would be most suitable. I'll see what I can do. Are you agreeable with some poppies?

joecoolfrog · Post by **joecoolfrog** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:38 am

Yes I think poppies would be a great idea

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:38 am

joecoolfrog wrote:Yes I think poppies would be a great idea

OK joecoolfrog...if the map goes ahead, i'll include something towards a small memorium with poppies.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:43 am

I think the reason people don't like this map is because we have no idea what it is.

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:02 pm

unriggable wrote:I think the reason people don't like this map is because we have no idea what it is.

ah....unriggable....that is also a plausible explanation, but if I didin't know what something was, i'd either google it or wiki it and find out. I could even ask the cartographer questions.
Sorry unriggable, you'll have to do better than that! :wink:

comic boy · Post by **comic boy** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:21 pm

unriggable wrote:I think the reason people don't like this map is because we have no idea what it is.

Ignorance is bliss......Not

:lol:

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:09 am

Just a reminder about what this poll is about....

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:10 pm

cairnswk wrote:
unriggable wrote:I think the reason people don't like this map is because we have no idea what it is.

ah....unriggable....that is also a plausible explanation, but if I didin't know what something was, i'd either google it or wiki it and find out. I could even ask the cartographer questions.
Sorry unriggable, you'll have to do better than that!

But see, people don't want to learn when playing risk, they want to kick major ass. That's why battle for australia works so well, and 8 thoughts not as much. People know what one of them was.

On top of that, this map looks incredibly complicated.

I GOT SERVED · Post by **I GOT SERVED** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:07 pm

I have no problem with the subject of war, etc. My main issue is that this map looks way to cluttered for my taste, and I'm not a great fan of the gameplay.

XenHu · Post by **XenHu** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:05 am

The entertainment industry produces numerous war-related media. How many WWII movies have their been? What about the incredibly huge number of WWI and WWII inspired video games? And lets not forget, some of that can get incredibly realistic, such as the Beach scene from Saving Private Ryan or a scene from a game in the Call Of Duty series, where an army officer shot a deserter(In front of the players eyes, no less). I think that, if done in a historically accurate and respective manner, realistic portrayals of war are not a problem. Would I watch a scene in a movie if it delt with a Nazi death camp? Yes, if it wasn't overly glorified and kept with history. Now granted, sometimes this doesn't happen, and when it doesn't, I don't support it. But, what I think cairnswk is doing here is just the portrayal of war I would like to see. You may not like it because it was(and still is) a very horrifying time of history. But, does that mean we should ignore the subject? For me, the answer is no.

Keep up the good work cairnswk!

-X

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:14 am

i'm actually planning an Auschwitz-Birkenau map so obviously i think that people that can't deal with a war related map should simply not play it.

i agree war pow camps mass killing and ethnic cleansing can be a harsh subject and many people prefer to consider it tabu. but if done in taste and realistic a subject like this shouldn't cause any adverse reactions.

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:28 pm

Hello cairnswk!

Haven't been around these parts lately, congrats on all the great maps so far.

I do not think you should stop production on this one because of the subject matter. Press onward!

Edutainment!

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:04 am

unriggable wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
unriggable wrote:I think the reason people don't like this map is because we have no idea what it is.

ah....unriggable....that is also a plausible explanation, but if I didin't know what something was, i'd either google it or wiki it and find out. I could even ask the cartographer questions.
Sorry unriggable, you'll have to do better than that!

But see, people don't want to learn when playing risk, they want to kick major ass. That's why battle for australia works so well, and 8 thoughts not as much. People know what one of them was.

On top of that, this map looks incredibly complicated.

Thanks unriggable for those thoughts....although to some extent i am disinclined to agree with you about people wanting to only kick butt, they might also want some very strategic maps were lots of though is involved about strategy. Also reocognise there are different styles of play available in some of these maps now, and that may take a while to "latch-on" for people to grasp the strategy and play instead of the standard attack and conquer.

Given that 8 Thoughts went into play circa 8 May and Battle for Australia on 20 June, you may have something there, although that is not shown in the recent survey i did below, showing all the total number of games for each map both active and finished since the start.

Pages (not games)
2719 Classic
384 World 2.1
328 British Isles
285 USA
239 Middle Earth
221 Europe
126 Australia
123 North America
120 Alexander's Empire
116 Africa
111 Asia
111 CCU
108 Tamriel
99 Canada
95 Seige!
93 Germany
91 Middle East
90 Ancient Greece
76 King of the Mountains
75 Ireland
69 Discworld
69 Indochina
69 San Francisco
69 USApocalypse
67 Space
65 Brazil
63 Montreal
60 Philippines
59 U.S. Senate
58 Great Lakes
56 Artic
53 Age fo Merchants
52 Hong Kong
47 BeNeLux
47 Cairns Coral Coast
45 Chinese Checkers
44 Circus Maximus
42 WWII Eastern Front
38 8 Thoughts
33 Crossword
32 Mongol Empire
27 Battle for Australia
27 Caribbean Islands
17 Doodle Earth
16 Ext. Glbl. Warming
12 Valley Of The Kings

And yes people are not familiar with this map and many may not have heard of the Thai-Burma Railway from WWII, but congratulations, now that you have, you've joined the next generation to be edumacated, now you have some more knowledge.

Isn't it wonderful to grow!

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:07 am

I GOT SERVED wrote:I have no problem with the subject of war, etc. My main issue is that this map looks way to cluttered for my taste, and I'm not a great fan of the gameplay.

Thanks for your comment I GOT SERVED

Do you have any suggestions that might increased your 'enthusiasm" of the gameplay?

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:10 am

XenHu wrote:The entertainment industry produces numerous war-related media. How many WWII movies have their been? What about the incredibly huge number of WWI and WWII inspired video games? And lets not forget, some of that can get incredibly realistic, such as the Beach scene from Saving Private Ryan or a scene from a game in the Call Of Duty series, where an army officer shot a deserter(In front of the players eyes, no less). I think that, if done in a historically accurate and respective manner, realistic portrayals of war are not a problem. Would I watch a scene in a movie if it delt with a Nazi death camp? Yes, if it wasn't overly glorified and kept with history. Now granted, sometimes this doesn't happen, and when it doesn't, I don't support it. But, what I think cairnswk is doing here is just the portrayal of war I would like to see. You may not like it because it was(and still is) a very horrifying time of history. But, does that mean we should ignore the subject? For me, the answer is no.

Keep up the good work cairnswk!

-X

XenHU...thank-you for your well-spoken support. Nice to have you on-board

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:12 am

DiM wrote:i'm actually planning an Auschwitz-Birkenau map so obviously i think that people that can't deal with a war related map should simply not play it.

i agree war pow camps mass killing and ethnic cleansing can be a harsh subject and many people prefer to consider it tabu. but if done in taste and realistic a subject like this shouldn't cause any adverse reactions.

Thanks DiM....so you plans are afoot!!!!!

BTW have you checked out the RAIL EUROPE map yet?

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:16 am

Gozar wrote:Hello cairnswk!

Haven't been around these parts lately, congrats on all the great maps so far.

I do not think you should stop production on this one because of the subject matter. Press onward!

Edutainment!

Yaaayyyyyy!!!!! Gozar's back.
***Cairns runs around dizzily - waving his arms around like Kermit the Frog ***

Good the hear from you, and thanks as always for your thoughts.

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:50 pm

I can't find bamboo jack anywhere, can you send me a copy?

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:39 pm

unriggable wrote:I can't find bamboo jack anywhere, can you send me a copy?

Try this unriggable

Bamboo Jack

unriggable · Post by **unriggable** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:10 pm

cairnswk wrote:
unriggable wrote:I can't find bamboo jack anywhere, can you send me a copy?

Try this unriggable

Bamboo Jack

Thanks a bunch.

BTW I'm a bit shocked by the stats of Battle of Australia, must say that it is one of my favorite maps on this site ATM because of the center.

TRIPLE EDIT

Just because its an unknown idea doesn't necessarily make it a good map idea. Many havent heard of the bombing of Dresden, as horrible as that was, doesn't make it a good map (QUAD EDIT I think I ave an idea).

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:55 am

unriggable wrote:
Thanks a bunch.

BTW I'm a bit shocked by the stats of Battle of Australia, must say that it is one of my favorite maps on this site ATM because of the center.

Glad to hear u like it !

XenHu · Post by **XenHu** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:25 am

It appears that a majority of the Foundry is in favor of this map.

Are you still going to work on it Cairnswk?

-X

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:34 pm

XenHu wrote:It appears that a majority of the Foundry is in favor of this map.

Are you still going to work on it Cairnswk?

-X

Yes XenHu...most definitely with votes like those.

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:50 pm

I agree that this entire site is just a game about war, so it seems a bit ironic that some would be upset about a war map that actually portrays a war. However, by presenting a poll that is clearly designed to elicit a particular result you are both invalidating the poll itself and you are invalidating the concerns of those who may be offended by this map.

I would have liked to have seen you present your position, as mapmaker, as well as the position of those offended, as background for this poll, and then just pose a simple question: do you feel the map should continue? You may have seen different results... or maybe not.

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:32 pm

oaktown wrote:I agree that this entire site is just a game about war, so it seems a bit ironic that some would be upset about a war map that actually portrays a war. However, by presenting a poll that is clearly designed to elicit a particular result you are both invalidating the poll itself and you are invalidating the concerns of those who may be offended by this map.

I would have liked to have seen you present your position, as mapmaker, as well as the position of those offended, as background for this poll, and then just pose a simple question: do you feel the map should continue? You may have seen different results... or maybe not.

oaktown...thanks for joining the commentary....
i think my position as mapmaker for this map is well documented throughout this thread for those who want to read it.
The poll above was posed simply for the benefit of those who objected to the map having some of the elements of the realism of war in it. I see no harm in that, and yes it has acheived a specififc result. I fpeople still wanted the map not to continue, they could still have voted no to achieve the same result for themselves.