Ukraine unbroken three years into Putin's War

[jimboston]

January 2020
The Washington Post begins a months long smear campaign calling the idea that COVID-19 leaked from a lab racist disinformation and propaganda spread by Trump. Numerous "unnamed officials" are cited to support this story that all the mainstream media amplify.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... -research/

This Morning
Biden's Department of Energy concludes Covid leaked from a lab.

Lab Leak Was Most Likely Origin of Covid, U.S. Agency Now Says https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-orig ... k-807b7b0a

WMDs in Iraq, no lab leaks, Russian attacks on Poland ... keep lapping up what Unnamed Official is selling

Didn't US Government try to push the lab leak 'theory' right from day one?

And now are pushing it once again, coincidentally at exactly the same time they're trying to tell everyone the Chinese government is about to start supplying Russia with weapons for Ukraine. Must be the US's annual China hatefest.

wrong thread

[saxitoxin]

Bakhmut is about to fall to the Federation and NATO is repositioning their talking points! We're up to Level Ochre!

[jusplay4fun]

I do not recall anyone on CC saying any such thing. Wrong Forum, saxi, again.

[mookiemcgee]

Bakhmut is about to fall to the Federation and NATO is repositioning their talking points! We're up to Level Ochre!

would look better as Venn Diagram

[saxitoxin]

would look better as Venn Diagram

here's a quicky

[jusplay4fun]

Venn Diagram? Like this??

[karel]

russia got this war..whooot go russia,no more money to ukraine

[saxitoxin]

russia got this war..whooot go russia,no more money to ukraine

Things must be real bad as the corporate media just raised the situation to Black Alert from Ochre Alert which it was only three days ago.

• Ukrainian officials are signaling a potential retreat from the embattled town of Bakhmut, which would give Russia a symbolic victory and deliver Moscow its largest advance in months but wouldn’t significantly change the dynamic of the wider war, experts told The Hill.
  
  https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3881 ... s-retreat/

[saxitoxin]

BREAKING!

The Wagner Army is crossing the Bakhmutka River into Bakhmut! Wagner forces have left one route open for the Ukes to retreat through. All other points of egress are occupied or destroyed. Wagner officials are urging Zelenskyy to withdraw his child soldiers for the sake of humanity.

Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin, appearing in combat uniform in a video filmed on a rooftop, urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to order a retreat from Bakhmut to save his soldiers’ lives.

The camera panned to show three captured Ukrainians – a grey-bearded older man and two boys – asking to be allowed to go home. From visible buildings, Reuters determined the footage was filmed in Paraskoviivka, a village 7 km (4.3 miles) north of the centre of Bakhmut.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9525305/ukra ... er-russia/

It seems like the Ukes are throwing in the towel, ignoring orders from Washington to suicide themselves, and are fleeing.

The commander of a Ukrainian drone unit active in Bakhmut, Robert Brovdi who goes by the name “Madyar”, said in a video posted on social media that his unit had been ordered by the military to withdraw immediately from the city.

https://globalnews.ca/news/9525305/ukra ... er-russia/

[HitRed]

Hot demand
$800 each

[HitRed]

Bovingon Tank Museum brakes down tanks for Ukraine

[bigtoughralf]

The mental gymnastics required to say that invasions and war are bad because people die, but that pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict in order to prelong it is good.

[jusplay4fun]

The mental gymnastics required to say that invasions and war are bad because people die, but that pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict in order to prelong it is good.

The mental gymnastics required to say that invasions and war are bad because people die, but that pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict in order to prolong it is good....is this what you meant? Must be Tough mental gymnastics to blame, here, TOO.

NO one is saying war is good, but to allow Ukrainians to DEFEND their Homeland by providing them weapons from the invasion by a dictator is acceptable.

[Dukasaur]

The mental gymnastics required to say that invasions and war are bad because people die, but that pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict in order to prelong it is good.

That's a great oversimplification.

In an ordinary squabble between two nations, it is probably best for other nations to mind their own business and stay out of it.

When there is a megaloman bent on conquest, however, the ordinary rules don't apply. Putin has made no secret of the fact that his life's work is the restoration of the Soviet Empire, in the same way that Hitler's obsession was the restoration of the German Empire. He has already beaten up Georgia and made satellites of Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and Kirghizia. Ukraine is essentially paying the price for the fact that nobody raised a finger when Georgia was raped, in the same sense that Hitler's demands on Czechoslovakia were only made because the world did nothing when he absorbed Austria.

If Ukraine holds, Putin's reconquista essentially ends. If (as seems, unfortunately, very likely) Ukraine eventually falls, Moldovia will be absorbed soon after. Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan also, most likely. After that, Putin's road forward gets problematic. Subjugating the Baltic States is tempting, but as long as NATO solidarity is more or less intact it seems unlikely that he will overtly invade. More likely a long period of cyberwarfare and disinformation campaigns will be used to cripple their economies and political systems. If NATO members squabble amongst themselves then the sky is the limit.

In any case, holding the line in Ukraine seems like the best way to prevent this bloodthirsty KGB officer from growing his power and influence and subjugating ever more people.

And if the line does not hold, then at least Europe has had some time to rearm.

[bigtoughralf]

When Putin first got into power he tried to get Russia into NATO. Conflict between Russia and the US wasn't inevitable, it came after the US repeatedly used Russia's neighbours as places to base missiles pointed at Russia, usurped and overthrew any governments friendly to Moscow etc.

The way Putin is now hitting back in invading Ukraine is obviously unacceptable but let's not kid ourselves that his motivation is offensive. It's defensive. Giving Ukraine tanks, missiles etc is pouring fuel on a fire that the US started. If the US wanted to make conflict between Russia and its neighbours less likely, the best thing it could do is step back.

[2dimes]

Ah,yes. The old defensive invasion.

The US should have made conflict less likely by stepping back and letting Russia roll over it's neighbors like that giant rock in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[bigtoughralf]

Might've achieved more peaceful results than the usual US playbook of encircle, provoke and then blame.

You seem to be overlooking the part where Putin's leadership was peaceful and actively engaging with the West right up until the point NATO reacted to tensions between Russia and one of its neighbours by declaring it was going to admit that neighbour (Georgia). I'm pretty sure when a similar dynamic played out in reverse (Soviet-Cuba relations) the US repeatedly tried to assassinate the neighbour's president, and everyone in the West agreed that was a sensible and pragmatic response to a rival planting its flag in the US's back yard.

The only other external conflict Russia has launched since then was Ukraine, borne out of the West toppling a Russia-friendly Ukrainian government simply because it didn't want Ukraine having friendly relations with Russia.

By all means though, continue to put your faith in the geopolitical strategy of a government that has caused somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 civilian deaths across the Middle East through its policy of attacking governments that refuse to sell it their oil.

[saxitoxin]

The mental gymnastics required to say that invasions and war are bad because people die, but that pouring lethal weapons into an active conflict in order to prelong it is good.

That's a great oversimplification.

In an ordinary squabble between two nations, it is probably best for other nations to mind their own business and stay out of it.

When there is a megaloman bent on conquest, however, the ordinary rules don't apply. Putin has made no secret of the fact that his life's work is the restoration of the Soviet Empire, in the same way that Hitler's obsession was the restoration of the German Empire. He has already beaten up Georgia and made satellites of Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and Kirghizia. Ukraine is essentially paying the price for the fact that nobody raised a finger when Georgia was raped, in the same sense that Hitler's demands on Czechoslovakia were only made because the world did nothing when he absorbed Austria.

If Ukraine holds, Putin's reconquista essentially ends. If (as seems, unfortunately, very likely) Ukraine eventually falls, Moldovia will be absorbed soon after. Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan also, most likely. After that, Putin's road forward gets problematic. Subjugating the Baltic States is tempting, but as long as NATO solidarity is more or less intact it seems unlikely that he will overtly invade. More likely a long period of cyberwarfare and disinformation campaigns will be used to cripple their economies and political systems. If NATO members squabble amongst themselves then the sky is the limit.

In any case, holding the line in Ukraine seems like the best way to prevent this bloodthirsty KGB officer from growing his power and influence and subjugating ever more people.

And if the line does not hold, then at least Europe has had some time to rearm.

Putin is like 70 years old. You're talking about a decades-long scheme leading to the conquest of Europe. Russia intervened in Ukraine in 2014 and then rested for eight years before moving forward a bit. It entered Moldovan Transnistria on Yeltsin's orders in 1992 and - in 30 years - hasn't increased its whopping 1200 troops in the country. At this pace, Russian tanks will be rolling into Paris around the time the sun goes supernova.

So, either we have to admit that (a) there is no actual "threat" to Europe, or, (b) there is a threat but it doesn't originate in the fever dreams of evil Putin, but in the legitimate national concerns of Russia and its 185 million people. Once you admit to B, the angry fist pumping and illiterate cries of "Putin's war!" and "Putin's invasion!" by the Western autocrats and their war machine's propaganda arms seem a lot more insane.

[saxitoxin]

LOL, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts just rejected Zelenskyy's request to appear at the Oscars.

This guy has become the world's most overexposed attention-seeking fame whore. Dude is setting himself up for a successful post-presidency with the book and movie deals he's leveraging on the corpses of his soldiers. Surprised but grateful the Academy shut him down.

[jusplay4fun]

When Putin first got into power he tried to get Russia into NATO. Conflict between Russia and the US wasn't inevitable, it came after the US repeatedly used Russia's neighbours as places to base missiles pointed at Russia, usurped and overthrew any governments friendly to Moscow etc.

The way Putin is now hitting back in invading Ukraine is obviously unacceptable but let's not kid ourselves that his motivation is offensive. It's defensive. Giving Ukraine tanks, missiles etc is pouring fuel on a fire that the US started. If the US wanted to make conflict between Russia and its neighbours less likely, the best thing it could do is step back.

the US started.

Right, we see American tanks pouring over the border into Russia (or Ukraine). And US Missiles hitting targets in Russia. RIGHT. Keep on believing those lies saxi keeps feeding you, Ralph.

[Dukasaur]

By all means though, continue to put your faith in the geopolitical strategy of a government that has caused somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 civilian deaths across the Middle East through its policy of attacking governments that refuse to sell it their oil.

Quite often I seem to be reminding you that two wrongs don't make a right. Pointing out the crimes of the U.S. doesn't do anything to absolve crimes committed by Russia and China.

I was taught as far back as Grade One that "the other kids were doing it too" is not a valid defense.

Ah,yes. The old defensive invasion.

The US should have made conflict less likely by stepping back and letting Russia roll over it's neighbors like that giant rock in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Conflict between Russia and the US wasn't inevitable, it came after the US repeatedly used Russia's neighbours as places to base missiles pointed at Russia, usurped and overthrew any governments friendly to Moscow etc.

I don't disagree. Western wrongs have contributed to this situation.

Western humiliations of Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union have definitely fanned the flames of nationalistic resentment in Russia and led to the rise of a demagogue like Putin, in the same way that Western humiliations of Germany during and after Versailles led to the rise of Hitler. Assessing blame doesn't change the situation. Once you have a Hitler or a Putin on your hands, that fact that you share the guilt for creating him doesn't change anything. You still have to put him down.

[ConfederateSS]

-----------Big Ralf....The Middle East problems is not The U.S.A.'s fault....At the End of World War I...The U.S.A...did not par take in the land grab...Of fallen Empires....As for the Muslim Empire....The Ottoman Empire... Great Britain, France and Italy carved it up....Great Britain getting the biggest share....There as for A Majority of the Problems in The Middle East started.... Everyone there has been fighting for 1,000s of years...But the way the Map was drawn up after World War I....Great Britain shares the blame for most of the Middle East troubles....

---------- One good story about the War in Ukraine....It looks like Reporter Benjamin Hall is doing well... ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

[bigtoughralf]

By all means though, continue to put your faith in the geopolitical strategy of a government that has caused somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 civilian deaths across the Middle East through its policy of attacking governments that refuse to sell it their oil.

Quite often I seem to be reminding you that two wrongs don't make a right. Pointing out the crimes of the U.S. doesn't do anything to absolve crimes committed by Russia and China.

I was taught as far back as Grade One that "the other kids were doing it too" is not a valid defense.

I didn't say that the US Government's actions mean Putin's invasion is okay, I'm saying that the US Government's actions demonstrate its geopolitical strategy is not worthy of any respect or support.

The White House and US media have roughly the same level of credibility as the Kremlin and Russian media, and yet this thread is treating one as if it is infinitely more reliable and respectable than the other.

Look at the stance taken by Ireland's representatives in the European Parliament (Mick Wallace and Clare Daly). They have consistently taken the position that Putin's invasion is indefensible but that the US and EU response has also served to cause additional misery and conflict. Being from a country that has been a historical victim of Western imperialism clearly gives them a perspective that is sorely lacking in imperial capitals like London, Moscow or New York.

[2dimes]

So living in London eats away the good parts of your soul, but you can get a box of really great peri peri chips or vegetarian curry?

[Dukasaur]

By all means though, continue to put your faith in the geopolitical strategy of a government that has caused somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 civilian deaths across the Middle East through its policy of attacking governments that refuse to sell it their oil.

Quite often I seem to be reminding you that two wrongs don't make a right. Pointing out the crimes of the U.S. doesn't do anything to absolve crimes committed by Russia and China.

I was taught as far back as Grade One that "the other kids were doing it too" is not a valid defense.

I didn't say that the US Government's actions mean Putin's invasion is okay, I'm saying that the US Government's actions demonstrate its geopolitical strategy is not worthy of any respect or support.

I'm not saying it is.

The White House and US media have roughly the same level of credibility as the Kremlin and Russian media, and yet this thread is treating one as if it is infinitely more reliable and respectable than the other.

Now you're engaging in wild hyperbole.

The White House and the Kremlin may both be engaging in discreditable acts, but the White House faces meaningful dissent in Congress and allows open criticism of its policies while the Kremlin whips a servile Duma and jails, murders or exiles those who criticize it. That's a world of difference.

Similarly the bulk of American media may support the president's official line, but a large and visible minority in the media do not, and they do not face any punishment for their dissent. The major Russian media outlets are directly controlled either by the state or by businessmen in overt alliance with the state, and they parrot their president's lines without meaningful criticism. The tiny informal blogs and micromedia outlets in Russia face interference, censorship, and in many cases outright arrest and confiscation. Again, a world of difference.

But we digress. This thread is not about media servility. It is about the survival of Ukraine.