Conquer Club

The Bison King wrote:I'm back! and I read the whole thing!

Maybe this will help VOP:

Coward: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity

Maybe he read up to "one who shows disgrace" and stopped reading because he saw enough to support his argument?

See also:

You "read the whole thing" and yet you only flame. No surprise.

ViperOverLord wrote:

The Bison King wrote:I'm back! and I read the whole thing!

Maybe this will help VOP:

Coward: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity

Maybe he read up to "one who shows disgrace" and stopped reading because he saw enough to support his argument?

See also:

You "read the whole thing" and yet you only flame. No surprise.

That's a flame? How?

You "read the whole thing" and yet you only flame. No surprise.

I wanted to chime in but I saw no need. It's all been covered. Woodruff pretty much explained everything to you. Like 4 or 5 times. If you didn't get it from him there's no amount of explaining that will.

WAIT! I had to log off (and go to sleep) and I missed the show, but I had some follow-up.

First, I'm assuming that mviola and Bison King are unsympathetic towards parents who lose their children in a war (because the children volunteered for the armed forces and thus put themselves into harms way). This is a separate thought than the thought that I agree with (which is that when video games of warfare, crime, etc. get produced, I tend to ignore when people speak out against the game). In other words, I'm not saying, "Don't produce this game." I'm saying that we should all be sympathetic to anyone whose children die, regardless of the circumstances.

Second, my question regarding "does it matter where the soldier was" is in reference to the idea that if the soldiers fought in a war that mviola and Bison King supported (like, I thought, the war in Afghanistan), they would by sympathetic to parents. That was the point of that question.

Third, I have a follow-up question - are you (mviola and Bison King) sympathetic to the parents of a police officer killed in the line of duty (or a firefighter killed in the line of duty)? From what I understand of your reasoning, you would not be sympathetic because the police officer and firefighter volunteered for those jobs. On the other hand, if you are sympathetic to the parents of the deceased police officer or firefighter, how are those jobs different from a solider's job?

My point is this - There is a difference between supporting the war and/or supporting the bad things our soldiers do versus being sympathetic to a parent who has lost their child in a war. So when mviola says "He shouldn't have went overseas then" and Bison King says "duh," they are being unsympathetic to a parent who has lost their child in a war.

Back to the original subject of the thread, the woman is a fooking moron. A self obsessed fooking moron.

If her son were a race car driver killed in a crash she'd be whining about an auto racing game. Speaking of cowardice, someone should have the balls to tell the bitch to STFU.


Honibaz

Third, I have a follow-up question - are you (mviola and Bison King) sympathetic to the parents of a police officer killed in the line of duty (or a firefighter killed in the line of duty)? From what I understand of your reasoning, you would not be sympathetic because the police officer and firefighter volunteered for those jobs. On the other hand, if you are sympathetic to the parents of the deceased police officer or firefighter, how are those jobs different from a solider's job?

I can't speak for mviola, but I've tried to make it abundantly clear that I am sympathetic to those who have already died though, I disrespect the decision that put themselves in that situation in the first place. All mviola was trying to say is that you shouldn't complain about a calculated risk.

The Bison King wrote:

Third, I have a follow-up question - are you (mviola and Bison King) sympathetic to the parents of a police officer killed in the line of duty (or a firefighter killed in the line of duty)? From what I understand of your reasoning, you would not be sympathetic because the police officer and firefighter volunteered for those jobs. On the other hand, if you are sympathetic to the parents of the deceased police officer or firefighter, how are those jobs different from a solider's job?

I can't speak for mviola, but I've tried to make it abundantly clear that I am sympathetic to those who have already died though, I disrespect the decision that put themselves in that situation in the first place. All mviola was trying to say is that you shouldn't complain about a calculated risk.

You disrespect their decision to join the military, police, or firefighters? Or just military? What if they were part of the military before the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they died on a base in New Hampshire (rather than in Iraq)?

WAIT! I had to log off (and go to sleep) and I missed the show

I'm sure I'll leave out a ton of juicy details but BASICALLY:

mviola--- said that if you don't want your kids to die don't let them go to war.

Bison King (that's me)--- said duh.

Everyone--- gave us total shit for it.

Bison King--- backed mviola for saying what he did against public opinion, and claimed that it took a lot of courage to do so.

Viper over Lord--- found the thread, and believed that it was far from brave but a completely "cowardly" comment.

Woodruff--- Came on and tried to explain to VOP that though he did not agree for mviola's comment it was far from cowardly to say what he did.

VOP--- then dismissed Woodruff as a coward too, around this time he also decided to completely twist what mviola said into meaning that mviola believed everyone who went to war deserved to die. This (I shouldn't need to clarify) is far from what mviola said or meant and was a complete fabrication.

Bison King--- I asked VOP numerous times to point out where mviola said that troops deserved to die and he never replied.

Woodruff--- berated VOP for lying and tried to explain in great detail why it wasn't cowardly to speak out against public opinion but in fact quite the opposite. He also tried to explain the complexities of agreeing with someones right to say something while not agreeing with what they are saying.

VOP--- continued to overs-simplify the situation claiming that anyone who disgraced the troops is a coward.

From that point on it sort of just went back and forth until it reached a fever and personal pitch then fizzled out.

You disrespect their decision to join the military, police, or firefighters? Or just military? What if they were part of the military before the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they died on a base in New Hampshire (rather than in Iraq)?

I have nothing against figherfighters or police.... except f*ck da police j/k

....let me pick my words carefully....

I'm not a militaristic person, nor do I come from a "military" family. I respect that people have joined the military with the intention of protecting American liberties. However (prepares to receive flak) the current war (I believe) is not protecting American liberties. Therefore I do not respect the war. I in turn do not respect the decision of many Americans who have joined the military, since the conflict began, with the implicit goal of flying over sea's and killing Iraqi's.

Though when they die it is still a tragedy.

And I'm totally aware that I probably just stirred shit up all over again, but don't be surprised if I'm not on here that much cause I really don't have all day to waste debating again.

The Bison King wrote:

You disrespect their decision to join the military, police, or firefighters? Or just military? What if they were part of the military before the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they died on a base in New Hampshire (rather than in Iraq)?

I have nothing against figherfighters or police.... except f*ck da police j/k

....let me pick my words carefully....

I'm not a militaristic person, nor do I come from a "military" family. I respect that people have joined the military with the intention of protecting American liberties. However (prepares to receive flak) the current war (I believe) is not protecting American liberties. Therefore I do not respect the war. I in turn do not respect the decision of many Americans who have joined the military, since the conflict began, with the implicit goal of flying over sea's and killing Iraqi's.

Though when they die it is still a tragedy.

Okay, that's a good, thoughtful explanation and one I can understand.

The Bison King wrote:

You disrespect their decision to join the military, police, or firefighters? Or just military? What if they were part of the military before the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they died on a base in New Hampshire (rather than in Iraq)?

I have nothing against figherfighters or police.... except f*ck da police j/k
....let me pick my words carefully....
I'm not a militaristic person, nor do I come from a "military" family. I respect that people have joined the military with the intention of protecting American liberties. However (prepares to receive flak) the current war (I believe) is not protecting American liberties. Therefore I do not respect the war. I in turn do not respect the decision of many Americans who have joined the military, since the conflict began, with the implicit goal of flying over sea's and killing Iraqi's.

I don't particularly respect individuals who may join the military "to go kill ragheads" (as it were). So if that's what you're trying to say there towards the end, then I probably agree with you.

However, just because someone joined since the conflict began doesn't at all mean they're not joining for exactly the RIGHT reasons. It's just bad timing that the conflict is going on right now and, as a military person, they don't have much say in where they go (unless where they want to go is prison). There are many other things going on around the world that our military is involved in (unfortunately), most of which from a military perspective (not political) are good things. As well, most folks in the military want the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan to be done and over with FAR MORE than you do, believe me. The sane soldier despises war, but accepts that someone must be prepared for it and they are willing to do so.

An excellent video to watch on the subject is "Why We Fight". It begins with a segment from Eisenhower's farewell speech in which he warns Americans of the impending takeover of the military by corporate interests. I think i'll start a thread on it.


Honibaz

The Bison King wrote:

You disrespect their decision to join the military, police, or firefighters? Or just military? What if they were part of the military before the actions in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they died on a base in New Hampshire (rather than in Iraq)?

I have nothing against figherfighters or police.... except f*ck da police j/k

....let me pick my words carefully....

I'm not a militaristic person, nor do I come from a "military" family. I respect that people have joined the military with the intention of protecting American liberties. However (prepares to receive flak) the current war (I believe) is not protecting American liberties. Therefore I do not respect the war. I in turn do not respect the decision of many Americans who have joined the military, since the conflict began, with the implicit goal of flying over sea's and killing Iraqi's.

Though when they die it is still a tragedy.

I'm in the same boat as The Bison King. I'm not in a military family; in fact the closest person to a service vet I have is my grandfather who attached radars onto army planes during WWII. But anyway, even if I was in a military family I do not support this war. As it has been said it isn't accomplishing much anymore, except maybe to show the world the U.S. should not be messed with (not a good reason). But at the expense of the loss of Iraqi civilians and American soldiers to find a small radical group of Muslims hiding in the mountains, it is not worth it at all.

To tell you the truth, if I was drafted to go over to the war, I'd probably move to Canada. But that doesn't make me respect soldiers less. Or fire fighters and the police. However there is a calculated risk with their jobs that they could pass away in the line of duty. The police officers and fire fighters protect us everyday and without them, it would be chaos at home. However the Iraqis and Afghanis are not directly threatening us. It was more of the disgust with the war that made me say what I said.

Bump

Georgerx7di wrote:Bump

Don't let this amazing thread die.

As fucked up as this may sound, but I think the gal in the video is just seeking attention. Using your sons death to speak out against a video game (A game that is literally no different from pretty much every other historical shooter AND made by our own special forces unit) is just plain sick. If I gotten killed, the last thing I want my parents to do in my memory, is to go out and ban every war game that makes you the "bad guy." Second, the people who join and myself, made the decision to join, it's not the parent's, it's ours. We all know the risks (unless you're an idiot...) and the parents, wives & husbands should know all the risks too.
In the end, I think she's an idiot and needs to move on. Sorry.
All in all, I'm sorry the lady lost her child...But mourn in your family, don't fuckin bring it down on the world and make yourself look like an ass.

As for this long winded arugment and judging off of what Bison has said earlier....
Miovla does make a good point, like I said earlier, our decision to fight. It's fine to mourn your loss, but don't bring it to everyone...You're seriously not the only one who's lost friends, kids, husbands, etc. Attacking a video game isn't going to do anything except, obviously, piss people off.
VOL - His OPINION. Like it or not, he's entitled to it, twisting it won't help you win an arugment, grow up bud.

I respect anyone that joins the military, police or firefighters. They have the balls and know what they're getting into and I would shit my pants if anyone ever shot a gun at me or if I was ever in a building in flames.

... It's really very simple. The family of a soldier killed has every right to complain, bitch scream and otherwise carry on. The family is still (usually) civillian, thus such rights are guaranteed.

... The soldier who enlisted has forfeit all similar rights when he/she joined and has no foundation for complaint. Of course if he or she is dead no complaints will be coming, but all rights to bitch and moan over losing arms/legs/vision/hearing... are gone once the recruit gets off the bus in bootcamp.

... And a soldier's personal politics are completely irrelevant (little side note). As unpopular as Obama is with military men and women, they must be ready to charge and to fight at his command, period.

... I agree that a draft would be a different situation entirely.

(military family here, since 1864, every branch but the Coast Guard).

DirtyDishSoap wrote:As fucked up as this may sound, but I think the gal in the video is just seeking attention. Using your sons death to speak out against a video game (A game that is literally no different from pretty much every other historical shooter AND made by our own special forces unit) is just plain sick. If I gotten killed, the last thing I want my parents to do in my memory, is to go out and ban every war game that makes you the "bad guy." Second, the people who join and myself, made the decision to join, it's not the parent's, it's ours. We all know the risks (unless you're an idiot...) and the parents, wives & husbands should know all the risks too.
In the end, I think she's an idiot and needs to move on. Sorry.
All in all, I'm sorry the lady lost her child...But mourn in your family, don't fuckin bring it down on the world and make yourself look like an ass.

As for this long winded arugment and judging off of what Bison has said earlier....
Miovla does make a good point, like I said earlier, our decision to fight. It's fine to mourn your loss, but don't bring it to everyone...You're seriously not the only one who's lost friends, kids, husbands, etc. Attacking a video game isn't going to do anything except, obviously, piss people off.
VOL - His OPINION. Like it or not, he's entitled to it, twisting it won't help you win an arugment, grow up bud.

Excellent post there troop.


Honibaz

b.k. barunt wrote:

DirtyDishSoap wrote:As fucked up as this may sound, but I think the gal in the video is just seeking attention. Using your sons death to speak out against a video game (A game that is literally no different from pretty much every other historical shooter AND made by our own special forces unit) is just plain sick. If I gotten killed, the last thing I want my parents to do in my memory, is to go out and ban every war game that makes you the "bad guy." Second, the people who join and myself, made the decision to join, it's not the parent's, it's ours. We all know the risks (unless you're an idiot...) and the parents, wives & husbands should know all the risks too.
In the end, I think she's an idiot and needs to move on. Sorry.
All in all, I'm sorry the lady lost her child...But mourn in your family, don't fuckin bring it down on the world and make yourself look like an ass.

As for this long winded arugment and judging off of what Bison has said earlier....
Miovla does make a good point, like I said earlier, our decision to fight. It's fine to mourn your loss, but don't bring it to everyone...You're seriously not the only one who's lost friends, kids, husbands, etc. Attacking a video game isn't going to do anything except, obviously, piss people off.
VOL - His OPINION. Like it or not, he's entitled to it, twisting it won't help you win an arugment, grow up bud.

Excellent post there troop.


Honibaz

seconded.

I have finally gotten around to watch the clip. The woman hasn't actually got much to say, she makes no coherent argument, her only discernible point is that "it's disrespectful". Well, so what? We knew that already. I'm sorry for her loss and everything, but other than to evoke emotions in the viewer I don't see why she was even on the show.

MeDeFe wrote:I have finally gotten around to watch the clip. The woman hasn't actually got much to say, she makes no coherent argument, her only discernible point is that "it's disrespectful". Well, so what? We knew that already. I'm sorry for her loss and everything, but other than to evoke emotions in the viewer I don't see why she was even on the show.

At the end she made the point that the war is not a game to the people that are suffering. I have to agree with her (even as I'm sure the game is quite fun). I would have a hard time believing that if vid games were around in WWII we'd be doing this. I think too many Americans are clearly too comfortable and cannot respect the fact that people are dying every day in this war.

ViperOverLord wrote:At the end she made the point that the war is not a game to the people that are suffering. I have to agree with her (even as I'm sure the game is quite fun).

I consider that part of "it's disrespectful".

I would have a hard time believing that if vid games were around in WWII we'd be doing this.

Maybe not, but respect has nothing to with whether it's legal to do it or not. EA is breaking no law I know of. They're not even causing undue emotional suffering imo.

I think too many Americans are clearly too comfortable and cannot respect the fact that people are dying every day in this war.

Here we go again, what does respect even have to do with it? You're free to write essays about the lack of it in modern society and how things were better when your grandfather was young and how kids respected their elders if you want, go crazy, noone will stop you.
But what does it matter to the topic at hand? Nothing. You may argue the game is disrespectful and in bad taste as much as you want, but in the end it's irrelevant.

ViperOverLord wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:I have finally gotten around to watch the clip. The woman hasn't actually got much to say, she makes no coherent argument, her only discernible point is that "it's disrespectful". Well, so what? We knew that already. I'm sorry for her loss and everything, but other than to evoke emotions in the viewer I don't see why she was even on the show.

At the end she made the point that the war is not a game to the people that are suffering. I have to agree with her (even as I'm sure the game is quite fun). I would have a hard time believing that if vid games were around in WWII we'd be doing this. I think too many Americans are clearly too comfortable and cannot respect the fact that people are dying every day in this war.

I was actually aware that the war wasn't a game before she had mentioned it. Perhaps some people didn't know this though, so it's a good thing she pointed it out.

I agree with DDS. Some people will go to extreme lengths to get attention, reminds of that bitch, piece of shit ex-wife of mine.