ancessus Game Ruining

[Lord_Bremen]

Accused:
ancessus

The accused are suspected of:
Other: Game ruining

Game number(s):
Game 24162256

Comments:
Ancessus (blue) is in last place (by a bunch) in a No Spoils tourney game. There's about 5 rounds left (of 20). He's clearly got no chance to win. Yet for some inexplicable reason he took both of his stacks - literally all his armies - and suicided them into me (red). I reached out in pm and he offered some nonsense about how he "always" hits the top player. I pointed out that he had no chance to win this game - losing his stacks in fact made his slim chance zero - and he insisted that he will continue this behavior. So while I know the game is not over, we're in 5 games together, so I wanted to get this out before he does it again in another one.

The first happened in turn 14. Here's what it looked like before his turn:

The attachment firstpre.png is no longer available

After the suicide, which took out one of my bonuses and lost his entire stack:

firstpost

firstpost.png (67.93 KiB) Viewed 437 times

He did it again in turn 15, taking out my other bonus. Before:

secondpre

secondpre.png (56.61 KiB) Viewed 437 times

After:

secondpost

secondpost.png (52.81 KiB) Viewed 437 times

As a result of his suicides, I lost several stacks and two bonuses, and he's got 1 region in total. There is just no possible reason for him to have done this except to try and cost me the game. Even if he knocks me off the lead (as likely happened), there are four other people ahead of him, especially now that he's spent all his stacks and has no bonus. The only possible result of his behavior is to throw the game so that I lose.

Update: Forum update seems to have broken pictures, but I'll re-upload when it's fixed. They are the real evidence.

[Rushing777]

all you can do is foe mate, there is nothing in the rules that says you cant attack or suicide.

[SoN!c]

Ancessus is a good player and good sports. Im sure his perspective of the game saw it different. If he does that to you in lets say 5 games then i understand that you fill in some report to complain.. But based on just one game? Accept It happens?

Your perspective on that game is not the same perspective the other players have..each man tries to win it..

[Lord_Bremen]

all you can do is foe mate, there is nothing in the rules that says you cant attack or suicide.

That is false. Deliberately wasting your armies to give the win to one player over another is a violation of the rules. He is very obviously trying to cost me the win, in favor of one of the other players (and also obviously not in his own favor).

"Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games..."

See for example https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 9&t=240556, https://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewt ... 9&t=240726

[Apatheist]

If he's got no chance to win, as you said, by definition I wouldn't have thought that counts as throwing the game. Doesn't that mean losing a game that one might at least have had a chance of winning?

[Lord_Bremen]

If he's got no chance to win, as you said, by definition I wouldn't have thought that counts as throwing the game. Doesn't that mean losing a game that one might at least have had a chance of winning?

Imagine a game with three people. Two are close; the third is not. On the final turn, the third player uses all his armies to ensure that the one in second place wins. This "throws" the game to that player, when otherwise he would have lost. That's not allowed. You can do anything you'd like to try to win for yourself, even if it's dumb. The intention is what matters. You can't do things to help other people win if it doesn't also help you in some way. In this case, he made his own position worse just to screw me over.

[ancessus]

Hello,

I foed Lord Bremen after receiving these crying-baby messages. I explained to him what the purpose of my move was, but it seems he can’t understand it.
But since the post wasn’t closed after a few days, and I received a notification about it, it means I can also explain my point of view. So I’m doing this for our communities, not for the crying baby.

We are in one of many 6-player games: No Spoils, No Forts, foggy, in a tournament.
From my point of view, in these games you have limited ways to win. First, you try to take a bonus bigger than your opponents’ and hold it until the end of the game (or until you have enough to kill everyone).

If you can’t take a bonus, you just stack somewhere and try to prevent others from getting a bonus.
And that is exactly what I was doing here. I was stacking without taking any bonus, because taking and holding one on this map is quite difficult. So when I saw that Red (the author of this topic) had a bonus, I took it from him to prevent him from winning the game. Of course, I wouldn’t have done that if I had had a bigger drop than him. That’s the basis of a strategy game.

I’ve done the same thing in other games against other players. In others, it was the opposite: I got a bonus and others used their stacks to take it back or prevent me from winning.

We could discuss that strategy without any problem (and since I might lose some of these games, I may review it myself), but it’s nothing more than my strategy. I don’t care who I’m fighting; I just see the color of the enemy armies on these maps.

There is nothing here that deserves to be reported. I did not suicide my troops into a bigger stack. I only prevented someone from having more troops to drop than me in order to try to win the game. And I don’t know who is winning at any moment because of the fog, so contrary to what the “baby” says, I cannot focus the winning player.


Then, if I’m actually breaking any CC rules, please tell me which ones.
Or maybe this message is against the rules because I’m being too aggressive…
But after all the messages I got from that guy, having to explain everything again just feels like I’m wasting my time for nothing.

[Lord_Bremen]

Hello,

If you can’t take a bonus, you just stack somewhere and try to prevent others from getting a bonus.
And that is exactly what I was doing here. I was stacking without taking any bonus, because taking and holding one on this map is quite difficult. So when I saw that Red (the author of this topic) had a bonus, I took it from him to prevent him from winning the game. Of course, I wouldn’t have done that if I had had a bigger drop than him. That’s the basis of a strategy game.

I’ve done the same thing in other games against other players. In others, it was the opposite: I got a bonus and others used their stacks to take it back or prevent me from winning.

Even a cursory look at the game will show he's obviously lying. This wasn't a situation where one player had a bonus and he was breaking it. This was a game where five or six other players all had bonuses. He had none. He waited 15 rounds, and then suicided both of his stacks (all his armies) into me two turns in a row. I wasn't the only player with a bonus. He ignored the others entirely, even though they had more armies than him even before the suicide. This was not in any sense an attempt to win the game. Note that he hasn't offered even the slightest suggestion of how these tactics might potentially have won him this game, because he can't.

There is simply no logic where suiciding all of your armies when you have no bonus and are in last place with five rounds left makes the least bit of logical sense. I don't know what his problem with me is, but this was obviously a deliberate suicide to try and cost me the game.

[Donelladan]

I pointed out that he had no chance to win this game - losing his stacks in fact made his slim chance zero - and he insisted that he will continue this behavior.

I think this is not accurate that losing his stacks made his "slim chance" zero.

If you're in a stacking game, and you have less bonus than the other, then to keep stacking and waiting for the round limit is NOT the best strategy. It's a guaranteed loss.
The only way you win in a stacking game when you have less bonus, is if for some reason someone else start attacking.
But if we go around forbidding people to attack in no spoils round limit game, then what is it to do ?

Actually, 5 rounds before the end, is usually more or less a good time to start attacking.
Either you try to take a bonus early on.
Or if you fail to do so or choose not to, then your best bet is to stack and hope other players will fight over bonuses, making your stacking strategy a good choice.
if you decide not to take a bonus, hoping people fighting for bonus will be weaker, but then the people with bonus proceed to start stacking, then you've lost the game.
But you can only notice that after a couple of rounds, you don't notice that round 2. So usually it's clear mid game that people aren't going to fight.

The only rational choice you have is then to try to provoke action, which you should do by attacking other people.
I've personally used that strategy, coupled with chat to explain what I do and steer the game in the direction I need.

So, attacking around round 15 to make stuff happen isn't really a stupid choice. I'd say it's even almost the only choice. Because if he just wait he know 100% sure he lose the game.

I wouldn't have played it exactly the same way, but I would have try smthg as well.

[Kingm]

Hello,

If you can’t take a bonus, you just stack somewhere and try to prevent others from getting a bonus.
And that is exactly what I was doing here. I was stacking without taking any bonus, because taking and holding one on this map is quite difficult. So when I saw that Red (the author of this topic) had a bonus, I took it from him to prevent him from winning the game. Of course, I wouldn’t have done that if I had had a bigger drop than him. That’s the basis of a strategy game.

I’ve done the same thing in other games against other players. In others, it was the opposite: I got a bonus and others used their stacks to take it back or prevent me from winning.

Even a cursory look at the game will show he's obviously lying. This wasn't a situation where one player had a bonus and he was breaking it. This was a game where five or six other players all had bonuses. He had none. He waited 15 rounds, and then suicided both of his stacks (all his armies) into me two turns in a row. I wasn't the only player with a bonus. He ignored the others entirely, even though they had more armies than him even before the suicide. This was not in any sense an attempt to win the game. Note that he hasn't offered even the slightest suggestion of how these tactics might potentially have won him this game, because he can't.

There is simply no logic where suiciding all of your armies when you have no bonus and are in last place with five rounds left makes the least bit of logical sense. I don't know what his problem with me is, but this was obviously a deliberate suicide to try and cost me the game.

Lord_Bremen, multiplayer NS games is IMHO a really really daft gamemode, and there is really no "right" way to play it, the best way to play those horrible settings is probably in gamechat, try to manipulate shit to get an edge.

I have never seen anything from ancessus that does not have believing that the dude is a class act, I had a look at the game from the gamelog and there is nothing obvious at all there, so not sure what you mean when yoy say "to have a cursory look at the game".

[Lord_Bremen]

I pointed out that he had no chance to win this game - losing his stacks in fact made his slim chance zero - and he insisted that he will continue this behavior.

I think this is not accurate that losing his stacks made his "slim chance" zero.

If you're in a stacking game, and you have less bonus than the other, then to keep stacking and waiting for the round limit is NOT the best strategy. It's a guaranteed loss.
The only way you win in a stacking game when you have less bonus, is if for some reason someone else start attacking.
But if we go around forbidding people to attack in no spoils round limit game, then what is it to do ?

Actually, 5 rounds before the end, is usually more or less a good time to start attacking.
Either you try to take a bonus early on.
Or if you fail to do so or choose not to, then your best bet is to stack and hope other players will fight over bonuses, making your stacking strategy a good choice.
if you decide not to take a bonus, hoping people fighting for bonus will be weaker, but then the people with bonus proceed to start stacking, then you've lost the game.
But you can only notice that after a couple of rounds, you don't notice that round 2. So usually it's clear mid game that people aren't going to fight.

The only rational choice you have is then to try to provoke action, which you should do by attacking other people.
I've personally used that strategy, coupled with chat to explain what I do and steer the game in the direction I need.

So, attacking around round 15 to make stuff happen isn't really a stupid choice. I'd say it's even almost the only choice. Because if he just wait he know 100% sure he lose the game.

I wouldn't have played it exactly the same way, but I would have try smthg as well.

The issue is *not* that he attacked me. That's normal in these games. If he had just broken my bonus, that would have been stupid but fine. He did a similar thing in another game (he's now in last place in that game, but it wasn't the equivalent of what he did here). But he didn't just break my bonus. As you can see in the screenshots, he used his entire stack. He went several territories deep, and left all his guys there. This was much more than simply breaking my bonus in order to stimulate action; it was clearly a suicide. He did this two turns in a row, while ignoring the other 6 players who are all obviously ahead of him. In other words, even if his attack provoked more attacks he would still have lost by a ton.

[Lord_Bremen]

Lord_Bremen, multiplayer NS games is IMHO a really really daft gamemode, and there is really no "right" way to play it, the best way to play those horrible settings is probably in gamechat, try to manipulate shit to get an edge.

I have never seen anything from ancessus that does not have believing that the dude is a class act, I had a look at the game from the gamelog and there is nothing obvious at all there, so not sure what you mean when yoy say "to have a cursory look at the game".

Look at the screenshots. The log won't tell you anything in a foggy game.

[ancessus]

He went several territories deep, and left all his guys there.

Right, I should have fortified them back… WAIT! Aren’t we in a no-reinforcement game?
I can only move them by attacking…

This was much more than simply breaking my bonus in order to stimulate action; it was clearly a suicide.

Suicide definition: the act of killing yourself intentionally.

Wait… I'm not dead yet

By the way, I didn’t find this in our community’s common rules, but “suiciding” in the usual sense would mean sending all my troops (not just the ones you see) to a certain death, like throwing 20 troops against your 50. Here again, I had enough to win against you and prevent you from getting a bonus that turn. That’s not suicide, that’s strategy — even if I might lose the game afterward. Doing nothing would have led to a certain loss.

In the other game you mentioned(Game 24162258), I had more troops than everyone and a good bonus. It’s true that I took a bonus from you when you got it, which cost me some of those troops (and again… it wasn’t because it was you, but because it was easy to take). However, in that game, other players backstabbed me in return(the main difference maybe it's sunny here), and yes, you’re right, I'm losing it now. And did you notice? I haven’t sent troops against you (or the others) since then! I’m just stacking again, waiting in the shadows to see if someone will move against the new leader on that map. I have no hope there; it’s not my responsibility to make a move, as I’m not near any other bonus.

And finally… I know it’s not against the rules to reveal your view in an ongoing foggy game… but I think that’s something I wouldn’t do. I think it’s against CC’s spirit.

[Donelladan]

Look at the screenshots. The log won't tell you anything in a foggy game.

Fyi, I can't see the picture anymore since the update of the forums.

[Lord_Bremen]

He went several territories deep, and left all his guys there.

Right, I should have fortified them back… WAIT! Aren’t we in a no-reinforcement game?
I can only move them by attacking…

This was much more than simply breaking my bonus in order to stimulate action; it was clearly a suicide.

Suicide definition: the act of killing yourself intentionally.

Wait… I'm not dead yet

By the way, I didn’t find this in our community’s common rules, but “suiciding” in the usual sense would mean sending all my troops (not just the ones you see) to a certain death, like throwing 20 troops against your 50. Here again, I had enough to win against you and prevent you from getting a bonus that turn. That’s not suicide, that’s strategy — even if I might lose the game afterward. Doing nothing would have led to a certain loss.

In the other game you mentioned(Game 24162258), I had more troops than everyone and a good bonus. It’s true that I took a bonus from you when you got it, which cost me some of those troops (and again… it wasn’t because it was you, but because it was easy to take). However, in that game, other players backstabbed me in return(the main difference maybe it's sunny here), and yes, you’re right, I'm losing it now. And did you notice? I haven’t sent troops against you (or the others) since then! I’m just stacking again, waiting in the shadows to see if someone will move against the new leader on that map. I have no hope there; it’s not my responsibility to make a move, as I’m not near any other bonus.

And finally… I know it’s not against the rules to reveal your view in an ongoing foggy game… but I think that’s something I wouldn’t do. I think it’s against CC’s spirit.

Suiciding means using your armies to hurt someone else when you have no chance to win. If you're in third place, and you use all your armies to hit the guy in first place to ensure the second place guy wins, that's suiciding/game throwing and it's against the rules.

Go look at the logs. In the first instance, after breaking my bonus (Franche), you moved your entire stack in and right-clicked on a much larger stack (Burgund) that was not part of my bonus. You knew this, as you could see teal holding the adjacent territory. You wasted a bunch of armies *after* the bonus had been broken, and ensured your entire stack would be destroyed. That's not the same thing as breaking my bonus and leaving one army there. In the second, again, you went two territories deep and again left several armies inside my territory to be destroyed. None of these moves are consistent with just hitting my bonus to give yourself a chance, because *after* hitting my bonus you continued to waste your entire stack to no purpose other than costing me a few extra armies. That's suiciding, and it's against the rules.

[SoN!c]

Eehhh? Are we still discussing this? Let's wait for 2 games minimum???? - Anything goes in just 1 game. How would you feel getting a report based on just 1 of your 8,999 games in TOTAL????

THIS COMPLAINT IS UTTER BULLOCKS

Lord Bremen, i get it your a winner and you did not win that game..but this complaint is way beyond 'proving your point". Let it go man?

THIS COMPLAINT IS UTTER BULLOCKS

ENJOY THE BOB:

[Lord_Bremen]

Eehhh? Are we still discussing this? Let's wait for 2 games minimum???? - Anything goes in just 1 game. How would you feel getting a report based on just 1 of your 8,999 games in TOTAL????

THIS COMPLAINT IS UTTER BULLOCKS

Lord Bremen, i get it your a winner and you did not win that game..but this complaint is way beyond 'proving your point". Let it go man?

Why are you getting your panties in a bunch? You're not in the tourney.

I haven't lost any games; all 5 are still in progress. The penalty for a first offense is a warning, which is entirely appropriate in this case as it was a clear suicide. I put this in to prevent him from doing it again in the other games where I'm stuck with him.

[king achilles]

I pointed out that he had no chance to win this game - losing his stacks in fact made his slim chance zero - and he insisted that he will continue this behavior.

I think this is not accurate that losing his stacks made his "slim chance" zero.

If you're in a stacking game, and you have less bonus than the other, then to keep stacking and waiting for the round limit is NOT the best strategy. It's a guaranteed loss.
The only way you win in a stacking game when you have less bonus, is if for some reason someone else start attacking.
But if we go around forbidding people to attack in no spoils round limit game, then what is it to do ?

Actually, 5 rounds before the end, is usually more or less a good time to start attacking.
Either you try to take a bonus early on.
Or if you fail to do so or choose not to, then your best bet is to stack and hope other players will fight over bonuses, making your stacking strategy a good choice.
if you decide not to take a bonus, hoping people fighting for bonus will be weaker, but then the people with bonus proceed to start stacking, then you've lost the game.
But you can only notice that after a couple of rounds, you don't notice that round 2. So usually it's clear mid game that people aren't going to fight.

The only rational choice you have is then to try to provoke action, which you should do by attacking other people.
I've personally used that strategy, coupled with chat to explain what I do and steer the game in the direction I need.

So, attacking around round 15 to make stuff happen isn't really a stupid choice. I'd say it's even almost the only choice. Because if he just wait he know 100% sure he lose the game.

I wouldn't have played it exactly the same way, but I would have try smthg as well.

I tend to agree with this post. It's just unfortunate for you that you were the one he attacked and he also probably intended to provoke everyone else to start doing something and shake things up. On the 15th round, it was a risk he chose to take than just sit and wait for the game to end. Feel free to rate him accordingly.