Conquer Club

GrazingCattle wrote:I read the first page or two of this inane thread and found some statements that seemed unfounded. Namely when Jay_a2j said that Jehovah Witnesses promoted false teachings and amounted to a cult (they are actually called Jehovah's Witnesses).

I am afraid you are way off base. What teachings of theirs do you find are false?


(please enlighten me!)

Here's a few:

1) Jesus is less than God.

2) They can not take blood transfusions (because they twist a scripture to justify this belief)

3) Jesus is not God (they believe they are "one in spirit" but not one and the same)

4) They believe the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations are Jehovah's Witnesses and not Jews as stated in scripture.

5) They used to predict Christ's return but after many predictions that went unfulfilled they stopped predicting it.

b.k. barunt wrote:Sounds like a bit of exagerration there rallis - when i made that comment about insults, i didn't know you were going to turn yourself into a martyr. I do not (nor did i) call you a coward, but you guys haven't done much of a job defending your faith. If you have a problem with discussing things openly (and this is especially for Optimus), and you don't like to argue, why did you start? Seems kind of hypocritical - like backglass with his sanctimonious "religion should only be discussed in private", while you see him and his opinions on any and every religious thread.

I for one, did not start "arguing" with anyone, I started by simply answering a question or two, and clarifying a few points. It was then that others decided to come at us full force with questions about things they won't even begin to understand until they understand the basic, BASIC tenets of our faith. I'm not going to spend time defending things that everyone is not going to even begin to grasp when they are not willing to find out about the basic truths of my faith. It is a losing battle when others don't want to even try.

rallison wrote:

Beastly wrote:

Optimus Prime wrote:Secondly, I don't understand the "No sin is greater than another" line. That is not quite true, certain sins carry a heavier weight, but getting to a certain level of heaven has to do with how many sins you commit and whether or not you repent of them, not which ones they were.

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
man does not has the ability to stop sinning if he simply chooses to.

Unlike crime, which involves the breaking of human law, sin is a condition of the heart or an expression of that condition where we are estranged from God and fail to trust in God.
Sin expresses itself in particular acts.

man is hopelessly enslaved by his sins (apart from God’s intervention) and his good works are “dead” or worthless in meriting God’s favor (Ephesians 2:1-2; Matthew 15:18-19; Romans 7:23; Hebrews 6:1; 9:14).

This is why many don't consider LDS members to be "Christian".

Religious syncretism is simply not compatible with true Christianity. In fact, any modification to Biblical law and principle for the sake of a better religion is heresy (Revelation 22:18-19).

Ok, i understand and agree that we are all sinners, and that we cannot change that alone. But what does this have to do with all sins being equal? Do you really think that killing someone and stealing a cookie amounts to the same thing?[/quote


I bolded what I was trying to get across to you... and by the way, if you kill someone you are a Murderer, if you steal a cookie, You are a Thief.

both are against the law, so if you break a law, you are a law breaker...

both the same.. But aside from that, we all aren't law breakers, yet we are all sinners.

make sense now?

oh and I forgot... Are you gonna answer the questions I had, or ignore it still?

jay_a2j wrote:

GrazingCattle wrote:I read the first page or two of this inane thread and found some statements that seemed unfounded. Namely when Jay_a2j said that Jehovah Witnesses promoted false teachings and amounted to a cult (they are actually called Jehovah's Witnesses).

I am afraid you are way off base. What teachings of theirs do you find are false?


(please enlighten me!)

(because they twist a scripture to justify this belief)

.

twisting scripture to justify a belief.


sounds christian to me.

rallison wrote:I I wont post every 15 minutes on something, especially when the same question has been asked 3 times(beastly's "be married in a mormon temple or go to hell")

just to clarify... I never asked you not even one question... I already KNEW it, the point was about the Topic in this thread...

Are you a Christian...

Christians define themselves as not just followers of Christ, but there redemption rest upon the death of Christ.
If you have to be Married in a Temple to get to heaven, then why did Christ have to die?

I feel my post was valid. I was not trying to make you angry.

Christians don't feel mormons are christian also, because LDS people follow the teachings of Joseph Smith. Who claims to be more of a profit than Jesus.

The questions I did propose to you still have not been answered. And I already know they won't be. Because you don't have the answer for me. I would be happy even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear.

which questions were those? I thought that last big post was the last questions you had asked... if not would you mind re-posting them?

Joseph Smith never claimed to be more of a prophet then Jesus, and we follow his teachings the same as we follow all the other teachings from prophets of god.

rallison wrote:which questions were those? I thought that last big post was the last questions you had asked... if not would you mind re-posting them?

Joseph Smith never claimed to be more of a prophet then Jesus, and we follow his teachings the same as we follow all the other teachings from prophets of god.

Was Jesus a prophet of God or is He God?

jay_a2j wrote:Was Jesus a prophet of God or is He God?

He is the Son of God, a separate and distinct individual.

Optimus Prime wrote:

jay_a2j wrote:Was Jesus a prophet of God or is He God?

He is the Son of God, a separate and distinct individual.

Yeah, thats what a JW told me once. It took some prodding but I finally got them to admit that they did not believe Jesus was God. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY THESE RELIGIONS ARE NOT CHRISTIAN.

Beastly, when I posted the Articles of Faith for the LDS Church it was not meant as proof that we are the same as the other churches. It was meant to outline the basic beliefs so that maybe once getting a handle on those, everyone might someday be able to at least "understand" why we believe the way we do.

It was simply an effort to clarify what we "actually" believe.

Backglass wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:It's very easy (not to mention cowardly) to sit back and snipe at others' beliefs when you have none yourself to defend.

Yup thats me the coward...the one who believes death is real and final. The cowardice exists in those who cant deal with life and must invent fables and lore in order to sleep at night.

b.k. barunt wrote:I've never heard you take a stand for anything,

Then you need to read the forums more.

b.k. barunt wrote:but you seem to love attacking those that do. Go figure.

I find it hilarious that one religion points fingers at another and says "CULTISTS!!!!"...don't you? Probably not, if you are the ones being pointed at.

You are stubborn, foolish and cowardly because you refuse to admit that you are wrong. Those of us to bother to humble themselves before God are not so. I'm not preaching a 'holier-than-thou' word (that is contrary to my beliefs and thus I don't do so), but if you refuse to see the truth and the light, there is very little I can do 'cept be a lantern of God's love in your life. Which is what christians are called to do anyway. I pray that you'll have a change of heart.

b.k. barunt wrote:Allow me to further clarify here, just in case jenos thinks i'm on his "side" too. I lay no claims to following Jesus, and from jenos' behavior, i don't know why he does. The Mormons haven't done a very good job of defending their faith here, but they have refrained from returning insults that jenos and exile (and myself) have given them. No jenos, just because some of us are against Mormonism, that does not make us on your "side". I won't drag the name of Jesus through the mud by claiming to follow him if my life does not reflect His teachings - maybe you should do the same (James 3:17).

Firstly, the statement of side-choosing was a joke. Still, those who aren't Mormans, save guys like Backglass, are most definately NOT on the Morman's 'side'.

And please clarify how pointing out obvious contradions in an obvious heretical and even blasphemous doctrine and agreeing with prior statements by others is considered insulting them?

Thanks for the verse, BTW.

Optimus Prime wrote:Beastly, when I posted the Articles of Faith for the LDS Church it was not meant as proof that we are the same as the other churches. It was meant to outline the basic beliefs so that maybe once getting a handle on those, everyone might someday be able to at least "understand" why we believe the way we do.

It was simply an effort to clarify what we "actually" believe.

It is important to learn how Christian terms have been redefined by Mormonism, thats why i posted the difference in the terms.

rallison wrote:which questions were those? I thought that last big post was the last questions you had asked... if not would you mind re-posting them?

Joseph Smith never claimed to be more of a prophet then Jesus, and we follow his teachings the same as we follow all the other teachings from prophets of god.

I guess we would have to agree on just what a "prophet" is? But I have seen a sermon from Joseph Smith who has boasted about doing more than Jesus did.

"I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412



and here is my question...

What specific doctrine of Mormonism is in the Book of Mormon that isn't in the Bible?

I think the answer to Beastly's question could be the key here. I've never considered that angle before, and i think she's hit to the heart of the problem. If the "fullness of the gospel" is in the Book of Mormon, that's where we need to look to get the "basics" of your faith.

b.k. barunt wrote:like backglass with his sanctimonious "religion should only be discussed in private", while you see him and his opinions on any and every religious thread.

Hypocritical would be me starting yet another thread about religion/non-religion...which you will never see me do, thanks. Nice try though.

Jenos Ridan wrote:You are stubborn, foolish and cowardly because you refuse to admit that you are wrong.

Wrong about what? Did you mis-quote?

Jenos Ridan wrote: Those of us to bother to humble themselves before God are not so.

Whatever the hell THAT is supposed to mean...as "Those of us who believe in Leprechauns are not so" either.

Jenos Ridan wrote:I'm not preaching a 'holier-than-thou' word (that is contrary to my beliefs and thus I don't do so), but if you refuse to see the truth and the light, there is very little I can do 'cept be a lantern of God's love in your life. Which is what christians are called to do anyway. I pray that you'll have a change of heart.

I can play this game too!

You have been brainwashed and preached to, most likely since birth, and believe wholeheartedly the stories you have been told. I hope that you will one day awaken from your stupor, learn to think for yourself and see that your are living your life for fairy tales, legends and myths, instead of for the here and now. You can save your prayers...I don't believe in superstitions or rituals.

Which brings us back to the original question - what do you believe in?

Optimus Prime wrote:

b.k. barunt wrote:Sounds like a bit of exagerration there rallis - when i made that comment about insults, i didn't know you were going to turn yourself into a martyr. I do not (nor did i) call you a coward, but you guys haven't done much of a job defending your faith. If you have a problem with discussing things openly (and this is especially for Optimus), and you don't like to argue, why did you start? Seems kind of hypocritical - like backglass with his sanctimonious "religion should only be discussed in private", while you see him and his opinions on any and every religious thread.

I for one, did not start "arguing" with anyone, I started by simply answering a question or two, and clarifying a few points. It was then that others decided to come at us full force with questions about things they won't even begin to understand until they understand the basic, BASIC tenets of our faith. I'm not going to spend time defending things that everyone is not going to even begin to grasp when they are not willing to find out about the basic truths of my faith. It is a losing battle when others don't want to even try.

I agree, first 2 pages it was a debate. Next ten Pages it was a rant and rave section. People can't disscuss anything without getting emotional or pretending to be infallible. However I agree with you that this turned into a bash the Mormon rant, there were some good questions worth answering that got lost in the fingerpointing. While I thought you were A christian sect, guess it turns out that the Christians hate your group the most. Go figure...

b.k. barunt wrote:At any rate, Beastly seems to have scared off Optimo, Static Ice seems to have switched from Mormons to Moonies, so what's next?

actually, if you payed attention that was 2dimes, I'm just answering stuff... (and the reason he started was cuz I commented on some things so you guys didn't have the wrong idea on stuff...

anyway go and carry on with mormonism...

"I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412

I think your also reading what you want to see,(I'm not saying he isn't boasting) but he could be saying
"I have accomplished,The chuch I have created stands united as ONE(instead of thousands of pieces) Jesus did not have as many followers, nor were they as loyal to him...etc.."

Thats why I dont bother with the bible, it was written by men trying to sound like god, If It were written by god the bible would say "Be Good" (thanks Mencia!)

I'm not preaching a 'holier-than-thou' word (that is contrary to my beliefs and thus I don't do so), but if you refuse to see the truth and the light, there is very little I can do 'cept be a lantern of God's love in your life. Which is what christians are called to do anyway. I pray that you'll have a change of heart.

I agree Backglass,
Whenever I hear Jenos "being a latern of gods' love" The last feeling I get in the pit of my stomach is a humble and caring one. Jenos, your words are too closeminded,hypocratic,and angry to be the word of my saviour or creater. The female divinity that she is

b.k. barunt wrote:Which brings us back to the original question - what do you believe in?

I believe:

• I can fly...
• that children are our future...
• we put a man on the moon...
• that love is the answer...
• in magic, of a young girls heart...
• in life after love...
• in a favor of a good intention

BUT.....what a fool believes he sees, the wise man has the POWER to reason away.

Backglass wrote:I agree. All religious discussions should be private. If only more were like you and would take it private, it would be a lot nicer world to live in for the rest of us.

so you're not a fan of free speech? if you don't want to be involved in this discussion, i suggest not clicking on the link to this thread. really pretty simple. and btw, every time you post here, you're contributing to a religious discussion. get your head out of your ass. also, do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to call the entirety of Christianity a cult?

rallison wrote:Personally, I think that a Christian is someone who believes in Christ, knows that He died for our sins and that there is no way we could be saved without him. A Christian is someone who tries to follow His teachings.

That’s what Christianity is to me. What is it to everyone else?

i've tried to make this point, perhaps not directly enough: a big part of the problem here is that some folks (jay, jenos, and beastly to a lesser extent) are trying to define Christianity in a narrow sense. conversely, as optimus has noted, plenty of non-LDS folks are trying to define LDS faith and doctrine arbitrarily, and not listening to the actual claims of actual LDS people.

it doesn't matter what you believe. if you want to talk about differences between the LDS church and Christianity, you need to do a few things first. one, know something about LDS teachings. optimus gave us something on that. two, know something about Christianity (this was the1exile's problem). three, remember that your branch of Christianity is not the end-all and be-all of the faith, and that there are much broader considerations than your own pet beliefs (i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity). and maybe four, don't get all twisted up about this; act like an adult.

so, back to the suggestion i've made before: one classic expression of what it means to be Christian is the Apostle's Creed. another is the Nicean Creed. would anyone like to compare one or both of these to what we know about LDS doctrine, and possible in light of optimus's post about it?

the problem i'm seeing here is a lot of reductionism. some folks trying to reduce LDS to some stereotype, then compare it to their reduced/biased version of Xty or some narrow part of it. alternately, some are taking a few phrases from mormon lit or joseph smith sermons and blowing them up huge, and trying to make a few lifted quotes into the basis for a final judgment. if we want to talk big picture, we have to know a lot of details, and have some guidelines for what the big picture actually is. probably too much to expect from a CC forum.

Nephilim wrote:so you're not a fan of free speech?

Never said that.

Nephilim wrote: if you don't want to be involved in this discussion, i suggest not clicking on the link to this thread.

Never said that either. You really like inserting words into peoples mouths huh?

Nephilim wrote:every time you post here, you're contributing to a religious discussion.

No! Thats frickin' amazing.... Any other obvious facts you wish to point out?

Nephilim wrote:get your head out of your ass. also, do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to call the entirety of Christianity a cult?

OK back at ya... Do you realize how ridiculously stupid it is to live your life for, and actually WORSHIP grand stories written by an ancient people?

Yet, I am proclaimed to be the proud bearer of an Ass-hat because I don't believe in a flavor of magical, super-sky daddy....Gotcha.

Nephilim wrote:and maybe four, don't get all twisted up about this; act like an adult.

Yup...even with those who don't believe. You might try "practicing what you preach" there churchy-boy.

Nephilim wrote:

rallison wrote:uot;]
Personally, I think that a Christian is someone who believes in Christ, knows that He died for our sins and that there is no way we could be saved without him. A Christian is someone who tries to follow His teachings.

That’s what Christianity is to me. What is it to everyone else?

i've tried to make this point, perhaps not directly enough: a big part of the problem here is that some folks (jay, jenos, and beastly to a lesser extent) are trying to define Christianity in a narrow sense. conversely, as optimus has noted, plenty of non-LDS folks are trying to define LDS faith and doctrine arbitrarily, and not listening to the actual claims of actual LDS people.

it doesn't matter what you believe. if you want to talk about differences between the LDS church and Christianity, you need to do a few things first. one, know something about LDS teachings. optimus gave us something on that. two, know something about Christianity (this was the1exile's problem). three, remember that your branch of Christianity is not the end-all and be-all of the faith, and that there are much broader considerations than your own pet beliefs (i.e., jay's insistence on the "born-again" thing; not everyone considers this as THE defining mark of Christianity). and maybe four, don't get all twisted up about this; act like an adult.

so, back to the suggestion i've made before: one classic expression of what it means to be Christian is the Apostle's Creed. another is the Nicean Creed. would anyone like to compare one or both of these to what we know about LDS doctrine, and possible in light of optimus's post about it?

the problem i'm seeing here is a lot of reductionism. some folks trying to reduce LDS to some stereotype, then compare it to their reduced/biased version of Xty or some narrow part of it. alternately, some are taking a few phrases from mormon lit or joseph smith sermons and blowing them up huge, and trying to make a few lifted quotes into the basis for a final judgment. if we want to talk big picture, we have to know a lot of details, and have some guidelines for what the big picture actually is. probably too much to expect from a CC forum.

Did you want the Whole Sermon? Sorry if you didn't like the way I exposed a "Christian" who claims to have done more than Christ himself.

You don't understand how a "Christian" would find that quote from Joseph Smith as rude and arrogant. A "Christian" would never claim to have done more than Christ.

I felt this was important to show because this is another reason why Christians don't believe that LDS are Christian.

How was that blown up?

How come you make a thread, and then try to change the whole subject of the thread when Valid points are exposed?

I have been giving you points of just why Christians don't believe MORMONS are Christian. isn't that why you made this thread?


The point is Just because someone claims they are Christian doesn't mean that they are.

You already know that mormons believe themselves to be Christian. Your Thread is asking why other Christians don't believe them to be such.

So I come and try to show you why, and you come off with "a lot of reductionism" and blah blah blah... Well just what do you expect? For people to say well dahhhh I don't know why they aren't Christian, they just aren't.

Sry some of us are more educated on this subject than you are and you can't handle it.

You should put more thought into your posts, and thread making.

About for the specific differences between the Book of Mormon and the bible, I’m not exactly sure. I use both books as scripture, and I don’t know exactly the differences are. I looked on google real quick to see if I could find a list of differences, but didn’t find one. I’ll tell you the way I look at them: Why do we use the book of Mark when we have Matthew? Why have the New Testament when we have the Old Testament? Quite simply, its another point of view. It’s from another people who wrote about Jesus Christ.

About the fullness of the gospel

I'll start with a quote from Ezra Taft Benson, one of the leaders of the church who we consider to be a prophet:

"The Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ (D&C 20:9). That does not mean it contains every teaching, every doctrine ever revealed. Rather, it means that in the Book of Mormon we will find the fulness of those doctrines required for our salvation." (Benson, Ezra Taft. A Witness and a Warning. Salt Lake City, 1988. pp. 18-19).

This is NOT saying that we believe the bible does not contain the fullness of the gospel.

We believe the bible contains the fullness of the gospel. They both contain the principles of faith, repentance, baptism and the gift of the holy ghost. Those are what is needed.


I think Nephilim had an excellent point. I said what it meant to me to be a Christian, I haven’t heard from anyone else yet. What does it mean to be a Christian?

Can I input into looking beyond organized religion and just having your own set of beliefs?