INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[Metsfanmax]

Vote: jfm10
Having mulled it over, and in light of the answers I received, I think we do need the full claim from jfm10.

What?! The only responses you received were dakky saying "this looks scummy" and then TX saying "no actually it says nothing about alignment." How on earth did that cause you to change your mind?

[Pikanchion]

Vote: jfm10
Having mulled it over, and in light of the answers I received, I think we do need the full claim from jfm10.

What?! The only responses you received were dakky saying "this looks scummy" and then TX saying "no actually it says nothing about alignment." How on earth did that cause you to change your mind?

Could somebody in DBD tell me whether Ragian was scum or town in each of the three games jfm10 has previously played? This post and the initial suspicion could perhaps be viewed differently depending on the answer. Additionally, was Ragian largely responsible through either night actions or day discussion in jfm10's demise in these games? Even with favourable answers it would be hard to see jfm10's vote as not being opportunistic bandwagoning (something later admitted even), but non-DBD players are certainly at a disadvantage in judging this situation.

I am torn between voting for chapcrap, taking the poorly justified OMGUS and the potential role fishing in aggregrate, or voting jfm10 to push for clarification on the claim. Presently, what I really want is the answers to my questions from DBD members.

In previous two games, Rage was Scum in one and Town in the other.
But to better answer the question, Rage is very good at summarising previous posts and giving his opinion. This means that it can easily sway simple town folk (like me)who are utterly clueless and fairly new at maffia

no, I have not been scum in all of the DBD games, only one. Which scum won, incidentally.

[Ragian]

If you are for a D1 lynch in this case, then the only thing gained by pointing out that you might not be for it (where? in some alternate universe?) is to add confusion. Either you're waffling on whether we should have a D1 lynch, or you're not.

Not really. You don't know what a D1 lynch will yield as you don't know the future. You don't know what N1 will yield of results. You still don't know the future. I'm merely referring to the fact that the consequences of a D1 no lynch might be preferably to a D1 lynch when you have a lot of power roles.

This is a non sequitur. We're talking about what we should do now based on the information we have now. So my question is simple: are you in favor of a D1 lynch today or not? If you are, why are you pointing out that you might have made another decision? Is it so that you can protect yourself if we mislynch?

If that helps you I'm sad to learn that you never ponder possible results of any alternative approach. If you don't know whether or not I prefer a D1 lynch, you're blatantly ignoring what I'm saying and you have no recollection of playing with me ever before. IGMEOY.

[Metsfanmax]

Vote: jfm10
Having mulled it over, and in light of the answers I received, I think we do need the full claim from jfm10.

What?! The only responses you received were dakky saying "this looks scummy" and then TX saying "no actually it says nothing about alignment." How on earth did that cause you to change your mind?

Could somebody in DBD tell me whether Ragian was scum or town in each of the three games jfm10 has previously played? This post and the initial suspicion could perhaps be viewed differently depending on the answer. Additionally, was Ragian largely responsible through either night actions or day discussion in jfm10's demise in these games? Even with favourable answers it would be hard to see jfm10's vote as not being opportunistic bandwagoning (something later admitted even), but non-DBD players are certainly at a disadvantage in judging this situation.

I am torn between voting for chapcrap, taking the poorly justified OMGUS and the potential role fishing in aggregrate, or voting jfm10 to push for clarification on the claim. Presently, what I really want is the answers to my questions from DBD members.

In previous two games, Rage was Scum in one and Town in the other.
But to better answer the question, Rage is very good at summarising previous posts and giving his opinion. This means that it can easily sway simple town folk (like me)who are utterly clueless and fairly new at maffia

no, I have not been scum in all of the DBD games, only one. Which scum won, incidentally.

OK. Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood what you were referring to. Still, I think you're metagaming too hard here. I'm fine with it in small doses as I expressed before, but I think it's possible to read too much from previous games and try to fit that onto the pattern of this game. General things like "what does dakky tend to do on D1?" are OK. What you're doing... I'm not sure.

If that helps you I'm sad to learn that you never ponder possible results of any alternative approach. If you don't know whether or not I prefer a D1 lynch, you're blatantly ignoring what I'm saying and you have no recollection of playing with me ever before. IGMEOY.

Of course I consider possible results of alternative approaches. But I only publicly bring up those alternative approaches if I'm seriously advocating that we consider them. If I thought that there was merit in not doing a D1 lynch today, and I was genuinely unsure about whether to do it or not, I might float a suggestion about it, and solicit feedback. I wouldn't randomly float the idea just to put it out there that there's another way one could think about it. Unless I was scum and actively trying to be divisive. So again I ask you, what was the value in pointing out, and what is the value in continuing to defend it? If you're just going to respond to my line of inquiry by saying "well obviously I didn't mean it that seriously, you should know what I really meant"... I hope it's not hard to see why I find that suspicious.

[Pikanchion]

OK. Thanks for the clarification, I misunderstood what you were referring to. Still, I think you're metagaming too hard here. I'm fine with it in small doses as I expressed before, but I think it's possible to read too much from previous games and try to fit that onto the pattern of this game. General things like "what does dakky tend to do on D1?" are OK. What you're doing... I'm not sure.

My questions were merely to ascertain if jfm10 could plausibly be metagaming, not to engage particularly in metagaming myself. If Ragian were scum in all of those previous games then jfm10's "I find him scummy all the time" would be an entirely different statement. Besides, if you want to complain about potentially dubious metagaming then where was your reaction to ZaBeast's this guy is playing like somebody else did one time and they were scum on that occasion...

[Tobikera]

OK, I've read and re-read everything again. A lot of it is much to do about nothing, as usual in mafia games. I'm not as experienced as most of you, and am eternally suspicious of Pershy simply because his posts are so mellow. He's good with soothing words, and rarely raises a hackle, even when verbally attacked. Ragian is more straightforward, and he's either lying with convincing input or being a helpful townie, and I can never tell which. The other DBD players I've only played against 2-3 times, and have no insight. For the non-DBD players here, I can see a higher level of sophistication and experience in the game, for the most part, which makes me wonder what will be made out of this post.

No one really responded with any interest to my previous posts, although I was misquoted once. This made me a bit hesitant to post more than I have. Why waste the effort? I think everyone needs to go back an re-read the initial scene. I think, and correct me if I am wrong, it is important to see that the freshwater critters (fish, etc.) that were washed into the lagoon and onto the reef are the prey for dark, shadowy forces coming from the sea. Symbolically, that implies that these freshwater beasts are most likely town, and the dark, shadowy beasts are most likely mafia scum. I suspect, when this is all over, that mafia scum are represented by top marine (saltwater) carnivores. This is a tokle game, so it could be that the initial scene is a massive misdirection ploy, and I'm sadly misled. But, if I am right, then this is an initial template for solving the game and defeating the mafia. Of course, if pressed by lynch votes, the mafia scum aren't going to admit to being a hammerhead shark, or squid, or even a seal or penguin, all of whom are carnivorous (esp. on fish). But, in an effort to avoid suspicion, if pressed, one of them might choose a freshwater fish that someone else already has as an identity, Then we can act. So, let's begin by agreeing on someone to press to L-2.

My choice is Darin44, because of his lack of particpation. Let's bring him to L-2 and have the mod(s) prod a response. That will provide more information than y'all flapping your jaws for another 10 pages.

VOTE DARIN44

P.S. The once curious thing in the initial scenario was the demise of the sailfish. A sailfish, which you never find around a reef (it's an open ocean feeder on the surface and mid-depths; good initial summary of sailfish here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish) is a carnivore, but certainly not the ominous shadowy beasts portrayed by a killer whale, or a giant squid, or a white shark, i.e., not a top carnivore. I still don't have my head around that tidbit, other than to emphasize that the reef is a dangerous place to be for all potential prey, freshwater or saltwater.

[dakky21]

@Tobikera ... I agree we should get someone to L-2 but your reason sucks. Really. Lynch the inactive? what's the point in that? You don't know his stance and you don't know what he is thinking... you mean getting him to L-2 will make him speak? I don't think so... and you said your reason is "lack of participation"... Darin44 is simply inactive or forgot about this game. He should be replaced, not lynched. (or lynched but for a proper reason)

Anyway, you wrote a lot but didn't say anything as well, just your guess about game setup, saltwater, freshwater, whatever... but you did bring up sharks, squids, seals and penguins who are carnivores... it makes me think which one of these are you.

[chapcrap]

@Tobikera ... I agree we should get someone to L-2 but your reason sucks. Really. Lynch the inactive? what's the point in that? You don't know his stance and you don't know what he is thinking... you mean getting him to L-2 will make him speak? I don't think so... and you said your reason is "lack of participation"... Darin44 is simply inactive or forgot about this game. He should be replaced, not lynched. (or lynched but for a proper reason)

Anyway, you wrote a lot but didn't say anything as well, just your guess about game setup, saltwater, freshwater, whatever... but you did bring up sharks, squids, seals and penguins who are carnivores... it makes me think which one of these are you.

Forcing someone to be active or lynched is typical on Day 1 IIRC...

The rest of Tobi's post is pretty flawed. Sailfish are saltwater carnivores, so if saltwater carnivores are scum, then what are you talking about?

[Tobikera]

@dakky21
It's been my experience in two clans who play mafia seriously (pershy and Ragian can back me up here), that bringing someone to L-2 usually makes them talk. They are forced to say something to avoid being lynched for no response, which is usually scummy. Why not choose someone who is inactive, for whatever reason. We need more info, and Darin44 seems like he's keeping his head down. It's better reasoning than any of the imaginary slips and faux pas I see y'all talking about.

@chapcrap
Don't give me this Day 1 crap. Day 1 has already lasted over 9 days...way too long. Time to shit or get off the pot and get some real info, not idle speculation. Not sure you can read, chapcrap, a real handicap here. I said sailfish were carnivores, but they are not top carnivores, more like primary consumers in the fish world of things. Top carnivores will be like hammerhead sharks, giant squid, killer whales, etc. Any bets that those will be the identities of the mafia players at the end of the game?

[chapcrap]

@chapcrap
Don't give me this Day 1 crap. Day 1 has already lasted over 9 days...way too long. Time to shit or get off the pot and get some real info, not idle speculation.

I basically agreed with the L-2 strategy...

[Darin44]

I am also feeling like darin is flying under the radar with his lack of activity. He's not the only one not contributing much, but both posts he made are unhelpful at best, and I especially don't like the one where he says he'd be fine with a flavour claim even when most of town had said it was a bad idea at that point.
@TX days end when a deadline is reached (imposed if the day drags on or discussion slows down. It is usually given a few days in advance) or when someone is lynched (or a no-lynch vote is reached)

I only agreed to a flavour claim because I need to post and did know what to say

[Darin44]

My choice is Darin44, because of his lack of particpation. Let's bring him to L-2 and have the mod(s) prod a response. That will provide more information than y'all flapping your jaws for another 10 pages.

VOTE DARIN44

You done is in one other game you we play. and I said the don't talk much and would say something later
you gave a couple day to claim before the couple day was over I was lynch. now you are tring to do it again. why because I'm not good with word? FOS

[Skoffin]

Here, I would have unvoted skoffin, but she hasn't said anything yet... I like Pika, though. Is that weird?

A fair few people are missing.

Other than voting JM and giving my reasons why, which no one has reacted to? How dare you sir.


This game would go a lot more quickly if you would all just accept that I am right in all things and lynch jm.

[Ragian]

Of course I consider possible results of alternative approaches. But I only publicly bring up those alternative approaches if I'm seriously advocating that we consider them. If I thought that there was merit in not doing a D1 lynch today, and I was genuinely unsure about whether to do it or not, I might float a suggestion about it, and solicit feedback. I wouldn't randomly float the idea just to put it out there that there's another way one could think about it. Unless I was scum and actively trying to be divisive. So again I ask you, what was the value in pointing out, and what is the value in continuing to defend it? If you're just going to respond to my line of inquiry by saying "well obviously I didn't mean it that seriously, you should know what I really meant"... I hope it's not hard to see why I find that suspicious.

I guess that's just your way against my way. I speak what's on my mind when I'm town, I don't hold anything back unless I think it's counterproductive. Stating that an alternative approach might yield a better result (i.e. I can understand if others want to go that way), I don't find either divisive, misleading, or whatever you want to call it. I stated multiple times that I am for a D1 lynch. If you find my way suspicious, you can side with BuJ who always thinks I'm suspicious.

@Tobi, Pershy never raises a hackle?

@Tobikera ... I agree we should get someone to L-2 but your reason sucks. Really. Lynch the inactive? what's the point in that? You don't know his stance and you don't know what he is thinking... you mean getting him to L-2 will make him speak? I don't think so... and you said your reason is "lack of participation"... Darin44 is simply inactive or forgot about this game. He should be replaced, not lynched. (or lynched but for a proper reason)

Tobi never suggested lynching Darin. He suggested bringing him to L-2. Major difference.

unvote skoffin

Stop yelling at me!

@Darin, what would you propose that we do?

[TX AG 90]

Going to need some help again - What is L-2?

[Pikanchion]

L stands for Lynch, -2 refers to how many votes are required to lynch somebody. So currently, with nine votes needed to secure a lynch, it means for a player to have seven votes against them.

[TX AG 90]

I'm not sure how figuring out the narrative will help us finger the Scum, but I have some alternate theories as to what the surface shadows are:

At first I thought this

then others start appearing from the surface during the early morning sunrise.

may mean surfers.

However, when combined with this

Their tentacles pierce the reef and entice the hungry, but are easily discovered by the wise reef inhabitant.

, it could mean fishing kayaks or fishing boats.

Tentacles could really be fishing lines with bait to "entice the hungry".

Also, the shadows are not to blame for the dead swordfish - pollution?

Maybe humans are involved as well as water creatures.

[TX AG 90]

L stands for Lynch, -2 refers to how many votes are required to lynch somebody. So currently, with nine votes needed to secure a lynch, it means for a player to have seven votes against them.

so, the purpose is to spur someone to action, either they convince us of their innocence or bury themselves in scuminess?

[Ragian]

The agreed upon convention is that if you're at L-2, you reveal your role. If you don't, you will be pegged as anti-town and most likely lynched for anti-town behaviour.

[TX AG 90]

The agreed upon convention is that if you're at L-2, you reveal your role. If you don't, you will be pegged as anti-town and most likely lynched for anti-town behaviour.

Makes sense

[Pikanchion]

Yeah, holding somebody at that point is a statement of intent by town: "claim or we'll lynch you". Casting the final or even the penultimate vote before the lynchee has a chance to claim is also scummy. If the person lynched is then revealed to have been a town role, especially a relatively powerful common one like Doctor or Cop, then the person casting the final vote (commonly referred to as the hammer) denied the chance for them to claim that role, which in most cases would save them from the lynch or confirm several other players as town post-lynch.

[Ragian]

It's standard practice D1 to get someone at L-2 after the joke vote phase. No town-sided role (barring a few exceptions) knows who is town and who is scum. Only scum know who they are and thus who is town-sided. I.e. town has no information to go on from D1. Getting someone to claim (more often than not whoever is forced to claim is picked randomly or, at best, with a wafer thin justification) provides information that we can work on.

FP'ed by Pika.

[Razorvich]

Day 1 will end CC Time: 2019-03-10 01:59:59 at the latest, unless:

• There is a lynch prior to the deadline

IF someone is voted at L2 or less, 48 Hours will then be added to the deadline

The funky end time fits with my work schedule to ensure a smooth night scene transition

[Tobikera]

I basically agreed with the L-2 strategy...

Apologies you are correct. Didn't understand that IIRC at the end of your sentence and thought you were being negative. Plus, I should never respond after just dozing off. Alas, it happens a lot at my age.

[Tobikera]

My choice is Darin44, because of his lack of particpation. Let's bring him to L-2 and have the mod(s) prod a response. That will provide more information than y'all flapping your jaws for another 10 pages.

VOTE DARIN44

You done is in one other game you we play. and I said the don't talk much and would say something later
you gave a couple day to claim before the couple day was over I was lynch. now you are tring to do it again. why because I'm not good with word? FOS

Not at all. Admittedly, my vote against you was based on specious logic. I just wanted to get everyone to focus on one person, get them to L-2, and get some more info. Nothing personal. jfm10 seems to be everyone's player of choice, which I am unsure about, but to maintain my actual intent I will join that wagon.

UNVOTE
VOTE jfm10