[CL13] Clan League 13 - Main Thread - Completed

[IcePack]

In game #21351735 pmul missed his turn intentionally to gain an advantage his following turn. He had 5 spoils at the time he missed his turn. He took his turns in two other games in the same time frame that he missed. And he did gain an advantage eliminating Tenacious D. Is this a violation?

At this time, we see no infraction here.

Can you clarify that you don’t see an infraction here, but it is against the rules to miss turns on purpose. Or you don’t see an infraction because what they did was ok?

The rules seems to indicate what he’s being accused of is against the rules (I haven’t looked at the game or evidence tbh) so I assume it’s more of “we don’t see it was missed intentionally to warrant an infraction” ?

[Doc_Brown]

I was curious and went looking through pmul's games. Game 21351735 is the game in question. His missed turn expired at 3:22am (CCT) on 12/26. I found two incidences of turns taken during the window of 3:22am on 12/25 to 3:22am on 12/26: Game 21306919 with a turn taken at 1:51pm on 12/25 and Game 21128456 with a turn taken at 4:48pm on 12/25. I think it's really tough to make a clear case that this was an intentionally missed turn.

[Sea Devil]

Clandemonium when played with these settings is a stacking game. Pmul was the one being stacked. He missed his turn when he had 5 spoils so he was not forced to cash and his team mates dropped on him giving him a big stack the following turn, which changed the outcome of the game. There were 2 games that he took turns in the time frame. If this tactic is allowed then it is something that will be used more frequently in the future. And why do we have sitters??

[iAmCaffeine]

no worries Sea Devil, looks like we have a new strategy of playing as many stack and rush maps as possible. and according to CDs, it's fine.

[Fewnix]

Can this thread be closed please.

[i-andrei]

Can this thread be closed please.

Why close it?
I still got an open question

[Lindax]

In game #21351735 pmul missed his turn intentionally to gain an advantage his following turn. He had 5 spoils at the time he missed his turn. He took his turns in two other games in the same time frame that he missed. And he did gain an advantage eliminating Tenacious D. Is this a violation?

At this time, we see no infraction here.

Can you clarify that you don’t see an infraction here, but it is against the rules to miss turns on purpose. Or you don’t see an infraction because what they did was ok?

The rules seems to indicate what he’s being accused of is against the rules (I haven’t looked at the game or evidence tbh) so I assume it’s more of “we don’t see it was missed intentionally to warrant an infraction” ?

We had this discussion in TOFU recently and I could not find anything in writing on the site that says "intentionally missing a turn" is against the rules.

It is also virtually impossible to prove the "intentionally", unless the person admits to it.

Lx

[Mad777]

For rules there is links at the bottom of the page besides the policy.

https://www.conquerclub.com/public.php?mode=rules

[IcePack]

In game #21351735 pmul missed his turn intentionally to gain an advantage his following turn. He had 5 spoils at the time he missed his turn. He took his turns in two other games in the same time frame that he missed. And he did gain an advantage eliminating Tenacious D. Is this a violation?

At this time, we see no infraction here.

Can you clarify that you don’t see an infraction here, but it is against the rules to miss turns on purpose. Or you don’t see an infraction because what they did was ok?

The rules seems to indicate what he’s being accused of is against the rules (I haven’t looked at the game or evidence tbh) so I assume it’s more of “we don’t see it was missed intentionally to warrant an infraction” ?

We had this discussion in TOFU recently and I could not find anything in writing on the site that says "intentionally missing a turn" is against the rules.

It is also virtually impossible to prove the "intentionally", unless the person admits to it.

Lx

OP, under rules and infractions spoiler, third bullet point. Though I agree the intentional part is hard to prove it is listed as a rule: (which is why I asked for clarification)

Rules:
- All the CC and Clan rules will be in effect, unless stated otherwise in this post.
- There will be no 12 hour Fog of War rule in effect. Clans can decide between them if they want to apply it. There will be no enforcement by the TO's.
- Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited.

[Donelladan]

Intentional miss turn was deemed illegal in previous CL events.

Clandemonium when played with these settings is a stacking game. Pmul was the one being stacked. He missed his turn when he had 5 spoils so he was not forced to cash and his team mates dropped on him giving him a big stack the following turn, which changed the outcome of the game. There were 2 games that he took turns in the time frame. If this tactic is allowed then it is something that will be used more frequently in the future. And why do we have sitters??

I'm curious on how missing a turn was better than not taking the 5th card in this case.
If green didn't miss a turn he would have had +3 auto deploy and an extra +4 troops on his stack at the beginning of his turn when he went for the kill, since green went to the kill right after his miss.
Alternatively they could have stacked the last player of the team to go instead of the first player.

Therefore I fail to see how missing a turn was a good option to achieve what they did.

[rockfist]

Given it was over Christmas, unless he admits to it I don't know that I could be convinced it was intentional. If this player or team had a pattern of doing this I might be persuaded, but baring that I don't think so.

But I am not one of the judges here. Just someone who has played a lot of clan games over the years.

[Sea Devil]

Intentional miss turn was deemed illegal in previous CL events.

Clandemonium when played with these settings is a stacking game. Pmul was the one being stacked. He missed his turn when he had 5 spoils so he was not forced to cash and his team mates dropped on him giving him a big stack the following turn, which changed the outcome of the game. There were 2 games that he took turns in the time frame. If this tactic is allowed then it is something that will be used more frequently in the future. And why do we have sitters??

I'm curious on how missing a turn was better than not taking the 5th card in this case.
If green didn't miss a turn he would have had +3 auto deploy and an extra +4 troops on his stack at the beginning of his turn when he went for the kill, since green went to the kill right after his miss.
Alternatively they could have stacked the last player of the team to go instead of the first player.

Therefore I fail to see how missing a turn was a good option to achieve what they did.

Green was the one being stacked. It was his turn and he had 5 spoils, so he had to cash and would have been the first one to cash getting 4 troops. Green misses his turn. Red and Blue then cash adding to Green's stack. Greens next turn, he gets 15 troops thus taking out one of his opponents and gaining an advantage from his missed turn. I just want clarification if this tactic is allowed or not. If it is allowed then I will use this in the future and lesson learned.If it's not allowed then it is considered cheating and abuse.

[Donelladan]

I meant - rather than missing a turn he could have decided not to take the 5th cards. Why would he rather miss a turn ?

[Doc_Brown]

I think the key point is that while intentionally skipping turns is not permitted, you have to prove that this was an intentional miss. The turns he took were 13 hours and 11 hours before this turn was due. With it being Christmas, a miss could have occurred for completely innocent reasons.

[Nut Shot Scott]

Given it was over Christmas, unless he admits to it I don't know that I could be convinced it was intentional. If this player or team had a pattern of doing this I might be persuaded, but baring that I don't think so.

i think that about sums it up.

[JPlo64]

In game #21351735 pmul missed his turn intentionally to gain an advantage his following turn. He had 5 spoils at the time he missed his turn. He took his turns in two other games in the same time frame that he missed. And he did gain an advantage eliminating Tenacious D. Is this a violation?

At this time, we see no infraction here.

Can you clarify that you don’t see an infraction here, but it is against the rules to miss turns on purpose. Or you don’t see an infraction because what they did was ok?

The rules seems to indicate what he’s being accused of is against the rules (I haven’t looked at the game or evidence tbh) so I assume it’s more of “we don’t see it was missed intentionally to warrant an infraction” ?

We had this discussion in TOFU recently and I could not find anything in writing on the site that says "intentionally missing a turn" is against the rules.

It is also virtually impossible to prove the "intentionally", unless the person admits to it.

Lx

I agree with Lindax.

The only argument is to claim
(A) That intentionally missing a turn is Game Abuse
and
(B) The missed turn was intentional

As stated, (B) is near impossible to prove.
You can't prove intentional missing based only on game activity.
In my own experience, I have played maybe 20+ turns in a row, skipped one, with intention to come back and take it, than forgot and missed. This I have done multiple times.
Even with the difficulty of proving (B), I'm not overwhelmingly convinced of (A).

[IcePack]

In game #21351735 pmul missed his turn intentionally to gain an advantage his following turn. He had 5 spoils at the time he missed his turn. He took his turns in two other games in the same time frame that he missed. And he did gain an advantage eliminating Tenacious D. Is this a violation?

At this time, we see no infraction here.

Can you clarify that you don’t see an infraction here, but it is against the rules to miss turns on purpose. Or you don’t see an infraction because what they did was ok?

The rules seems to indicate what he’s being accused of is against the rules (I haven’t looked at the game or evidence tbh) so I assume it’s more of “we don’t see it was missed intentionally to warrant an infraction” ?

We had this discussion in TOFU recently and I could not find anything in writing on the site that says "intentionally missing a turn" is against the rules.

It is also virtually impossible to prove the "intentionally", unless the person admits to it.

Lx

I agree with Lindax.

The only argument is to claim
(A) That intentionally missing a turn is Game Abuse
and
(B) The missed turn was intentional

As stated, (B) is near impossible to prove.
You can't prove intentional missing based only on game activity.
In my own experience, I have played maybe 20+ turns in a row, skipped one, with intention to come back and take it, than forgot and missed. This I have done multiple times.
Even with the difficulty of proving (B), I'm not overwhelmingly convinced of (A).

A is written into the rules of Clan League in the OP? So seems like it shouldn’t be hard to be convinced it’s against the rules / abuse when there’s a rule about intentionally missing turns for the event?

Agreed on B, but this is why I asked for clarification above on the originally ruling / statement.

[iAmCaffeine]

Can this thread be closed please.

are you stupid?

[Lindax]

A is written into the rules of Clan League in the OP? So seems like it shouldn’t be hard to be convinced it’s against the rules / abuse when there’s a rule about intentionally missing turns for the event?

Agreed on B, but this is why I asked for clarification above on the originally ruling / statement.

Maybe I'm missing something. I cannot find anything about intentionally missing a turn in this rule:

- Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited.

Lx

[IcePack]

Misunderstood what’s going on, my bad. Reread everything n realized my mistake

[Extreme Ways]

Misunderstood what’s going on, my bad. Reread everything n realized my mistake

Intentional miss is still game abuse, but it's near impossible to prove the miss was intentional. Missing cards on purpose is easier to prove, and while unintentionally running out of time might still happen, it's not something that happens a lot.

[Sea Devil]

A rule that cannot be enforced or will not be enforced is worthless.
And for what reason then do we have sitters?

[Jdsizzleslice]

A rule that cannot be enforced or will not be enforced is worthless.
And for what reason then do we have sitters?

Because missing a singular turn is completely different from missing days of turns (multiple).

[JPlo64]

The bottom 3 of Premier Division and the top 3 of Second Division have been decided and we will have our playoff matches start Next Sunday June 5th.
PM's to the participating clans contacts this weekend.

Premier Bottom 3:
S&M
LOW
DBD

Second Top 3:
REP
AWOL
RET

So our matches will be:
S&M vs REP
AWOL vs LOW
DBD vs RET

[fishydance]

The bottom 3 of Premier Division and the top 3 of Second Division have been decided and we will have our playoff matches start Next Sunday May 28th.
PM's to the participating clans contacts this weekend.

Premier Bottom 3:
S&M
LOW
DBD

Second Top 3:
REP
AWOL
RET

So our matches will be:
S&M vs REP
AWOL vs LOW
DBD vs RET

What date does it start, you list today