Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[joecoolfrog]

As everybody is working on hunches alone I am happy to stick with my particular theory;

Given that God is omnipotent it would make sense that he was a fun loving sort of chap ( I mean if you had the option would you be a miserable old sod ) much taken with humour and not averse to the odd practical joke. With this in mind I reckon that heaven is reserved for those with a similar personality to himself whilst hell is the booby prize for the dour,holier than thou arse lickers who he secretly despises...see you on cloud 9 guys bring a bottle !

[Gregrios]

On the off chance that you guys arn't just being patronizing and really want to know, I'll explain.

Free will is a filtering tool for determining the sincere from the insincere for acceptance into Heaven.

If God proved himself everyone would choose Heaven.
Therefore making it impossible to seperate the sincere from the insincere.

Beleiving in God on pure faith can only be posessed by the sincere.

....but choosing God out of proof is a decision made by the mind and not by faith.

The problem with proving himself to the world and letting everyone into Heaven is that by doing so he would be letting the insincere enter the kingdom of Heaven and letting all hell break loose within Heaven itself.

Let me put it to you this way:

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

I don't think I can explain it much better than this.

[jonesthecurl]

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

The second one - I've heard all my best friends stories over and over...

[Backglass]

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

So one of your friends is magical & invisible?

[Gregrios]

In your attempt to discredit me, you've succeeded only in discrediting yourself.

[Backglass]

In your attempt to discredit me, you've succeeded only in discrediting yourself.

You have proclaimed your unwavering belief in fairy tales. There is no need to discredit you.

[Gregrios]

On the off chance that you guys arn't just being patronizing and really want to know, I'll explain.

Free will is a filtering tool for determining the sincere from the insincere for acceptance into Heaven.

If God proved himself everyone would choose Heaven.
Therefore making it impossible to seperate the sincere from the insincere.

Beleiving in God on pure faith can only be posessed by the sincere.

....but choosing God out of proof is a decision made by the mind and not by faith.

The problem with proving himself to the world and letting everyone into Heaven is that by doing so he would be letting the insincere enter the kingdom of Heaven and letting all hell break loose within Heaven itself.

Let me put it to you this way:

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

I don't think I can explain it much better than this.

A worthy bump.

[Backglass]

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

A worthy bump.

So one of your friends is magical & invisible?

[joecoolfrog]

So this bit about free will, where do I find it in the bible ?

[MeDeFe]

On the off chance that you guys arn't just being patronizing and really want to know, I'll explain.

Free will is a filtering tool for determining the sincere from the insincere for acceptance into Heaven.

If God proved himself everyone would choose Heaven.
Therefore making it impossible to seperate the sincere from the insincere.

Beleiving in God on pure faith can only be posessed by the sincere.

....but choosing God out of proof is a decision made by the mind and not by faith.

The problem with proving himself to the world and letting everyone into Heaven is that by doing so he would be letting the insincere enter the kingdom of Heaven and letting all hell break loose within Heaven itself.

Let me put it to you this way:

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

I don't think I can explain it much better than this.

ok, so as you see it, faith is necessary for going to heaven, accepting god and obeying his commands is not enough. (I'm not going into the whole love-thing just yet, I know there's that as well)

To be almost brutally honest, I don't even know what this faith is really supposed to be. To me it looks like something along the lines of "My parents have told me god exists and they would never lie to me, everyone at the church has told me god exists and they should know what they're talking about, everyone I know believes in god. God has to exist, why else would everyone believe in him?" If you were to substitute 'Australia' for 'god', and 'geography class' for 'church' it wouldn't sound bad at all, but god is so improbable judging from what we can observe and the stories about him are so full of contradictions that I think it's something of a miracle that people believe in god at all.

Does that make me insincere? I don't see how, it just makes me a person who doesn't accept everything I'm told without questioning it. (And supposedly god is responsible for me being that way as well) For all you know everyone would be sincere if god were to prove his existence. Right now this distinction between 'sincere' and 'insincere' seems to be one of "believe what you're told about god without questioning it" and "ask inconvenient questions about what you're told about god". And btw, isn't god supposedly omniscient? Wouldn't he be able to tell whether a person is sincere or not anyway?

And wouldn't it be a short-term problem of people who previously did not believe? I mean, one generation later the proof will be there for everyone to evaluate from birth onwards. They could hardly be accused of being turncoats. And if it's such a big problem, well, just reincarnate everyone who wasn't already a believer at the time of the Proof and give them a fair chance or something.


As for your example, how about letting both of them in? Maybe cut down a little on the rations and draw lots about who gets to sleep on the couch and it'll work.

[Backglass]

To be almost brutally honest, I don't even know what this faith is really supposed to be. To me it looks like something along the lines of "My parents have told me god exists and they would never lie to me, everyone at the church has told me god exists and they should know what they're talking about, everyone I know believes in god. God has to exist, why else would everyone believe in him?" If you were to substitute 'Australia' for 'god', and 'geography class' for 'church' it wouldn't sound bad at all, but god is so improbable judging from what we can observe and the stories about him are so full of contradictions that I think it's something of a miracle that people believe in god at all.

Does that make me insincere? I don't see how, it just makes me a person who doesn't accept everything I'm told without questioning it. (And supposedly god is responsible for me being that way as well) For all you know everyone would be sincere if god were to prove his existence. Right now this distinction between 'sincere' and 'insincere' seems to be one of "believe what you're told about god without questioning it" and "ask inconvenient questions about what you're told about god". And btw, isn't god supposedly omniscient? Wouldn't he be able to tell whether a person is sincere or not anyway?

Therein lies the rub. The god these people think exists supposedly wants everyone to believe in him, love him and follow him, yet he/she/it is either unwilling or unable to show himself to the world, thereby instantly getting 100% buy-in. It's this whole "trickery" aspect that makes the house of cards fall apart. "You have to want it. I could show up and you would believe instantly, but that would be too easy."

If magical gods existed, they would show up, rule, and we would ALL serve them. Bam! Instant christian planet. Isn't that the goal after all? To "save" everyone? Why fiddle-fuck around? You can save everyone instantly! Appear, announce yourself, instant worship from everyone..."Mission Accomplished". This thing is supposedly all-powerful, all-knowing...right? Yet, it can only communicate through warm-fuzzy "ghostly feelings" and the like? C'mon.

I'm sorry but gods don't hide in the bushes and show up occasionally in a grilled cheese sandwich.

[Gregrios]

Everyone's welcome to their own opinion.

[MeDeFe]

Everyone's welcome to their own opinion.

Would you care to answer my post as well?

[jonesthecurl]

Gregrios has three (maybe four) resorts when in difficulty:
(i) You are entitled to your opinion (then shuts up)
(ii)Wow you're getting desperate (then shuts up)
(iii)Forgets you asked the question (e.g. Does the earth orbit the sun or vice-versa)
(iv)added to or substitued for one of the above,

[jonesthecurl]

by the way gregrios, I'm sure that you discovered before I just did that the max smilies per post is 40...

[Juan_Bottom]

by the way gregrios, I'm sure that you discovered before I just did that the max smilies per post is 40...

[Neoteny]

by the way gregrios, I'm sure that you discovered before I just did that the max smilies per post is 40...

Heh. That's rather informative.

[mastershake]

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Neoteny]

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BECAUSE THAT'S BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[muy_thaiguy]

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BECAUSE THAT'S BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!OMGBBQ!!!

[Neoteny]

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BECAUSE THAT'S BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!OMGBBQ!!!

BIGOT!!!

[muy_thaiguy]

WHY CANT WE ALL GET ALONGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BECAUSE THAT'S BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I DISAGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!OMGBBQ!!!

BIGOT!!!

RACIST!!!!

[heavycola]

On the off chance that you guys arn't just being patronizing and really want to know, I'll explain.

Free will is a filtering tool for determining the sincere from the insincere for acceptance into Heaven.

If God proved himself everyone would choose Heaven.
Therefore making it impossible to seperate the sincere from the insincere.

Beleiving in God on pure faith can only be posessed by the sincere.

....but choosing God out of proof is a decision made by the mind and not by faith.

The problem with proving himself to the world and letting everyone into Heaven is that by doing so he would be letting the insincere enter the kingdom of Heaven and letting all hell break loose within Heaven itself.

Let me put it to you this way:

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

I don't think I can explain it much better than this.

A worthy bump.

God is supposed to be omniscient. He would know if the other dude was being insincere.

Also, I'm guessing that his wish to get into a nuclear bunker is probably quite sincere, and I'm no skydaddy.

Look - think abotu what you said. God revealing himself to the world has nothing to do with his powers to detect insincerity.

[Gregrios]

On the off chance that you guys arn't just being patronizing and really want to know, I'll explain.

Free will is a filtering tool for determining the sincere from the insincere for acceptance into Heaven.

If God proved himself everyone would choose Heaven.
Therefore making it impossible to seperate the sincere from the insincere.

Beleiving in God on pure faith can only be posessed by the sincere.

....but choosing God out of proof is a decision made by the mind and not by faith.

The problem with proving himself to the world and letting everyone into Heaven is that by doing so he would be letting the insincere enter the kingdom of Heaven and letting all hell break loose within Heaven itself.

Let me put it to you this way:

A nuke has went off and you have an underground room where you have the essentials for living. You can choose one of two people to come in and live with you. One person is your best friend who you've known and trusted for your whole life while the other person is someone telling you all the things you want to hear but you have no idea what his true intentions are. Who are you going to choose?

I don't think I can explain it much better than this.

A worthy bump.

God is supposed to be omniscient. He would know if the other dude was being insincere.

Also, I'm guessing that his wish to get into a nuclear bunker is probably quite sincere, and I'm no skydaddy.

Look - think abotu what you said. God revealing himself to the world has nothing to do with his powers to detect insincerity.

Have you ever heard of the covenant?

[heavycola]

if you're asking whether i've seen raiders of the lost ark then yes, i have.

My question to you is: why would god revealing himself hinder his ability to detect insincerity? What have they got to do with each other?