Nut Shot Scott wrote:Yeah I can do that. But it's confusing because I thought when you change names, you're a new clan.
Understandable, because usually when there is a name change it's because clans have split and/or joined and are forming a new clan. In that case, the war records are gone and the new clan starts with a clean slate. In our case TSM was closing down and many of their players came into KORT as a group. However we were still KORT and they joined us rather than disbanding both clans and starting a new clan.
Later we had clan discussions regarding our name and jointly decided that a new name that reflected both KORT and TSM would be ideal. We came up with Spanked and Milked. So S&M is the same clan as KORT and war records should be combined rather than separate. Does that make more sense?
Shirlie
Yeah, that makes more sense.
At the end of the day, it's all pretty arbitrary and decided by humans with feelings and bias. When AOC and EMP joined forces we wanted to maintain the war records of one of the clans but the clan community was up in arms as far as I can remember, saying it had to be a new clan starting with a blank slate from scratch. Which is what we ended up doing and climbed the ranks to a top 3 clan for a while. But it always struck me how emotional people were that we had to be a new clan with no history, and yet the same (IMO emotional) reactions didn't always apply to other very similar situations.
In other words, if we had simply said, "Oh all these EMP guys are coming to AOC and we're changing our name" (or vice versa) then we could have kept the history, but because we resisted saying those exact words it had to be starting from scratch.
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High Score: 4112 - 11-30-2014 New High Score: 4164 - 4/9/20 New High Score: 4315 - 4/5/21
hyposquasher wrote:
At the end of the day, it's all pretty arbitrary and decided by humans with feelings and bias. When AOC and EMP joined forces we wanted to maintain the war records of one of the clans but the clan community was up in arms as far as I can remember, saying it had to be a new clan starting with a blank slate from scratch. Which is what we ended up doing and climbed the ranks to a top 3 clan for a while. But it always struck me how emotional people were that we had to be a new clan with no history, and yet the same (IMO emotional) reactions didn't always apply to other very similar situations.
In other words, if we had simply said, "Oh all these EMP guys are coming to AOC and we're changing our name" (or vice versa) then we could have kept the history, but because we resisted saying those exact words it had to be starting from scratch.
To be fair, it's a bit deeper than that. I remember multiple people arguing that ACE should not have been a new clan and needed to pick the record of either EMP or AOC to continue. I'm not sure who made the final call, but all the options were presented and it was ACE that decided to be a brand new clan rather than a continuation of one or the other. From what I recall from the discussions, I believe that as it was a merger with neither one really being dominant compared to the other, there was no way to decide whether it was EMP absorbing AOC or the other way around, so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
hyposquasher wrote:
At the end of the day, it's all pretty arbitrary and decided by humans with feelings and bias. When AOC and EMP joined forces we wanted to maintain the war records of one of the clans but the clan community was up in arms as far as I can remember, saying it had to be a new clan starting with a blank slate from scratch. Which is what we ended up doing and climbed the ranks to a top 3 clan for a while. But it always struck me how emotional people were that we had to be a new clan with no history, and yet the same (IMO emotional) reactions didn't always apply to other very similar situations.
In other words, if we had simply said, "Oh all these EMP guys are coming to AOC and we're changing our name" (or vice versa) then we could have kept the history, but because we resisted saying those exact words it had to be starting from scratch.
To be fair, it's a bit deeper than that. I remember multiple people arguing that ACE should not have been a new clan and needed to pick the record of either EMP or AOC to continue. I'm not sure who made the final call, but all the options were presented and it was ACE that decided to be a brand new clan rather than a continuation of one or the other. From what I recall from the discussions, I believe that as it was a merger with neither one really being dominant compared to the other, there was no way to decide whether it was EMP absorbing AOC or the other way around, so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
I must admit I don't remember having those options, I thought because we called it a merger we weren't allowed to. Because we were kind of the first to do it though, I don't think people knew it would happen again or often and so they relaxed that, or protected themselves when declaring later.
hyposquasher wrote:
At the end of the day, it's all pretty arbitrary and decided by humans with feelings and bias. When AOC and EMP joined forces we wanted to maintain the war records of one of the clans but the clan community was up in arms as far as I can remember, saying it had to be a new clan starting with a blank slate from scratch. Which is what we ended up doing and climbed the ranks to a top 3 clan for a while. But it always struck me how emotional people were that we had to be a new clan with no history, and yet the same (IMO emotional) reactions didn't always apply to other very similar situations.
In other words, if we had simply said, "Oh all these EMP guys are coming to AOC and we're changing our name" (or vice versa) then we could have kept the history, but because we resisted saying those exact words it had to be starting from scratch.
To be fair, it's a bit deeper than that. I remember multiple people arguing that ACE should not have been a new clan and needed to pick the record of either EMP or AOC to continue. I'm not sure who made the final call, but all the options were presented and it was ACE that decided to be a brand new clan rather than a continuation of one or the other. From what I recall from the discussions, I believe that as it was a merger with neither one really being dominant compared to the other, there was no way to decide whether it was EMP absorbing AOC or the other way around, so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
I must admit I don't remember having those options, I thought because we called it a merger we weren't allowed to. Because we were kind of the first to do it though, I don't think people knew it would happen again or often and so they relaxed that, or protected themselves when declaring later.
Furthermore, I remember that internally we had discussions about how the way it had to work which was being forced on us, didn't really make sense to us. We could develop these arguments against it internally but at the end of the day, we made a decision to not present arguments and cause a big, ugly thing in the forums. Plus, if we started with a clean slate and climbed the ladder again, no one could argue that we deserved it. So we set the matter aside rather quickly without much argument, though I always felt it was a bit arbitrary with other similar situations later treated differently.
So we did start with a clean slate and we did climb the ladder again, and that was great and a lot of fun and also rewarding to have done it. It only seems to "bite us" when we have these historical conversations and none of us in AoC gets the benefit of our accomplishments prior to that.
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High Score: 4112 - 11-30-2014 New High Score: 4164 - 4/9/20 New High Score: 4315 - 4/5/21
Doc_Brown wrote:
To be fair, it's a bit deeper than that. I remember multiple people arguing that ACE should not have been a new clan and needed to pick the record of either EMP or AOC to continue. I'm not sure who made the final call, but all the options were presented and it was ACE that decided to be a brand new clan rather than a continuation of one or the other. From what I recall from the discussions, I believe that as it was a merger with neither one really being dominant compared to the other, there was no way to decide whether it was EMP absorbing AOC or the other way around, so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
And I'm sorry, didn't mean to ignore part of what you said. We did have the option to say that one clan was absorbing the other. But that didn't feel right as both clans were relatively equal in accomplishments and recent history at the time. It was a little bit of an offense to one clan or the other to say it had to be absorbed to the other. I understand the difficulty in the situation and that's why at the end of the day, we didn't muck about arguing incessantly and we simply agreed to start over. It just felt like we weren't always treated the same as many others over the years and that was an example that stands out to me.
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High Score: 4112 - 11-30-2014 New High Score: 4164 - 4/9/20 New High Score: 4315 - 4/5/21
Doc_Brown wrote:
To be fair, it's a bit deeper than that. I remember multiple people arguing that ACE should not have been a new clan and needed to pick the record of either EMP or AOC to continue. I'm not sure who made the final call, but all the options were presented and it was ACE that decided to be a brand new clan rather than a continuation of one or the other. From what I recall from the discussions, I believe that as it was a merger with neither one really being dominant compared to the other, there was no way to decide whether it was EMP absorbing AOC or the other way around, so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
And I'm sorry, didn't mean to ignore part of what you said. We did have the option to say that one clan was absorbing the other. But that didn't feel right as both clans were relatively equal in accomplishments and recent history at the time. It was a little bit of an offense to one clan or the other to say it had to be absorbed to the other. I understand the difficulty in the situation and that's why at the end of the day, we didn't muck about arguing incessantly and we simply agreed to start over. It just felt like we weren't always treated the same as many others over the years and that was an example that stands out to me.
Oh yeah, I do remember that now. It definitely hurt us in these sorts of look backs, but I do remember us deciding to do that since we wanted to make sure everyone felt equal and build a new united group. In the end, it worked really well, and had a blast while it was active
Doc_Brown wrote:...so you just went with a brand new group and took the two original clans social.
This was also a huge deal for us. We still had people that would come back and pop into the forums and chat, so we wanted to be able to keep the forum, and we were told that if we merged into a clan, that we wouldn't be able to keep the social user group for that group that chose to be the one merged into. It didn't feel right to merge people into a forum of ours, or vice versa and we wanted to be able to still have that space to chat with those that weren't a part of the new group. Empire was always a very social clan.
Right, I know I'm coming back here like 20 days later now, but that is a great point that I had forgotten. After we decided the route we were going to take (starting a new clan, from scratch) there was this -- I'm sorry, but -- ridiculous deadline to get anything we wanted out of our forums because the site (CC) had this -- I'm sorry, but -- ridiculous need to delete our previous clan's forums. And they were indeed deleted, and all that content was gone (if we didn't take it somewhere else). Talk about ridiculous. Like a bunch of text on a server somewhere is taking up tons of space that can't be afforded? It was like we were being punished for what we did. That's the feel that the whole thing has always had. And then other clans get to do something super similar and get all the accolades for how great they were? They really were great and I don't want to take away from anyone else, but it really feels/felt like every attempt has been made over the years to diminish our players.
Blah. Sorry for being a debby downer. Swimmer's last post really recalled for me how much it has always felt to be on the outside of some club looking in.
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High Score: 4112 - 11-30-2014 New High Score: 4164 - 4/9/20 New High Score: 4315 - 4/5/21
niMic wrote:Pretty sure I had one of the all-time worst CL performances in CL13. I was extremely close to retiring.
I'm still not that far.
There have likely been worse performances by players in lesser clans. However, considering you are a strong player in a top clan, going 10-22 is epic and would probably make me want to quit. Cannot imagine the run of bad dice you had to endure to get to that record.
IcePack wrote:Five out of the Top 10 eh? Seems pretty good
2 of top 3 is nice.
And we can fight over #10
If you wanna fight over #10, then I suppose the majority of your past history of 2 of Top 3 would belong elsewhere to? Since it was mostly under a diff banner
Either way 4/10 all under one banner over an extended period of time is still pretty good
fac vitam incredibilem memento vivere Knowledge Weighs Nothing, Carry All You Can
