Conquer Club

And i really hope you bother to read my previous post allthough it might be long and too 'liberal' for you.
By the way, amnesty international isn't liberal, they're Humanistic.

Humanism is liberal.

The school I attend does not cost any money. But I am not in college.

You have to realize: In the US, we are capitalist. You get what you earn. If a poor person is intelligent, they will get a scholarship for college.

DogDoc wrote:I was hoping to see a link to the information/statistics. I wasn't aware that we were guilty of state-sponsored executions of minors (minor is someone <18 years of age) and was just curious to see what they're basing that statement on.

If I remember rightly, the US doesn't execute minors, but will execute someone for a crime they committed while a minor (I don't know about the other countries).

While I'm opposed to the death penalty myself, I think this particular phrase about the US executing minors is a bit hyperbolic, certainly a bit misleading anyway.

RuS wrote:
In US: If you're born poor, you'll probably live in one of the poor sides of the city/country. You have all the rights rich people have. But, if you want education, you have to go to a bad school, cause you can't pay for a better one. You'll never be able to climb the ladder because you aren't able to get propre education (ok, there are people who can, self-made men, but they're rare, very rare.).
In Belgium (it's the country i know best): All children get FREE education. Schools are stimulated for helping poor children working up their way. All universities are open to everyone who's got a diploma 'middelbare school' (don't know how it's called in english, i'm sorry for that). People can get scholarfund to go to university.

The opportunity is there if you look for it and if you want it. I, by no means, came from a "rich" family, nor were we "poor." Yet when I made the decision to go to college I had nobody paying for it but me. So, I applied for scholarships, grants and when all else failed, student loans. I worked after classes and during the summer. And I studied hard, made decent grades, and fulfilled my lifelong dream of being a veterinarian. Did I go to Harvard or Yale or one of the other prestigious private schools? No. I couldn't afford that. And probably wouldn't have gone even if I could have. Did I go to a "bad" school? No, I went to a state-funded public university, got a good education, and consider myself one helluva good veterinarian.

I had friends as an undergraduate who, for all practical purposes, were attending school "free" in the sense that their parents footed the bill. They didn't take classes seriously, partied every night, and flunked out after 3 semesters. Would they have done that had they had to pay their way? I seriously doubt it. They probably wouldn't have gone at all if they had to pay their own way. And I guess that's the problem I have with what you described as "free" education. It doesn't take into account the motivation to go to school. If everything is given to you, I don't think you appreciate the opportunity as much as the person who is scrimping, saving and working his ass off. And a "free" education does not "weed out" those who are there just because they're too lazy to enter the work force and those who really want to enrich their lives with education and try to make something of their lives.

Getting back to the "poor," again, if the motivation is there, a good education can be had. There are tons of federal grants, scholarships for the underpriveleged and, of course, work-study programs. Just because you're "poor" does not mean you are doomed to having either no education or a sub-standard one. It comes down to choice. And values instilled by parents. If the parents do not value an education, do you think their children will?

If I understood you right, college in Belgium is provided free of charge? Or was the "free" part limited to grade school and high school (your "middle bare school" maybe or the German "Gymnasium"). If that's the case, we do that here in the States, too. Public education is an important part of every community across the country. And it's totally supported by tax dollars and "free" to all who attend. And yes, there are also private schools.

When you get past the high school level, I, for one, however, do not want my tax dollars going to pay for an education that someone may not even want or worse, don't even appreciate. I'm a firm believer that you get out of an experience what you put into it.

Stopper wrote:

DogDoc wrote:I was hoping to see a link to the information/statistics. I wasn't aware that we were guilty of state-sponsored executions of minors (minor is someone <18 years of age) and was just curious to see what they're basing that statement on.

If I remember rightly, the US doesn't execute minors, but will execute someone for a crime they committed while a minor (I don't know about the other countries).

While I'm opposed to the death penalty myself, I think this particular phrase about the US executing minors is a bit hyperbolic, certainly a bit misleading anyway.

Why, because they gave them a few years in juvenile hall before executing them? If they're being executed for their actions as a minor then they are a "minor" when they are executed. The date is irrelevent.

DogDoc wrote:Getting back to the "poor," again, if the motivation is there, a good education can be had. There are tons of federal grants, scholarships for the underpriveleged and, of course, work-study programs. Just because you're "poor" does not mean you are doomed to having either no education or a sub-standard one. It comes down to choice. And values instilled by parents. If the parents do not value an education, do you think their children will?

If the opportunity is so great for education, why are federal grants being downsized in importance? Oh yeah the price of college is increasing faster than the funding is so less low-income people are able to use them each year. That trend hasn't changed recently. With more and more graduates not using their degrees in the workforce the tendency is to not go to college right after high school. The public school systems are state run, so the quality shifts from district to district even with federal projects to alter that.

You realize al qaeda hates saddam and saddam hates al qaeda right happy?

DogDoc wrote:The opportunity is there if you look for it and if you want it. I, by no means, came from a "rich" family, nor were we "poor." Yet when I made the decision to go to college I had nobody paying for it but me. So, I applied for scholarships, grants and when all else failed, student loans. I worked after classes and during the summer. And I studied hard, made decent grades, and fulfilled my lifelong dream of being a veterinarian. Did I go to Harvard or Yale or one of the other prestigious private schools? No. I couldn't afford that. And probably wouldn't have gone even if I could have. Did I go to a "bad" school? No, I went to a state-funded public university, got a good education, and consider myself one helluva good veterinarian.

I had friends as an undergraduate who, for all practical purposes, were attending school "free" in the sense that their parents footed the bill. They didn't take classes seriously, partied every night, and flunked out after 3 semesters. Would they have done that had they had to pay their way? I seriously doubt it. They probably wouldn't have gone at all if they had to pay their own way. And I guess that's the problem I have with what you described as "free" education. It doesn't take into account the motivation to go to school. If everything is given to you, I don't think you appreciate the opportunity as much as the person who is scrimping, saving and working his ass off. And a "free" education does not "weed out" those who are there just because they're too lazy to enter the work force and those who really want to enrich their lives with education and try to make something of their lives.

Getting back to the "poor," again, if the motivation is there, a good education can be had. There are tons of federal grants, scholarships for the underpriveleged and, of course, work-study programs. Just because you're "poor" does not mean you are doomed to having either no education or a sub-standard one. It comes down to choice. And values instilled by parents. If the parents do not value an education, do you think their children will?

If I understood you right, college in Belgium is provided free of charge? Or was the "free" part limited to grade school and high school (your "middle bare school" maybe or the German "Gymnasium"). If that's the case, we do that here in the States, too. Public education is an important part of every community across the country. And it's totally supported by tax dollars and "free" to all who attend. And yes, there are also private schools.

When you get past the high school level, I, for one, however, do not want my tax dollars going to pay for an education that someone may not even want or worse, don't even appreciate. I'm a firm believer that you get out of an experience what you put into it.

Ok, probably bad example, but I'm sure you worked hard. And I must give you many congrats for that.
But yet again, if you go to the getto's for example, people just keep stuck in their poverty there, and probably not because they're lazy, but they aren't encouraged to give their children education or can't afford them going to a good school. Now don't be hippocrit and say: 'Free schools are good as well' because everyone knows the best teachers teach in private schools.

Other example, and probably a better one, healt care
What if you're born with an illness, because of which you cant study or get propre education, and your parents are poor?
Poor people mostly haven't got any insurance, so they have to pay it themselves all the time. They can't send their son or daughter to school because if you have to choose between books and meds, it's obvious you make sure your kid is in good health first.
In belgium health care isn't individual, it's organised by state. And sure I'm happy for that. Otherwise my parents would be broke by selling medications for me. (i've got asthma, (lung-disease))
But still, if you say the chances in US are equal to those in Belgium, why do we have better education overall (in Flandres, 2nd best of the world, after Japan I guess) and our crime rates are so much lower. And don't blame it on the weapons, because in Canada there are 5 guns for every person.
And, to answer your question, no, University isn't free. We pay like €500, I guess that's $750 in current course, a year without the books, . But if you can't afford it, state will give you a scholarship, by which it will cost you only your books, or, if you're richer, your books and half off the costs to get in university itself (I guess, not sure, cause I haven't got one). Highschool (or 'middelbare school') is free, but most people have to buy their own books, unless you're not that rich, you'll get a scholarship for that.

And by this I'm just telling, like I already did. Chances are equal in both countries, BUT in Belgium, there is more stimulation to go to school.

And @ happysadfun: Europe is also capitalist, they just spread wealth a bit better.

happysadfun wrote:In Iraq recently, one man (a teacher) was strapped with steel cables to car wheels. One arm on one car, the other on another. Same with the legs. The cars drove opposite directions. This man was torn apart. His bloody remains were burnt. Why did al-Qaeda (the same organisation you liberals love so dearly) do this to him? Well, this gruesome torture happened because this man taught girls. Where are your protests for equality? Where are your feminist rants? Why do you all want to quit in Iraq, like little wussies, before the job is done? Because it costs you something. "Sure, spread liberty through the world, whatever," you are saying, "but not at my expense."

hmmm, wow, way to kill your own argument, this would not have happened if the US hadn't invaded iraq, and thus you justify the execution of saddam hussein as the right thing to do? man i hate the guy, i hate what he did, and i thought he should be punished, but just as much as the idiots who invaded a country without thinking about the social and ethnic ramifications leading to the deaths of 30000+ people, with no end to the killing in sight. You embarrass the US with your mindless spouting of rhetoric, please tell me there are people who actually exercise their first ammendment(?) right to think for themselves.

sorry if i came off hot headed, didn't mean to say you were stupid, i just really hate some things.

DogDoc wrote:I was hoping to see a link to the information/statistics. I wasn't aware that we were guilty of state-sponsored executions of minors (minor is someone <18 years of age) and was just curious to see what they're basing that statement on.

As i said, this was until 2005, when the US stopped executing minors (after Simmons v Roper, March 1st 2005).
The US no longer executes juveniles. My point was that all this bloodthirsty YEEHAH reaction to Saddam's hanging is disturbing, especially coming from death penalty supporters from one of the most execution-friendly countries in the world (along with Iran, China, Pakistan, Congo etc). Amnesty may be nothing more than a liberal propaganda machine (my god HSF you are a massive fuckwit) but those executions did actually happen. Here is the list: http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenal ... -stats-eng
Whether their only purpose was as liberal propaganda is open to argument.

And Happysadfun - are you really as monumentally ignorant as you make out? Do you really see everything in black and white? Is anyone who disagrees with you abotu abortion, the death penalty, Iraq, welfare etc an evil amercac-hating liberal commie pinko heathen? Do you really form opinions on such a basic, preschool level?

Look man, you may be a spoon-fed stereotype who actually believes that we are engaged in a war of good vs evil, that you are 100% right and everyone else is wrong, that Europe is a US-hating communist recruitment centre, and whatever else crazy bullshit you get drip-fed by your talk show jocks and born-again fundamentalists - but i'm not. You suggest over and over again that anyone who opposes this war, or the death penalty, is an 'al qaeda lover', a 'humanist' (god forbid), an 'America hater' - because this is what you got told to think. Makes things easier for the politicians, see? 'You're either with us, or against us'. Black and white politics for the more moronic and slavish members of society, like yourself. Don't worry about it man. And please don't EVER think for yourself past the obvious and easy caricatures you seem so happy to accept unquestioningly.

happysadfun wrote:In Iraq recently, one man (a teacher) was strapped with steel cables to car wheels. One arm on one car, the other on another. Same with the legs. The cars drove opposite directions. This man was torn apart. His bloody remains were burnt.

I would love to read more about this attrocity from a reputable news orginazation. Surely you have a source and will respond with it. Please dont be like jay and ignore this simple request.

happysadfun wrote:the same organisation you liberals love so dearly

Why would you say that liberals, or any proud americans for that matter, would love al-qaeda? Thats just assinine...but not much of a surprise coming from you.

happysadfun wrote:Why do you all want to quit in Iraq, like little wussies, before the
job is done?

Because it is/was a mistake and had nothing to do with 9-11...something that the MAJORITY of americans (of all parties) now realize. Why do YOU and your shrinking minority want to continue to kill-off our fine American fighting men & women and spend our country into the deepest debt ever recorded, for no gain? Why dont you want to spend our money & forces on FINDING OSAMA BIN LADEN, the actual leader of the 9-11 attackers? He isnt and never was in Iraq.

Curious...why does admitting you made a mistake make you a "little wussy"? Is that what you teach your children? Most likely, I am guessing.

We arent fighting al-qaeda in iraq. We arent "fighting terror" in iraq. We are fighting a faction of the iraqy people who see us as invaders...the people we were sent to "save".

happysadfun, please explain to all of us exactly what constitutes "getting the job done" as even our ape-faced idiot leader doesnt seem to know.

heavycola wrote:And happysadfun - are you really as monumentally ignorant as you make out? Is anyone who disagrees with you abotu abortion, the death penalty, Iraq, welfare etc an evil amercac-hating liberal commie pinko heathen?

I will answer for him.

Yes...and most of the fairy-tale-believing religious right feel the same. If you dont fall directly in line with their narrow-minds, then you hate america and they hate you. It's very christian of them isnt it!

BUT they love you...and pray for you daily.

Hey I'm a Christian, please don't bring that into this, please?
And about the getting the job done, if you say the job is instigating democracy then i think its already a failed cause. You have three disparate peoples who do not see themselves as Iraqi but as Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, so if these people democratically decide to remain separate from the other two peoples are you going to force democracy on them, against their wishes?
The only thing keeping these people together was Saddam, now that hes dead i dont think you will find unity easy to come by.

Thanks for the link. I got it now - minors at the time of the offense, not minors at the time of execution (which was how I was reading your post.)

RuS wrote:But yet again, if you go to the getto's for example, people just keep stuck in their poverty there, and probably not because they're lazy, but they aren't encouraged to give their children education or can't afford them going to a good school. Now don't be hippocrit and say: 'Free schools are good as well' because everyone knows the best teachers teach in private schools.

They're not "stuck." The opportunity is there. They're just not taking it because they don't have anyone to guide them along and encourage them. Many of whom you speak don't even know who their fathers are. It's a breakdown of the family unit that's the problem, not because there is no opportunity. And yes, some of the public schools are as good if not better than some of the private ones. We have (and I imagine most communities in the U.S. now have) what are called "magnet" schools, which are public schools, that emphasize the education needed for college prep. These schools are open to all, regardless of where you live. The only requirement is ambition, which is sadly lacking among many. And that won't change until the parents decide to get involved in their children's lives.

I wonder what Amnesty International's sources are for child executions... you know thery could have made it up.

Pro-choicers are not anti-American, but anti-Life. :)

DogDoc wrote:

They're not "stuck." The opportunity is there. They're just not taking it because they don't have anyone to guide them along and encourage them. Many of whom you speak don't even know who their fathers are. It's a breakdown of the family unit that's the problem, not because there is no opportunity. And yes, some of the public schools are as good if not better than some of the private ones. We have (and I imagine most communities in the U.S. now have) what are called "magnet" schools, which are public schools, that emphasize the education needed for college prep. These schools are open to all, regardless of where you live. The only requirement is ambition, which is sadly lacking among many. And that won't change until the parents decide to get involved in their children's lives.

Thanks, without even noticing, you made my point clear. (and sorry for the bad expression in 'stuck', but English isn't my first language, so can't put the nuance on the right place)
I'm sorry to say, but in Belgium, they find a way to deal with it and it works much better.

BTW: to make everything clear. I'm absolutely not against the US or something like that. I'm just a critical-thinker. I do it about almost everything, and if you would know a bit about Belgium, I can go on for hours about my own country.

And a final note to happysadfun:
So, by being against executions, WE are anti-life...
You really ARE making sense there.

No problem - I wish I had as good of a grasp of a second language as you. I studied German for 3 years in college and spent a summer in Austria when I was 21. My German got pretty good while I was there but I haven't used it now in over 20 years and I've pretty much lost any proficiency I had.

Well, getting back to Saddam being dead, here's a story about how Libya's going to build him a goddamn statue!

I'm not really outraged or anything. I guess it's because Qaddaffi tries too hard to be outrageous. I guess he's back in the Pan-Arab thing again.


I heard his daughter the lawyer was part of Saddam's defense team.

happysadfun wrote:I wonder what Amnesty International's sources are for child executions... you know thery could have made it up.

Why? What would their agenda be? Do you have any idea what Amnesty International does? Do you ever think before you type?

Jehan - my apologies, i didn't mean to besmirch christians as a group.