Conquer Club

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 1:15 am**

Sorry, Catholics don't believe in a literal interpretation of the bible.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:13 am**

mpjh wrote:Sorry, Catholics don't believe in a literal interpretation of the bible.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:40 am**

PopeBenXVI wrote:Where does the Bible have the list of "the big stuff" and then the list of the other stuff it says you can decide for yourself on? Please cite the Book and chapter?

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

And well, I enjoyed a nice pork dinner last Sunday ... and my kids and husband generally don't wear tassles on their clothes.

The Catholic Church teaches Creationism. That teaching originated in the Catholic Church as has been taught sinse the begining. To make a blank statement saying the Catholic Church teaches Evolution is not a fair statement to make without explaining it.

It is in this Dioscese, and per the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, it is.

That said, I believe your misunderstanding is of what is being taught as "Creationism" nowadays, specifically "Intelligent Design" or (an older term not used as often recently) "Scientific Creationism". This is specifically the idea that the Earth is only about 10,000 years old (exact estimates seem to range from 6000-12000 years old). Currently, most say the dinosaurs were killed off by Noah's flood (some variation there), that the grand Canyon was created by the Flood, etc. (Link to a prominant institute website: http://www.icr.org)

Most people would take that statement as believing we evolved from apes which is not at all Catholic teaching and is in fact heretical.

Funny, but it is absolutely not what Science teaches either, though it is put forward as being Evolutionary teachings by a good many who wish to put forward the Creationist agenda.

Evolution, as it is truly taught, is NOT heretical to Roman Catholic Church teachings .. at all. What IS heretical is to assert that this all occured without God or to assert that these ape-like creatures that almost certain predecessed us biologically were only differant from humans in physiological form. Now, there is some variation here within Christianity, but most assert that the Creation of man in Genesis refers to God melding that form, giving us souls and conscience. That absolutely required God. Again, there is variation on when and how Christians see this. The key is that all Christians (and Jews and Moslems, incidentally) believe that God did it. God created us. The only debate is over exactly how it happened.

We can believe in physical evolutions with our bodies changing but we as humans always have been so and always had the knowledge of God and eternal soul which no animals have. No Catholic is obligated to believe the world is any particular age as the Church has not nor does it feel it needs to officially define that for or as the deposit of Faith.

EDIT: I reread what you wrote and this is fully the position of those Christians who accept Evolution. That is, Evolution talks about the physical biology. The Bible talks about much more. What ever existed prior to Adam was not human. Basically, this is what even atheistic Evolutionists assert ... its just they they stop there and assert that everything .. consciousness, etc all came through purely natural, "random" factors (not as in dice, but as in just too many variables for human beings to assess). HOWEVER, this is NOT the theory taught under Intelligent Design or "Creationism". Further, Creationists deny that this broader position, as I believe, as I understand you to be describing it, even exists

True, technically. But the technical truth is that no scientist will assert this either, except as a matter of theory.

The issue is not whether there is absolute proof of Evolution (NO ONE with sense will say it is 100% sure, though parts of the theory, such as that things do change over time, that natural selection occurs, are).

As a scientist AND a Christian, I will go further and say t hat no one really has a problem with faithful individuals who simply believe the Earth was made in 6 days, no question.... and that science will eventually be proven completely false (or that God made the world to look as if it were old). That is religion and people are free to believe as they wish.

The issue is whether my son and everyone else's children must be taught that there is scientific evidence supporting the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old, that the evidence is in any way equal to that for Evolution and the ancient earth theories. As a CHRISTIAN, I take great affront at those who asser that all Christians must believe this to be true... or they are not reading the Bible (and yes, this is what Creationists assert).

Again, I don't dispute your understanding of Roman Catholic Doctrine. I do dispute some details of how you seem to understand Evolution, and primarily, I dispute your understanding of what is put forward now as Creationism.

Creationism, as put forward by the Institute for Creation Research and others is just plain not true, is actually based upon ignoring data and flat out lies (such as the assertion that Transition fossils simply don't exist, etc.). The reason so many can believe these things are true is plain LACK of education. That in no way is truly Biblical or supportive of Christ's teachings.

Their is much false and partial information here being said about official Catholic teaching from many people who I am sure do not have a Catechism of the Catholic Church in their hand let alone a book self full of encyclicals or a Masters Degree in Catholic Theology. I have all the above. Many online soarces are way off as well. Unless you can point to specific declaration of faith made by the Magisterium it is not official Catholic Teaching. Telling me what your Protestant friend told you Catholics believe or what you remember some heretical Sister teaching you in Catholic school back in the 70's does not count as official Catholic Doctrine.

I am not claiming to be an expert in Roman Catholic doctrine. I am most definitely very much looking into this who issue of Creationism, because it is affecting my son, has affected my career and has impacted decisions that our past administration made as public policy.

I urge everyone to look into this issue because it IS affecting our lives, whether you realize it or not.

When I have cited specifics of Roman Catholic Doctrine, however, I have been specific as to my source. I fully understand that there is variation within the church, even within the Vatican.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:45 pm**

So many posts to respond to so little time.

The Catholic Church has Doctrine, Dogma, Sacred Tradition and plain writtings and statments made by all levels of those in the church. Without writting my own encyclical on all this, (which would be way too long and none of you would want to read the whole thing anyway) I will keep it short and sweet.

I am only saying that in any faith you can quote whoever you want that said whatever but that is completly different in the Catholic Church regarding Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition. Even the Pope can say "yeah, I think the world can be 150,000 years old" but that is not Catholic teaching. The Pope can make an official declaraion on faith and morals from the seat of Peter. That would be Catholic Teaching. This is different then a Priest saying "I don't think Creationism fits into a catigory of science" That is his opinion, and in my opinion not correct.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:14 pm**

PopeBenXVI wrote:So many posts to respond to so little time.

The Catholic Church has Doctrine, Dogma, Sacred Tradition and plain writtings and statments made by all levels of those in the church. Without writting my own encyclical on all this, (which would be way too long and none of you would want to read the whole thing anyway) I will keep it short and sweet.

I am only saying that in any faith you can quote whoever you want that said whatever but that is completly different in the Catholic Church regarding Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition. Even the Pope can say "yeah, I think the world can be 150,000 years old" but that is not Catholic teaching. The Pope can make an official declaraion on faith and morals from the seat of Peter. That would be Catholic Teaching. This is different then a Priest saying "I don't think Creationism fits into a catigory of science" That is his opinion, and in my opinion not correct.

I am referring to the standards that are given to Roman Catholic backed schools by the church, however you wish to term it technically.

Also, Evolution was accepted, is definitely not heretical. I have a very hard time believing that this is what you were taught in a Roman Catholic University, but that is another discussion.

As for whether it belongs in science ... there are already threads on that, but there is just no way the Earth can be 6000 (or 12,000 or even 150,000) years old unless all of Geology and almost all of Chemistry, physics, biology, etc are just plain false. It is just not possible. Further, as I stated above, much of what is asserted by groups like the Creation Science Institute is just plain false. For you to believe it is possible means you have not learned much of any of those sciences.... and that is the real problem. Science is not being taught because school boards don't have the money to fight Creationists. So my son does not learn the science he needs because of it. That is just plain wrong!

And yes, if we had the money, we would be sending him to the Catholic school.... which is one reason I am so sure of what I am saying.

Posted: **Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:27 pm**

It is perfectly logical that God created the world appearing aged.
Wrong but not illogical.

Posted: **Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:23 pm**

PopeBenXVI wrote:So many posts to respond to so little time.

The Catholic Church has Doctrine, Dogma, Sacred Tradition and plain writtings and statments made by all levels of those in the church. Without writting my own encyclical on all this, (which would be way too long and none of you would want to read the whole thing anyway) I will keep it short and sweet.

I am only saying that in any faith you can quote whoever you want that said whatever but that is completly different in the Catholic Church regarding Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition. Even the Pope can say "yeah, I think the world can be 150,000 years old" but that is not Catholic teaching. The Pope can make an official declaraion on faith and morals from the seat of Peter. That would be Catholic Teaching. This is different then a Priest saying "I don't think Creationism fits into a catigory of science" That is his opinion, and in my opinion not correct.

It's fine if you believe in Creationism. It's the charge of heresy that I find to be baseless however.

Posted: **Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:26 pm**

PLAYER57832 wrote:
PopeBenXVI wrote:So many posts to respond to so little time.

The Catholic Church has Doctrine, Dogma, Sacred Tradition and plain writtings and statments made by all levels of those in the church. Without writting my own encyclical on all this, (which would be way too long and none of you would want to read the whole thing anyway) I will keep it short and sweet.

I am only saying that in any faith you can quote whoever you want that said whatever but that is completly different in the Catholic Church regarding Doctrine, Dogma, and Sacred Tradition. Even the Pope can say "yeah, I think the world can be 150,000 years old" but that is not Catholic teaching. The Pope can make an official declaraion on faith and morals from the seat of Peter. That would be Catholic Teaching. This is different then a Priest saying "I don't think Creationism fits into a catigory of science" That is his opinion, and in my opinion not correct.

I am referring to the standards that are given to Roman Catholic backed schools by the church, however you wish to term it technically.

Also, Evolution was accepted, is definitely not heretical. I have a very hard time believing that this is what you were taught in a Roman Catholic University, but that is another discussion.

As for whether it belongs in science ... there are already threads on that, but there is just no way the Earth can be 6000 (or 12,000 or even 150,000) years old unless all of Geology and almost all of Chemistry, physics, biology, etc are just plain false. It is just not possible. Further, as I stated above, much of what is asserted by groups like the Creation Science Institute is just plain false. For you to believe it is possible means you have not learned much of any of those sciences.... and that is the real problem. Science is not being taught because school boards don't have the money to fight Creationists. So my son does not learn the science he needs because of it. That is just plain wrong!

And yes, if we had the money, we would be sending him to the Catholic school.... which is one reason I am so sure of what I am saying.

I am not saying evolution is heretical I am saying the evolutionary understanding that we evolved out of the species of Apes is heretical, It's all in definitions and what ones definition is on a specific aspect of evolution and that aspect is the difference in what we are talking about here. I understand that creationism actually has many scientific supporting facts. From a purely scientific standpoint (although I believe in creationism) I think both theories need to be explored not taught.

Science is about discovery and not one teaching when the jury is still out as public institutions teach it now. I also don't really care how old the world is as it does not change the fact in my eyes that it was created by God. How scientifically the Earth came into being through that creation by God I would be interested in but not the age.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:27 pm**

PopeBenXVI wrote:

I am not saying evolution is heretical I am saying the evolutionary understanding that we evolved out of the species of Apes is heretical, It's all in definitions and what ones definition is on a specific aspect of evolution and that aspect is the difference in what we are talking about here.

Sorry, but you are showing that you don't really "get" Evolution. No one but those opposed to Evolution say humans evolved from apes.

I understand that creationism actually has many scientific supporting facts. From a purely scientific standpoint (although I believe in creationism) I think both theories need to be explored not taught.

Except they don't. I am attempting to find the information to which Creationists keep aluding. However, what is posted on the Institute for Creation Research websites and what has been mentioned to date in any converstation I have had regarding this is complete misunderstandings of Evolution, outright incorrect information (such as claims that "transition fossils don't exist" and there is "no such thing as a geological progression", etc.).

Among the most ludicrous assertions is the idea that Noah's flood "mixed up" all the fossils. It just is not possible. HOWEVER, this requires knowing science, and a lot of schools have failed miserably in teaching science.

Science is about discovery and not one teaching when the jury is still out as public institutions teach it now.

Except the "jury" is NOT still out ... it was firmly decided roughly 60 years ago. Notic, I did not say 100 years ago ... it did take time for people to become convinced. Also, technological advances now allow us to confirm many things that were previously only speculation, such as how mutations actually occur, how traits are passed on to progeny, ways to study deep oceans and inside volcanoes, further discoveries of extensive fossile beds in various portions of the world that have yielded entirely new fossils (answering many questions we had earlier).

THAT is the problem... the only way for someone to believe Creationism, as it is put forward by the Creationists on their websites, is if you plain don't know the science. The thing is the science is complex it takes years of study to understand a lot of it, so it is pretty easy for someone to just say "hey here is this theory and I will name a bunch of scholars who support my view"... Many of the people they cite on these websites either don't have backgrounds in the field where they are supposed to be experts, are actually NOT supportive of Creationism at all or are plain fraudulant.

I also don't really care how old the world is as it does not change the fact in my eyes that it was created by God.
This is absolutely true.

I care as a scientist. I care as a parent, because my son's education is being harmed. I care because our country is facing some very difficult decisions and this Creationist agenda fits all too neatly into those who don't want to take the hard steps necessary to ensure a large portion of the world does not starve because of droughts and floods (both and each), etc.

How scientifically the Earth came into being through that creation by God I would be interested in but not the age.

I urge you to actually read a bit about recent Evolutionary theory before you say "it does not make sense" or is "not Biblical".
The following is a Christian website that tackles a lot of these issues. It is not highly scientific ... the science is best found in other websites.
http://www.answersincreation.org/rebutt ... _index.htm

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:36 pm**

Carnifex wrote:It's fine if you believe in Creationism. It's the charge of heresy that I find to be baseless however.

I agree, except when Creationists claim that the science backs them up... that is not religion, it is just plain falsehood.

If Creationists wish to say all science is just wrong, we have all been misled and will find that out soon... I certainly disagree, but if you wish to believe the earth is flat .. there is nothing stopping you.

If you wish to say that the Earth is really young, but was made to look as if it were old ... again, that is a belief that simply cannot be proved true or false.

However, when someone says, as whole groups now do, that there is all sorts of evidence supporting a young earth theory and that this stuff must be taught in our schools... I and just about everyone conducting credible, accepted science OBJECTS, with very good reason ... these ideas have already been proven false!

Further, when Creationists claim, as they do, that Evolution came about purely to disprove Christianity and the only people who can possibly believe it are those who don't understand the Bible or who are simply "listening to what other people say" .. then I will dispute you on religious grounds. I am a Christian. I am a scientist. Both offer truth ... they just do it in differant ways and tackle largely differant questions.

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:33 pm**

[/quote] Sorry, but you are showing that you don't really "get" Evolution. No one but those opposed to Evolution say humans evolved from apes. [/quote]

What? People who promote evolution always say we evolved from Apes?

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:40 pm**

PopeBenXVI wrote:

Sorry, but you are showing that you don't really "get" Evolution. No one but those opposed to Evolution say humans evolved from apes. [/quote]

What? People who promote evolution always say we evolved from Apes?[/quote]

No, we share a common ancestor with apes. It's sort of a nit-picking difference, but there is a distinction.

Posted: **Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:07 pm**

I guess I have heard both but thank you for the clarification on your belief

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:55 am**

PopeBenXVI wrote:I guess I have heard both but thank you for the clarification on your belief

No SCIENTIST or anyone knowledgeable of Evolution would say we evolved from Apes.

Only those OPPOSED or those who just don't understand evolution say we evolved from Apes.

We did not evolve from Neandrathals, either ... though that WAS what sxientists studying evolution thought for a while.

Posted: **Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:56 am**

Well that was a fun bit of irrelevant nit-picking. I'm sure player got the requisite daily kick out of being mind-bogglingly pedantic again, and we can now all move on.

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