The Discussion on Map Size (Decision on Pg 1 & 11)

mibi · Post by **mibi** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:58 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:World 2.1 is being REVAMPed, and the finished product up within the next couple of days/week, or so.

--Andy

well if this is a case of 'one step back, zero steps forward', then i don't know what is.

Wisse · Post by **Wisse** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:49 pm

maybe have an option to select if you want to have extra large maps? (by the large and tiny option) then if people want to make an extra large map they can do it but it is not permitted

Night Strike · Post by **Night Strike** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:54 pm

Ok, I've been watching to all of this but haven't said much. I did read the point of having a few epic maps and no more. I suggest that after the World 2.1 REVAMP is finished (and maybe after 8 player games have started), we allow for 2, maybe 3 of these maps to be created. They should be World 3.0 and WW2 Europe. These maps could be limited to just premium members and for just 6-8 player games.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:05 pm

Night Strike wrote:Ok, I've been watching to all of this but haven't said much. I did read the point of having a few epic maps and no more. I suggest that after the World 2.1 REVAMP is finished (and maybe after 8 player games have started), we allow for 2, maybe 3 of these maps to be created. They should be World 3.0 and WW2 Europe. These maps could be limited to just premium members and for just 6-8 player games.

why world 3.0 and ww2 europe? why just a few maps why just 6-8 player game? why only for prmiums? why all these limitations?

map size should be whatever the map maker wants. the best market is a market that regulatest itself with no outside intervention and no restrictions.
if tommorrow i make a 2000*2000 map and people play it despite its size it means i've done something right.
however if my map proves to be so big that people simply refuse to play it it means 2000*2000 is an unacceptable size and soon the ideal needs for the market will be discovered by offering various products and judging reactions. unfortunately not even the market research isn't taken into consideration by the foundry leaders. there have been several polls and topics where most people agreed they'd like to scroll a bit if that would bring them bigger maps.
but we have a sick market here, a market where the higher powers chose to interfere and regulate the natural flow.

Night Strike · Post by **Night Strike** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:24 pm

I suggested those limitations (or similar ones) because that's probably the only way lack and others would approve them at this stage of the game.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:27 pm

Night Strike wrote:I suggested those limitations (or similar ones) because that's probably the only way lack and others would approve them at this stage of the game.

nope. there's no reason for these limitations. if CC starts adding more and more limitations all the fun will be lost.

Coleman · Post by **Coleman** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:25 am

mibi wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:World 2.1 is being REVAMPed, and the finished product up within the next couple of days/week, or so.

--Andy

well if this is a case of 'one step back, zero steps forward', then i don't know what is.

Where is this revamp? Or is this a secret revamp that gets to skip the foundry process?

Qwert · Post by **Qwert** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:25 am

AndyDufresne
Zookeeper & Foundry Foreman

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 4803
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo
Posted: 12 Sep 2007 15:22 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

World 2.1 is being REVAMPed, and the finished product up within the next couple of days/week, or so.

--Andy

coleman
Where is this revamp? Or is this a secret revamp that gets to skip the foundry process?

I must say that coleman is complete right,why you work revamp and nobody can see these?

Chirondom · Post by **Chirondom** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:35 pm

Why does it need revamping? It's fine how it is.

I don't see why this has to be applied retroactively. No one is forcing anyone to play World 2.1 if they don't want to. I can see doing an optional smaller map, but the map is really fine as it is, if you ask me (as well as many others).

insomniacdude · Post by **insomniacdude** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:23 pm

gimil wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:
Marvaddin wrote:Keyogi, I understand some people dislike scrolling down, but whats the problem if people that dont care about scroll down play a bigger map? Isnt "dont like it, dont play it" the main rule about maps and community? Just wondering...
It is not that those people care to scroll down on a bigger map, it is that the bigger map cannot be shrunk down to fit into a smaller map that does NOT require scrolling.

Again, BIG maps are NOT bad.

It is that the content in a Really BIG map cannot fit into a small map. And Lack wants small maps for ALL maps.

My personal stance on the discussion is this:

All maps are required to stay withinthe 600px limit. However maps with high support and a REAL need for the extra space should be discussed in lenght and a happy compremise should be met.

Seconded (though the opinion of a lurker may or may not have as much weight as a cartographer). The size limitations should stay in place as a general rule of thumb, but in extreme cases when there isn't another option without sacrificing too much gameplay, the mods should try to reach a compromise. I mean, W2.0 broke the restrictions at the time, and that's gone on to be the second-most popular map amongst the players. It must be doing SOMETHING right, even in spite of the incessant scrolling.

I understand the need to keep maps small. It help save bandwidth, it helps new players stay by making the maps seem less cumbersome and annoying, and it helps uniformity. I just personally think that the negatives of a standard size limit outweigh those positives.

The debate is over anyway, so it doesn't matter. I can't even say this is my two cents. This is my singular penny that can't even fit into the vending machine any more :-(

hulmey · Post by **hulmey** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:45 pm

Yeah well tell that to the "man"

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:57 pm

Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts, Great Lakes)
Oaktown(Chinese Checkers)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)
Bad Speler(Arctic)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

cairnswk · Post by **cairnswk** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:08 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:...but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.
W123

Luv the pop guns :lol:

i guess fuzzy and myself are busily building that impassable brick wall to sit on.

W123 PMed me and this is the context of my reply - for the record....

wrightfan123 wrote:
In the map size revolution, I was wondering if you were on the mods side, the revolutionists side, or if you were neutral. It's hard to tell from looking at the posts.

W123

cairnwk wrote:Yes I sat on the post a bit, mainly because I am happy to work within the current guidelines.

I would like to have extra room if i needed to develop something large; to that extent I am pro revolutionary. Pearl Harbor could have done with a little extra space so it wasn't so crowded on the small map, and indeed at one stage I was encouraged by a foundry mapmaker to do this with the small map of Pearl Harbor.

I do understand the mods and lackattack's veiwpoint however.

Either way i am happy to work within the current guidelines if the current size requirements continue and will adapt my maps accordingly.

I don't think the way to go is with 3 size maps. As a mapmaker, there is already enough work in doing two maps. To extend this out to three would be a tremendous amount of time and energy,

Perhaps the solution is to have the small map at the current size a reduced territory version of whatever the large map is developed at.

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:09 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

Broken pop guns. But seriously, I have to say I'm on the mods' side, although I haven't spoken out too much. I'm thinking about joining in and helping exterminate those rebel scum (just kidding).

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:12 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

Broken pop guns. But seriously, I have to say I'm on the mods' side, although I haven't spoken out too much. I'm thinking about joining in and helping exterminate those rebel scum (just kidding).

Yea, you already told me that, so I marked you down with WidowMakers. That okay?

W123

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:17 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:
pepperonibread wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

Broken pop guns. But seriously, I have to say I'm on the mods' side, although I haven't spoken out too much. I'm thinking about joining in and helping exterminate those rebel scum (just kidding).

Yea, you already told me that, so I marked you down with WidowMakers. That okay?

W123

Yeah, it's fine. I just wanted to say it to everyone.

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:20 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

where's mibi or gimil? :roll:

PS: vive la revolucion :lol:

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:55 pm

DiM wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

where's mibi or gimil?

PS: vive la revolucion

I'm only really posting map makers or super important people that everyone knows (i.e. hecter, even though he has nothing to do with this.) Like I said, I'll make ajustments if necessary. I really made that so people who are just noticing this can figure out the just of it without looking through all 13 pages.

W123

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:03 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:
DiM wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

where's mibi or gimil?

PS: vive la revolucion

I'm only really posting map makers or super important people that everyone knows (i.e. hecter, even though he has nothing to do with this.) Like I said, I'll make ajustments if necessary. I really made that so people who are just noticing this can figure out the just of it without looking through all 13 pages.

W123

They're both mapmakers. Mibi (Siege, D-Day in FF), and gimil (Portugal in FF).

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:05 pm

pepperonibread wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:
DiM wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(8 Thoughts)

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

where's mibi or gimil?

PS: vive la revolucion

I'm only really posting map makers or super important people that everyone knows (i.e. hecter, even though he has nothing to do with this.) Like I said, I'll make ajustments if necessary. I really made that so people who are just noticing this can figure out the just of it without looking through all 13 pages.

W123

They're both mapmakers. Mibi (Siege, D-Day in FF), and gimil (Portugal in FF).

Thanks good buddy. Needed clarification on that. Other wise I'd have nameless doobies on my list

.

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:09 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(Seige, 8 Thoughts)
Mibi(Seige, D-day(FF))
gimil(Portugal(FF))

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

DiM · Post by **DiM** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:11 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(Seige, 8 Thoughts)
Mibi(Seige, D-day(FF))
gimil(Portugal(FF))

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

so are we still "fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns" ?

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:18 pm

DiM wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(Seige, 8 Thoughts)
Mibi(Seige, D-day(FF))
gimil(Portugal(FF))

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

so are we still "fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns" ?

No... now it's hailing. I just pmed every map maker whose name I could find and read, so we'll have way more information soon. I'm really interested to see what zim says, since World 2.1 has been the basis of your argument.

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:19 pm

DiM wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:
wrightfan123 wrote:Okay, as far as I see it this is kind of the revolution break-down:

Loyalists:
WidowMakers(King of the Mountains, Great Lakes, Circus Maximus Revamp, Indochina Revamp, Quebec Revamp, 8 Thoughts graphics, Rail USA graphics)
Pepperonibread(Extreme Global Warming)

Rebels:
qwert(WWII Eastern Front)
DiM(Age of Mechants)
Coleman(Seige, 8 Thoughts)
Mibi(Seige, D-day(FF))
gimil(Portugal(FF))

Neutrals(as far as I can tell):
The Fuzzy Pengui(Brazil Revamp)
Cairns(Cairns Coral Coast, Peral Harbor, WWII Battle for Austraila, Valley of the Kings, Rail USA graphics)

I will constantly update this as people pledge their allengence and correct my mistakes. In the mean time, I guess the battle continues; but at this point, the rebels are fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns.

W123

so are we still "fighting up-hill... in the rain... blindfolded... with pop guns" ?

Well, we've got the mods on our side. Some people may call it an Andy-ocracy, but you guys have still run into somewhat of a barrier with the official decision.

pepperonibread · Post by **pepperonibread** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:21 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:No... now it's hailing. I just pmed every map maker whose name I could find and read, so we'll have way more information soon. I'm really interested to see what zim says, since World 2.1 has been the basis of your argument.

Supposedly it's being revamped, maybe by zim (not revamped publicly).