Jamaica map - retirement

[Doc_Brown]

Here is a complete list of every comment from that thread about changing the map name (excluding the ones addressing the assumed motivations of those that were believed to be opposed to a name change):

Spoiler

It could at least be renamed or rebranded. The map is clearly set in colonial era, pre-emancipation Jamaica, but that isn't acknowledged anywhere and the map is simply labelled as 'Jamaica'. Other historic maps generally state somewhere that they are maps relating to a specific time period, on the map itself if not in the map's name. There's a lot more to Jamaica than the fact it was a slave colony hundreds of years ago. You wouldn't have a map that depicts the Celtic rebellion against the Romans and just call it 'England'.

Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.

Honestly, would be a good change. It's not out of place in maps like 1914 Europe, Napo Europe, FNA, 1883 Transsib etc. I dont think such a change is required but if the map were to be designed now I'd certainly propose the change.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.

This seems to be a good idea.

I don't think changing the name is quite enough.

I agree with Compalomp and others.

I would agree with you that renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica is a pretty no regrets move to contextualize the time period the map is based on and would even understand the desire to remove such a symbol from the map as it has the potential to offend someone.

In this particular instance I only see a benefit to renaming the map as "Colonial Jamaica", "Jamaica XXXX" (insert date here), or something similar, and perhaps even adding some contextualising text to describe the map. I'm not personally offended by any of it without the name change, and I think it is a bit ridiculous to be offended by it, but I don't need to be offended to believe that the change warrants some merit. For me the name "Colonial Jamaica" is more precise than "Jamaica". I like precision. If we can improve the precision of a title, well that is all the argument I need.

There is no offense in the maps name and changing it to better reflect what it represents is a good choice. That is not the same as someone being offended by something and demanding it be changed.

My summary is that the only people expressing opposition to the name change were offended by the map in general and would probably rather it be retired than just have a name change. Apart from mrswdk, the rest of the comments appear to basically say, "sure, a name change is probably a good thing but isn't required."
Since renaming the map is off the table, I suspect if you open a poll, you would find overwhelming opposition to retiring the map.

[Extreme Ways]

/Thread

[.SCuD.]

Nice, from Doc.

Is it not just the actual map itself and the imagery that can't be changed? We can still change the listing title to "Jamaica - Colonial Era" or something similar? That way it at least shows up with that name when in your game list. Nothing will be changed beyond that, but if that can be done I can only see that as beneficial.

'Jamaica - Colonial Era' would be my choice for relisting, simply as it retains alphabetical position and doesn't sideswipe anyone who is looking for it.

Here is a complete list of every comment from that thread about changing the map name (excluding the ones addressing the assumed motivations of those that were believed to be opposed to a name change):

Spoiler

It could at least be renamed or rebranded. The map is clearly set in colonial era, pre-emancipation Jamaica, but that isn't acknowledged anywhere and the map is simply labelled as 'Jamaica'. Other historic maps generally state somewhere that they are maps relating to a specific time period, on the map itself if not in the map's name. There's a lot more to Jamaica than the fact it was a slave colony hundreds of years ago. You wouldn't have a map that depicts the Celtic rebellion against the Romans and just call it 'England'.

Sounds like we are all agreed to rename the 'Jamaica' map to 'Colonial Jamaica'.

Honestly, would be a good change. It's not out of place in maps like 1914 Europe, Napo Europe, FNA, 1883 Transsib etc. I dont think such a change is required but if the map were to be designed now I'd certainly propose the change.

Yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that assessment.

This seems to be a good idea.

I don't think changing the name is quite enough.

I agree with Compalomp and others.

I would agree with you that renaming the map to Colonial Jamaica is a pretty no regrets move to contextualize the time period the map is based on and would even understand the desire to remove such a symbol from the map as it has the potential to offend someone.

In this particular instance I only see a benefit to renaming the map as "Colonial Jamaica", "Jamaica XXXX" (insert date here), or something similar, and perhaps even adding some contextualising text to describe the map. I'm not personally offended by any of it without the name change, and I think it is a bit ridiculous to be offended by it, but I don't need to be offended to believe that the change warrants some merit. For me the name "Colonial Jamaica" is more precise than "Jamaica". I like precision. If we can improve the precision of a title, well that is all the argument I need.

There is no offense in the maps name and changing it to better reflect what it represents is a good choice. That is not the same as someone being offended by something and demanding it be changed.

My summary is that the only people expressing opposition to the name change were offended by the map in general and would probably rather it be retired than just have a name change. Apart from mrswdk, the rest of the comments appear to basically say, "sure, a name change is probably a good thing but isn't required."
Since renaming the map is off the table, I suspect if you open a poll, you would find overwhelming opposition to retiring the map.

[mrswdk]

Team CC would apparently rather do absolutely nothing and just leave everyone to talk about. My guess is that regardless of what gets discussed in this thread absolutely zero will happen with the map, same as every other Suggestions thread.

[i-andrei]

So exactly how many people want this map retired?
I know I don't. As for the name change, I couldn't care less.
It's pretty obvius from the design and the ships depicted there that it's from the colonial era.

Going further on this, you should retire every map that's not current and doesn't have a description on it or it's not dated.

WTF?

[Jdsizzleslice]

Temper tantrums from the few should not dictate future decisions.

[Nut Shot Scott]

Temper tantrums from the few should not dictate future decisions.

This.

[mrswdk]

I mean this was all already discussed ad nauseum in GD and the thread concluded and closed by the mods. This thread isn't a place to thrash out a yes/no decision, it's to highlight that the decision has already been agreed upon.

It has then become a thread for Team CC to shit all over the idea because they don't have the capacity or capability to actually do anything about it, as per.

[Doc_Brown]

Your original request was to rename the map in both the database and the map artwork. There was a lack of opposition (not at all enthusiastic support) to changing the name of the map. The response was largely that such a change would be fine but wasn't necessary.
The map image can't be changed without completely remaking it from scratch. That's not an issue of the CC Team failing to execute on something everyone wants - it's simply an impossibility. The name of the map could be changed in the database. Are you now requesting this change specifically? It's the only available option for which you can point to anything resembling support. If this is your request, please clarify that in the original post.

Currently your request appears to be retirement of the map. There is significant opposition to this request and only one other post I've seen in support of this suggestion. Since the thread is currently titled "Jamaica map - retirement" and there is significant opposition to retiring the map, it's silly to claim that Team CC is "shitting all over the idea" or that "the decision has already been agreed upon."

[mrswdk]

The name of the map could be changed in the database. Are you now requesting this change specifically?

That was my original suggestion and the suggestion the thread in GC settled on. Why do you think I said it would only take a second? No one mentioned the map art until you/Duk started discussing it.

It would be better to change the map art as well, but apparently CC is too business-incontinent to keep its own copy of the maps that make up the entirety of its business so a database name change will have to do.

Currently your request appears to be retirement of the map.

Because everyone shat all over the name change idea.

[Doc_Brown]

The name of the map could be changed in the database. Are you now requesting this change specifically?

That was my original suggestion and the suggestion the thread in GC settled on. Why do you think I said it would only take a second? No one mentioned the map art until you/Duk started discussing it.
It would be better to change the map art as well, but apparently CC is too business-incontinent to keep its own copy of the maps that make up the entirety of its business so a database name change will have to do.

Currently your request appears to be retirement of the map.

Because everyone shat all over the name change idea.

Thank you for the attempt at clarification. In the third post of this thread, you clearly stated that you wanted both the database and artwork changed. Once it became clear that the artwork could not be changed (no one argued against changing the name in the database), you changed your request to retirement of the map. Now that there is pushback on that, it seems you're changing your request back to a simple name change in the database, though the title of the thread is still "Jamaica map - retirement," so apparently not.

For a suggestion to be seriously considered by the CC Team, three things are needed:
1. Clearly defined proposal (you've bounced around on what you're requesting so many times, I have no idea what the current actual suggestion is)
2. A proposal that can be feasibly implemented (a change to the map name in the artwork, which you stated was part of your intent with the original suggestion, fails this criterion)
3. Broad support from the community (there is moderate support for a name change, but you've falsely claimed that support to be motivation to retire the map)

If you can't be arsed to update your proposal with a feasible option that might actually gain support from the community, why should anyone on the CC Team pay any attention?

[mrswdk]

Do you actually have any capacity to change the name in the database or are you just arguing the toss?

[Doc_Brown]

Just trying to be helpful and provide clarity.

[Extreme Ways]

Doc absolutely wins this thread like he wins threads in the TOFU subforum.

Also, I doubt Team CC has any power over this. Seems like just another attempt at trolling.

[mrswdk]

I doubt Team CC has any power over this.

You don't think the people who run this website have any control over its content?

[Extreme Ways]

I doubt Team CC has any power over this.

You don't think the people who run this website have any control over its content?

the volunteers? Maybe people like Mad, maybe IcePack in the past. Perhaps Benga nowadays. In general? No.

[mrswdk]

So the Suggestions forum is monitored by people who have no ability to action any of the Suggestions anyway?

[.SCuD.]

Doc absolutely wins this thread like he wins threads in the TOFU subforum.

Also, I doubt Team CC has any power over this. Seems like just another attempt at trolling.

I forgot how articulate Doc can be. That was enjoyable reading.

Nothing more to add. Covered perfectly.

[Dukasaur]

So the Suggestions forum is monitored by people who have no ability to action any of the Suggestions anyway?

In short, yes.

[mrswdk]

So the Suggestions forum is monitored by people who have no ability to action any of the Suggestions anyway?

In short, yes.

This should be pinned to the top of the forum.

[riskllama]

So the Suggestions forum is monitored by people who have no ability to action any of the Suggestions anyway?

In short, yes.

This should be pinned to the top of the forum.

lol, that's actually not a bad idea - perhaps you should start a new suggs thread detailing it?

[betiko]

TL, DR
shut up mrswdk

[Fewnix]

I have played the map a few times and always felt uncomfortable with taking slaves. Would vote to retire the map

[GoranZ]

I have played the map a few times and always felt uncomfortable with taking slaves. Would vote to retire the map

And Argentinians are uncomfortable in playing 1982, Iranians in Alexander's Empire, Austrians and Hungarians in Austro-Hungarian Empire, bunch of people from various nations are uncomfortable in playing all various WWI and WWII maps we have, and even those from Yugoslavia(that should be me) are not be comfortable in playing that map.
Grow up, we are not here to play on maps that are made up from cherry picked elements from history. Its as close as it can get to what happened

[riskllama]

I have played the map a few times and always felt uncomfortable with taking slaves. Would vote to retire the map

And Argentinians are uncomfortable in playing 1982, Iranians in Alexander's Empire, Austrians and Hungarians in Austro-Hungarian Empire, bunch of people from various nations are uncomfortable in playing all various WWI and WWII maps we have, and even those from Yugoslavia(that should be me) are not be comfortable in playing that map.
Grow up, we are not here to play on maps that are made up from cherry picked elements from history. Its as close as it can get to what happened

bad enough CC won't allow the swastika to be displayed on it's selection of WWII maps...