Conquer Club

DiM wrote:

gimil wrote:Dim,

Your text on the left, right and bottom legends section is a tone of grey that matches the background. This makes it less pleasing to read. If you were to go with a vibrant white (like the text on the map itself) I feel the text will not only be easier to read (because it is a crisper colour) but will also make that particular font more consistent across the whole map.


Cheers,
gimil

check out the first 3 versions. the text was vibrant white and people complained it is too hard to read. then i made it like it is now and they said it's fine

Really? I prefer the more vibrant ones....

Perhaps some kind of compromise

well, the white vibrant text was reduced to 60% opacity at first, then it was upped to 70%.
perhaps making it 80% is the compromise you're looking for?

We will just have to see it, won't we?

seeing is believing

[bigimg]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/DiM-topia/allyourbasearebelongtousL-V9.jpg[/bigimg]

I think that is better. But I think I want more!

The different between the map typography and the legends typography disturbs me. I would rather see then the same for aesthetic consistency. But I don't want to push the point if people originally said it was to much.

But I am going to push anyway . Would it be cheeky for me to ask that the white goes up to 90% and the map text comes down to 90% also? That way they are not bright white (which people don't like) and they are consistant.

The latest font coloring was *much* easier to read for me, just fyi.

i hate to be a pusher but i'd like to hear thoughts on feedback. more precisely on this discussion here:

DiM wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:I think perhaps the functionality of the techs bonus-wise could stand to be changed to make things a little more interesting. While I like the simplicity of the tech pair bonus, consider another option. The second line of Level 1 techs bombard the "non-important" territories (we should probably come up with a different term for those territories, btw), the second line of Level 2 techs bombard labs/silos, and the first line of Level 3 techs assault bases. Perhaps instead of having a tech pair bonus, have bonuses that are related to their bombardments. So have like a +1 per 3 non-important territories for the first line of Level 1 techs (we could consider removing the territory bonus altogether, and have this be the source of territory bonuses, though I may prefer setting it such that only non-tech territories are apart of the territory bonus and have this be in addition), +1 or +2 per DNA Lab for the first line of Human Level 2 techs, and +1 or +2 per Nuke Silo for the first line of Alien Level 2 techs. Level 3 techs I think are fine without a bonus.

i see one big graphic problem with the suggestions you made for the gameplay. LEGEND SPACE
how on earth will i be able to explain all that and avoid having a wall of text to bore to death all the players?

and unfortunately i also see one big gameplay problem. right now the techs offer lots of little bonuses. basically there are 8 bonuses from the bases, 8 from the nukes and labs and 16 from the tech pairs. that's 32 bonuses. plenty for everybody to grab.
with your suggestion you will only have 8 bonuses for bases and 4 bonuses for tech + something. that's a drastic reduction.
in fact if you take away the bonuses for the starting bases you get from 24 achievable bonuses to just 4. this in my opinion limits the strategies and reduces the appeal of the map. with what you suggest only the people that hold the 1st line of tech 1 and tech 2 will get something.
and those bonuses will not only be very few but they'll also be very hard to get and hold. a whole line of tech is not an easy thing.

Victor Sullivan wrote:Some other things: I think the autodeploy on the bases should be reduced to 2. 3 seems very high to me. With a +3 auto, I feel like the losing condition would rarely come into play. Also, I think there should be a killer neutral between the second line of Level 2 and the first line of Level 3 (one killer neutral territory per line of tech, so 4). It doesn't have to be very high (maybe just 2-4), it's mainly to make more of a divider between techs and make the objective and assaulting the bases more difficult to get to.

i'm fine with reducing the autodeploy i'm not so sure on the killer neutrals though. how would that be explained? i mean the logic of the map. right now you have a linear progression which makes sense for researching a tech. but a killer neutral would basically mean that you research up to a certain point and then next turn you somehow lose a part of that research and have to do it all over again. it doesn't seem realistic.

or any other gameplay thoughts...

PS: on next version i'll update the text to 90% opacity all over the map.

I actually think that the tech trees don't need much in the way of gameplay 'spice'; the map is modestly complex as it stands. None of the additions I've seen suggested (with all due respect to the wonderful and constructive commenters who made them) seems to support/enhance the theme or goal of the map, but rather are aimed at tweaking the flow or complexity of play... which is a bad sign. I'm of the strong opinion that game flow can usually be regulated better by taking out elements rather than adding them. It avoids creating Frankenstein gameplay where elements are introduced on an ad hoc basis in order to satisfy every problem or conceit.

As far as the current framework goes, I think that overall it's pretty solid. This map feels like a Victory Objective map, which is a positive in my opinion. The Tech Victory Objective seems odd to me, however. Why all of level 3? Why not a pair from each level, for instance? I bring it up because tech level 1 seems a bit light in terms of attractiveness. It can be completely ignored in favor of other bonuses and/or the Victory Objectives without detriment.

I'm inclined to agree with Sully about lowering the autodeploy for the bases to +2.

As for clarity, there are several things (beyond the font) that probably should be addressed, but I'd rather see the elements themselves hammered out for certain before advancing any suggestions. However one thing I will say right now is that the Tech region nomenclature seems unneccesarily complex. Alphanumeric strings may fit the theme of the map, but I think that they should be kept as short as possible. In the tech trees, it seems that at least one letter can be eliminated without any confusion, the 'T'. So that "HT1.1" becomes "H1.1". It may seem like a small thing, but when a player is reading the logs she may thank you for the reduction of letters.

-- Marshal Ney

P.S. The 1st post needs map stats! In particular, list the neutral starts vs. open deployment, the number of regions and the breakdown of the drop (# of regions per players in various sized games such as 2p, 3p, 4p, etc.).

P.P.S. Also need to specifiy starting positions. I'm assuming that the bases are each a starting position, but I'd rather know for certain.

MarshalNey wrote: The Tech Victory Objective seems odd to me, however. Why all of level 3? Why not a pair from each level, for instance?

you don't need ALL of level 3. just all of the Human lvl 3 or all of the Alien level 3.

and this is done because there are 4 winning objectives and they all need to be balanced.

MarshalNey wrote: I bring it up because tech level 1 seems a bit light in terms of attractiveness. It can be completely ignored in favor of other bonuses and/or the Victory Objectives without detriment.

in order to get to level 2 you first need either a dna lab or a nuke silo. but for the lvl 1 pairs you simply attack from the base. also the lvl 1 techs offer you a bombarding option that no other tech offers. they may not be the best bonuses or the greatest bombardments but the tech lvl 1 represents an alternative and those are the easiest to get bonuses in the first round. if one chooses to ignore them and go for dna/nuke and then lvl 2 then it's their choice. i think it's great to give people choices and create more than one strategy.

MarshalNey wrote: I'm inclined to agree with Sully about lowering the autodeploy for the bases to +2.

ok

MarshalNey wrote: As for clarity, there are several things (beyond the font) that probably should be addressed, but I'd rather see the elements themselves hammered out for certain before advancing any suggestions. However one thing I will say right now is that the Tech region nomenclature seems unneccesarily complex. Alphanumeric strings may fit the theme of the map, but I think that they should be kept as short as possible. In the tech trees, it seems that at least one letter can be eliminated without any confusion, the 'T'. So that "HT1.1" becomes "H1.1". It may seem like a small thing, but when a player is reading the logs she may thank you for the reduction of letters.

the tech names will be changed to something else it;s just that i haven't managed to come up with all the names.

MarshalNey wrote: P.S. The 1st post needs map stats! In particular, list the neutral starts vs. open deployment, the number of regions and the breakdown of the drop (# of regions per players in various sized games such as 2p, 3p, 4p, etc.).

none of the maps have breakdowns for 2p 3p 4p. in fact there are very few maps that have a 1st post that's as organized as mine.
i could even go as far as saying my first post is the most complete 1st post that's present in the foundry right now. none of the other maps contain an update history as complex as mine and very few of them bothered to follow the template or present images with neutrals and starting locations.

MarshalNey wrote: P.P.S. Also need to specifiy starting positions. I'm assuming that the bases are each a starting position, but I'd rather know for certain.

starting positions are clearly shown on the map along with all the neutrals and the gameplay is extensively explained in the first post.

Cool idea, great map - can't wait to follow your progress on this!

DiM wrote:

MarshalNey wrote: The Tech Victory Objective seems odd to me, however. Why all of level 3? Why not a pair from each level, for instance?

you don't need ALL of level 3. just all of the Human lvl 3 or all of the Alien level 3.

and this is done because there are 4 winning objectives and they all need to be balanced.

I realize that one doesn't need all of level 3, sorry for the miscommunication. I stated two Victory Objectives but what I really should have said was 2 VO's per "side".

And I agree that the VO's seem decently balanced, I just wonder if there might not be a selection of regions that better suits the theme...

DiM wrote:

MarshalNey wrote: I bring it up because tech level 1 seems a bit light in terms of attractiveness. It can be completely ignored in favor of other bonuses and/or the Victory Objectives without detriment.

in order to get to level 2 you first need either a dna lab or a nuke silo. but for the lvl 1 pairs you simply attack from the base. also the lvl 1 techs offer you a bombarding option that no other tech offers. they may not be the best bonuses or the greatest bombardments but the tech lvl 1 represents an alternative and those are the easiest to get bonuses in the first round. if one chooses to ignore them and go for dna/nuke and then lvl 2 then it's their choice. i think it's great to give people choices and create more than one strategy.

Whoops, missed the bombardment instructions tucked away in the corners. Hmmm... that puts a different spin on the importance of Tech Level 1... although I'm not sure that it's a good thing. Between Tech Levels 1 and 2, the whole main map except the bases can be plastered, if I'm understanding correctly.

DiM wrote:

MarshalNey wrote: P.S. The 1st post needs map stats! In particular, list the neutral starts vs. open deployment, the number of regions and the breakdown of the drop (# of regions per players in various sized games such as 2p, 3p, 4p, etc.).

none of the maps have breakdowns for 2p 3p 4p. in fact there are very few maps that have a 1st post that's as organized as mine.
i could even go as far as saying my first post is the most complete 1st post that's present in the foundry right now. none of the other maps contain an update history as complex as mine and very few of them bothered to follow the template or present images with neutrals and starting locations.

MarshalNey wrote: P.P.S. Also need to specifiy starting positions. I'm assuming that the bases are each a starting position, but I'd rather know for certain.

starting positions are clearly shown on the map along with all the neutrals and the gameplay is extensively explained in the first post.

[/quote][/quote]

Sorry to disagree, but the 1st post is bare-bones right now. One can't assume that the map speaks for itself when clarity is still a work in progress (which it is at this stage). Newcomers as well as CAs like myself will be able to make better and faster comments on the map if the essentials are typed up in the 1st post.

I know that it's a pain, but I don't ask any less of any other map thread that I comment upon. (see Rome, for instance). I ask for a player breakdown when it's feasible to do so (i.e., when all of the neutrals are pretty much worked out).

As for the starting positions, they are not clear on the map as starting positions. All they are is colored numbers, which could mean open deployment or starting positions (I assume the former unless stated otherwise).

If there is no desire to clarify, that's up to the mapmaker of course. And you wouldn't be alone. But it will unfortunately hinder my ability to comment intelligibly. You seem keen to get the map progressing forward as quickly as possible, so I'm suggesting an expedient way to do so, as it will save visitors time and effort in analyzing the gameplay.

-- Marshal Ney

Hey DiM, copy-and-paste this into the first post:

Starting Positions:

• Each player starts with either a Human Base (Home symbol) or an Alien Base (Alien symbol). The Nuke Silos, DNA Labs, and techs start neutral. The rest is dealt out.

Neutrals:

• Nuke Silos and DNA Labs start neutral 3.
• The first row of each tech level starts neutral 2.
• The second row of each tech level starts neutral 3.
• The bases are underlying neutral 5's.

Attack Routes:

• Human Bases can attack one way any terit it borders on the map plus both ways the first row of Human Tech 1.
• Alien Bases can attack one way any terit it borders on the map plus both ways the first row of Alien Tech 1.
• Nuclear Silos can attack any terit it borders on the map plus the first row of Human Tech 2.
• DNA labs can attack any terit it borders on the map plus the first row of Alien Tech 2.
• Tech 1 2nd row can bombard any non-important terit (any region on the world map that does not have a symbol/is not a Nuke Silo, DNA Lab, Human or Alien Base) on the map.
• Human Tech 2 2nd row can bombard any DNA Lab and one-way attack Human Tech 3 1st row.
• Alien Tech 2 2nd row can bombard any Nuke Silo and one-way attack Alien Tech 3 1st row.
• Human Tech 3 1st row can bombard any Alien Base.
• Alien Tech 3 1st row can bombard any Human Base.

Winning Conditions:

1. Hold the entire last row of Tech Level 3 on either the Human or Alien side.
2. Hold all DNA Labs and one Alien Base.
3. Hold all Nuclear Silos and one Human Base.

Losing Conditions:

• If one does not hold at least one base (Human or Alien), he is eliminated.

Bonuses:

• Alien/Human Bases autodeploy +2
• Nuke Silos autodeploy +1
• DNA Labs autodeploy +1
• Tech "pairs" yield +2:
  
  • H1.1 + H1.4 = +2
  • H1.2 + H1.5 = +2
  • H1.3 + H1.6 = +2
  • A1.1 + A1.4 = +2
  • A1.2 + A1.5 = +2
  • A1.3 + A1.6 = +2
  • H2.1 + H2.4 = +2
  • H2.2 + H2.5 = +2
  • H2.3 + H2.6 = +2
  • A2.1 + A2.4 = +2
  • A2.2 + A2.5 = +2
  • A2.3 + A2.6 = +2

-Sully

Also, I'm fine with sticking to the tech pair bonus, Marshal made some good points, and as I said, I wasn't fully convinced myself.

I would, however, like to reiterate my desire to restrict the territory bonus to the land area (i.e. excluding the tech regions).

-Sully

the 1st post already has all those instructions that sully posted. however i will add his list:

[spoiler=V1]movement and attacks:

Each player will start with either a Human Base (Home symbol) or an Alien Base (Alien symbol) and some random non-important terits.
Human base can attack one way any terit it borders on the map plus both ways the first row of Human Tech 1 (i'm still not sure about the one way)
Alien base can attack one way any terit it borders on the map plus both ways the first row of Alien Tech 1 (i'm still not sure about the one way)
Nuke silo can attack any terit it borders on the map plus the first row of Human Tech 2
DNA lab can attack any terit it borders on the map plus the first row of Alien Tech 2
Tech 1 2nd row can bombard any non-umportant terit on the map
Human Tech 2 2nd row can bombard DNA Labs
Alien Tech 2 2nd row can bombard Nuke Silos
Human Tech 3 1st row can bombard any alien base
Alien Tech 3 1st row can bombard any human base
Human Tech 3 2nd row and Alien Tech 3 2nd row are only used for the objective.

for each race to get to the level 3 tech they must also master the tech of the opponent. for example if i start as a human base i must get to the second row of human tech 2 and i must also get to the second row of alien tech 2. but i'm not sure if this is possible with the current xml.
if it's not i'll have to find another way of getting to tech lvl 3.

winning conditions:
i have several ideas here but i'm not sure which one can be done. also i plan on making the map in such a way that it's impossible to eliminate a player and one can only wi by completing an objective. also it would be great if several objectives could be used and one could complete any of them,
1. hold the whole tech 3 for any race - this should be possible
2. take all alien labs if you started as a human base or all human silos if you started as an alien
3. hold all nukes if you started as a human or hold all labs if you started as an alien

losing conditions:
lose your base and you're gone.

Bonuses:
Alien/Human Base autodeploy +3
Nuke autodeploy +1
DNA autodeploy +1
HT1.1+HT1.4 = +2
HT1.2+HT1.5 = +2
HT1.3+HT1.6 = +2
(same for alien tech tree)
HT2.1+HT2.4=+3
HT2.2+HT2.5=+3
HT2.3+HT2.6=+3
(same for alien tech tree)[/spoiler]

MarshalNey wrote:Whoops, missed the bombardment instructions tucked away in the corners. Hmmm... that puts a different spin on the importance of Tech Level 1... although I'm not sure that it's a good thing. Between Tech Levels 1 and 2, the whole main map except the bases can be plastered, if I'm understanding correctly.

yes, except the bases which can be attacked from lvl 3 everything else on the world map can be bombarded either from lvl 1 or from lvl 2.
i doubt it would ever come to such a situation but even if it does i don't see a problem with it. in fact it perfectly fits the theme of aliens coming to earth and fighting us for supremacy.

MarshalNey wrote: Sorry to disagree, but the 1st post is bare-bones right now.

there are a lot of spoilers in the first post in order to keep its scrolling size decent. if you click all those spoilers you'll find all the info you want including what sully just posted. it's in the very first version spoiler.

using that info and the image with the numbers anybody can/should understand how the map works.

Thanks for editing that in, DiM. Remember, sugarplum, if they're happy, we're happy

-Sully

Victor Sullivan wrote:I would, however, like to reiterate my desire to restrict the territory bonus to the land area (i.e. excluding the tech regions).

-Sully

Remember that doing this will complicate the XML a great deal...

It's not hard XML to write - just an extra lot of it... and there's always the (annoying) force 1 to minus off the bonuses and detract from legibility in the log (see Poker club for an example of annoyance)

C.

yeti_c wrote:

Victor Sullivan wrote:I would, however, like to reiterate my desire to restrict the territory bonus to the land area (i.e. excluding the tech regions).

-Sully

Remember that doing this will complicate the XML a great deal...

It's not hard XML to write - just an extra lot of it... and there's always the (annoying) force 1 to minus off the bonuses and detract from legibility in the log (see Poker club for an example of annoyance)

C.

True, though I feel like this would one, make more sense, and two, it makes the regular land territories worth something (over the techs), given there are no 'continents'.

-Sully

V9
*changed all text to 90% opacity as requested
*changed the base bonus to +2
[bigimg]http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w250/DiM-topia/allyourbasearebelongtousL-V9-1.jpg[/bigimg]

The text of the tech levels does not seem to be in line with everything else. But everything else does look sweet!

things that need discussed:

1. sully's suggestion to restrict the territory bonus to the land area. how would i explain this on the map?
2. research names.

gimil wrote:The text of the tech levels does not seem to be in line with everything else. But everything else does look sweet!

it actually is set at precisely 90% but that text is bigger and that's why perhaps it looks different.
wait until i get new tech names and we'll see how those fit and what tweaks need to be done.

DiM wrote:

gimil wrote:The text of the tech levels does not seem to be in line with everything else. But everything else does look sweet!

it actually is set at precisely 90% but that text is bigger and that's why perhaps it looks different.
wait until i get new tech names and we'll see how those fit and what tweaks need to be done.

Must be an illusion making them look different. Visual illusions like these really piss me off

DiM wrote:things that need discussed:
2. research names.

Damn. I had some good ideas last time I was perusing this thread, but when I came back, it had been moved to recycling, so I recycled my thoughts!

Human tech ideas:
Artillery or Ballistics
EMPs
Lasers
Nukes

Alien tech ideas:
Gene splicing (as you mentioned previously)
Cloning
Reproduction
Infectious diseases
Infertilization

That's all I got for now.

DiM wrote:things that need discussed:

1. sully's suggestion to restrict the territory bonus to the land area. how would i explain this on the map?
2. research names.

(1) "There is no territory bonus for Tech regions." That's about as succinct as I can come up with at this time of night.

(2) I'm assuming that the names for the research will have to be limited to about 4 or 5 characters. Given that...

How about dividing up each 'column' of research into a certain type listed at the very top, then each subsequent region as you go down the line describes an improvement/development.

So for the Alien research, for example, you could have four columns (types) such as:
(TECH 1.1) VIRAL BOTS RAYS PROBES
(TECH 1.2) H1N1 DOOM STUN DEEP
(TECH 2.1) STD T-1000 DEATH MIND
(TECH 2.2) .... etc.

For Human research maybe use some inspiration from Men in Black or X-com (the old computer game series)....