Re: [CL14] Clan League - Sign Ups End Sept 25th

[iAmCaffeine]

@cayman i understand your logic but in the very niche scenario we have here, it is objectively worse

who are the bottom clans getting stomped by? most recently REP and AWOL. soon LION.

so 1-2 win the 3rd div and get promoted and then what happens...?

they get stomped by the same people anyway. so they got promoted, to get shit on, to get demoted. that isn't fun.

the bottom tier clans (which is who you seem to be concerned about) are literally better in a 2 division league because then they stay in the bottom tier playing vs clans of their calibre.

all adding a middle division do is make it harder for mid-high tier clans with potential to improve, actually challenge the top 3/4/5.

if you want the clan scene to be more active, this is the area to focus. do you think ICON, AWOL, REP or LION start if they don't all believe they can contend at the top?

having a middle league where they can be stuck playing against similar clans in lots of close matches but stagnated improvement, is a massive way to discourage clans like that from starting up in the first place

CDs should be focused on what makes new competitive clans attractive to people and encourage that. i can assure you it is not getting stuck in a middle league against the same people

i've started more clans (that were actually good) and recruited more players - with and without team game experience - than anyone in the history of CC. i think i know what attracts people to the scene

it's far more attractive to be in a larger league, playing against similarly ranked and better clans, and improving

three leagues is such an anti-growth strategy it baffles me how anyone can think otherwise

[shoop76]

I remember when I was running this event everyone wanted changes, I think partly because of the dwindling number of participating clans. I gave everyone options, and though I was personally strongly against this new format, it was the one that was wanted by a large majority of clan representatives. In my point of view, there are not enough active clans to go to a 3 league format.

It does kind of make me wonder though how many reps voted for their own wishes and not those of its clan members. I see Cayman mentioning he voted for the 3 league format. I'm pretty sure this was never discussed within our clan. Not trying to pick on Cay here, just listing this as a personal example.

[i-andrei]

As groovy pointed out, this was discussed and voted on already.
This general format has been decided for over a year.
For the same reason that we did not make the switch to 3 divisions last year, we can not switch back to 2 divisions now.

This format should yield a more competitive League for most. As groovy said, there are more clans in contention for promotion/relegation as opposed to a handful that are often the same year in and year out.
If it is unpopular, we could potentially change in the future.
.

How about redo the vote now? And not wait for a full year to do changes and when you get there just have the same reverse discussion all over again?

There are some things that could change if clans quickly voted to pass through.
For a league of 3 divisions, one of which that would answer some questions would be to instead of having double round robin within the same division (2 rounds of 24 games vs 1 clan) the second round could be interdivisional with 12 games vs a clan of Division B and 12 games vs a clan of Division C. In the end you play 24 games vs each clan in your divisions, and 12 games vs each clan in the other 2 divisions. Everyone plays everyone, but you're still competing against your own division. It also makes the play-off rounds unneeded except for a 1 game playoff if the regular season matchup was a draw. This format would increase the duration of the season by 1 round in most iterations. You also might have more instances of bye rounds, either a full round bye or a half round bye in an interdivision round.

Who would actually want that? And what would be the added value? 12-0s ?

That being said, Scott should have known about the changes, the CD team did release CL13 during his time as a CD and the changes were already planned by that point. That's the whole reason the priority order was put into CL13.
NSS and Cayman both had great ideas for clans.
I really appreciated them joining the team and bringing their ideas and perspectives. I am very sad that we could not have brought more of them to fruition. Believe me, none of their ideas were ignored. Hopefully we can still make them beneficial for the future.

Hope you 3 can still be friends

[Donelladan]

How about redo the vote now? And not wait for a full year to do changes and when you get there just have the same reverse discussion all over again?

We should redo the vote based on what ? NSS and Caff disagreeing with the new format ? Seems a bit light to me.

14 people voted
10 votes for the format with 3 divisions
2 votes for the format with 2 divisions
2 No opinions

Seems like it was pretty clear cut we want to go to 3 divisions.
The clan situation didn't change much since a year ago when we had the vote.

Let's try it out and see how we like it, then discuss again.

[Donelladan]

Btw, one of the main reason why we didn't go to this 3 leagues format earlier was Caff's reasoning that it was planned for 2 leagues when they played CL12, and therefore his clan aimed at getting a final position that ensured they stayed in 1st div. Thus it was unfair to change the system.

When we played CL13 it was already agreed that we'd go to this 3 league system. Thus here again, we could have clans complain that they aimed to reach a position in the final ranking of CL13 to be in 1st, 2nd or 3rd league in CL14.

I think it was a stupid reason back then still think it's stupid, but well, if it was valid back then it is still valid now.

[i-andrei]

How about redo the vote now? And not wait for a full year to do changes and when you get there just have the same reverse discussion all over again?

We should redo the vote based on what ? NSS and Caff disagreeing with the new format ? Seems a bit light to me.

14 people voted
10 votes for the format with 3 divisions
2 votes for the format with 2 divisions
2 No opinions

Seems like it was pretty clear cut we want to go to 3 divisions.
The clan situation didn't change much since a year ago when we had the vote.

Let's try it out and see how we like it, then discuss again.

Based on the fact that you're losing interest in clan games. And still, if you have 14 clans you'll play in 2 divisions, so not sure what you voted for then.

[iAmCaffeine]

would be hilarious if enough clans chose to not participate and it ended up being 2 leagues instead

meanwhile Don acting like nothing has changed in the clan scene in the last 2yrs

[Donelladan]

Based on the fact that you're losing interest in clan games. And still, if you have 14 clans you'll play in 2 divisions, so not sure what you voted for then.

That's exactly the reason why we're making the change, thus I fail to see how that'd be a reason NOT to make the change at the same time.
You can't correlate losing interest in clan games with the new format, since people are already losing interest.


@Caff we voted on May 2021, so it's just a bit more than a year ago.
And no I don't think there were such massive changes in the clan scene that we should go back on a decision we made one year ago.

[iAmCaffeine]

i just have no idea how this is a good idea and i've see no reasoning as to how it is

[Keefie]

i just have no idea how this is a good idea and i've see no reasoning as to how it is

There are rules too, WOW this is cool.

[Doc_Brown]

I agree with Don here. We voted on this already. The way it was going to work seemed pretty clear back then (certainly I'm not the least bit surprised by any of this). It passed overwhelmingly. It's too late to change it for CL14. At this point, without any chance to see how it goes, I wouldn't even vote to revert to the old system for CL15 - though that could change part way through. We played CL13 knowing exactly how the promotion and relegation was going to work. Caf argued strongly a bit over a year ago that we should not change anything about the seeding or divisions of CL13 because it was already set in stone when CL12 was played. The same argument applies here. Unless you wish to say you were wrong at that time, Caf?

[Nut Shot Scott]

It's a pointless discussion. And it's absolute idiocy to think that this is a good idea but whatever. It wasnt a good idea then. It isnt now. 20 teams? Maybe. 15? Gtfo.

Keep citing a vote that has no weight. Explain the actual situation again and see who agrees. The whole "we know how it was" argument is foolishness. I'm not arguing anything thay benefits my clan - as I see it we are 2nd division no matter what still.

Who here is doing anything to try to bring new players into clans? Where has the growth strategy been here? Where are new competitions? Where are the programs designed to bring new clans in? Where are the creations designed to bring some new interest into this thing? This is the best idea you have come up with and it took years to develop? Laughably bad. I don't care anymore.

How about this - top 10 clans in D400 come play in C-LIV instead. I'll give out credits to winning clans and players each week, we'll have a real league with teams who want to be competitive, tweak a rule here or there and you can all have your rec league to play around with.

Everyone else plays second division C-LIV. You get into upper by cracking top 10 in D400. No other requirement or dumb shit promotions like bringing DBD into the upper division until they deserve it and want it. I want everyone to have a good time and compete with the teams they deserve and want to compete with. Simple as that.

[iAmCaffeine]

Caf argued strongly a bit over a year ago that we should not change anything about the seeding or divisions of CL13 because it was already set in stone when CL12 was played. The same argument applies here. Unless you wish to say you were wrong at that time, Caf?

if you think both situations are the same then i'm not gonna bother answering lol

2-3 clans earn promotion to 1st div. then after the fact, rules would've changed saying "you earned it but now you cant play top div"

obviously not fair

how would changing from 3 divs to 2 here have a similar effect on anyone?

decided i would explain since you'll post something stupid like "there's no difference" if i didnt

[rockfist]

TOFU has no desire to play clans from Division 3. Nothing against them as people, but when we've sat out a year and had to play Division 2 it was not very challenging.

The three tier format eliminates the 1 or 2 teams that make D1 and get destroyed by the top 3-4 clans in D1. Its not fun for them and it can skew the results because clan A beats last place clan 23-1 and clan B beats last place clan 18-6. yet clan B beats clan A 14-10, but splits the points with them and the tiebreaker goes in favor of clan A.

[MTIceman41]

TOFU has no desire to play clans from Division 3. Nothing against them as people, but when we've sat out a year and had to play Division 2 it was not very challenging.

The three tier format eliminates the 1 or 2 teams that make D1 and get destroyed by the top 3-4 clans in D1. Its not fun for them and it can skew the results because clan A beats last place clan 23-1 and clan B beats last place clan 18-6. yet clan B beats clan A 14-10, but splits the points with them and the tiebreaker goes in favor of clan A.

3 tier system
Tier 2 has S&M, REP, awol, Lions…
You could argue that tier 2 with those 4 could best fall, ascension, LHDD, tofu right?
What was the S&M vs tofu score again?

3 divisions are messy

[rockfist]

So S&M is going to be the Hard Carry?

It was lopsided, perhaps they culled some of the dead weight?

[MTIceman41]

So S&M is going to be the Hard Carry?

It was lopsided, perhaps they culled some of the dead weight?

Beat you and Josko 4/4 times so what was the dead weight?

You could be honest and say they were motivated, you were not.
They had some dice luck and breaks sure…
I think you need to lift more


But you made my case: why would division 1 and 2 be so close yet separated???
Makes more since for 2 divisions newbies work their way into Div 1

[rockfist]

No S&M is way above any of you, yet if they don’t get into the top division in a three tiered system it is their fault for not performing better in CL. They will annihilate all of you.

Practice? We talking about practice? Congratulations, now beat me when it counts and then come and talk to me. You have a losing record against me on clan W2.1 which you claim is your best map and you are 1-5 in Quads.

[JPlo64]

To clarify something, A 16 clan league would have 6 clans in Premier. Thus, 16 signed up clans would move S&M into Premier.

[MTIceman41]

No S&M is way above any of you, yet if they don’t get into the top division in a three tiered system it is their fault for not performing better in CL. They will annihilate all of you.

Practice? We talking about practice? Congratulations, now beat me when it counts and then come and talk to me. You have a losing record against me on clan W2.1 which you claim is your best map and you are 1-5 in Quads.

Haha that’s the rock we need to see…I could beat you anytime you want a poly match that is…non teammates…let’s go

[MTIceman41]

To clarify something, A 16 clan league would have 6 clans in Premier. Thus, 16 signed up clans would move S&M into Premier.

Is if it’s 14 or 15 clans they go to secondary league? Seems strange

[IcePack]

To clarify something, A 16 clan league would have 6 clans in Premier. Thus, 16 signed up clans would move S&M into Premier.

Is if it’s 14 or 15 clans they go to secondary league? Seems strange

Division Size:
If 14 or less clans sign-up, we will have two divisions.
If 15 or more clans sign-up, we will have three divisions.

[MTIceman41]

To clarify something, A 16 clan league would have 6 clans in Premier. Thus, 16 signed up clans would move S&M into Premier.

Is if it’s 14 or 15 clans they go to secondary league? Seems strange

Division Size:
If 14 or less clans sign-up, we will have two divisions.
If 15 or more clans sign-up, we will have three divisions.

Yes strange

[JPlo64]

To clarify something, A 16 clan league would have 6 clans in Premier. Thus, 16 signed up clans would move S&M into Premier.

Is if it’s 14 or 15 clans they go to secondary league? Seems strange

Division Size:
If 14 or less clans sign-up, we will have two divisions.
If 15 or more clans sign-up, we will have three divisions.

Yes strange

Not really strange at all.
It's always been the case that placement can depend on sign-ups.
The design of this format is that we have 5-7 clans per division.
14 = 7 ; 7
15 = 5 ; 5 ; 5
16 = 6 ; 5 ; 5
...
Any number of clans will yield groupings of 5-7.

The smaller groupings is to better represent the "levels"/"tiers" of clans.

In the current landscape, if you were to separate the clans into tiers, there would, without question be 3+.
In the past when we had more clans, You could separate into 4+.

Generally these groupings find themselves in ranges around the size of 5-7.

[Doc_Brown]

It's kind of funny that the only arrangement that keeps S&M out of 1st division is if we have exactly 15 clans sign up!