[CC9] Conqueror's Cup IX - Main Thread - 1. LHDD 2. FOED

[Jdsizzleslice]

If you beat TOP you'd get that chance regardless.

He made a new clan - ICON.

[rockfist]

And he didn't even try to recruit me...I feel so unloved.

[iAmCaffeine]

I also meant just me, alone, vs TOFU. I think I'm getting deja vu.

[Donelladan]

How is the matter going to be handled ?
If TOFU has to play someone else, it should be decided quite fast ( like in a week or so ) imo.
Is it being discussed by the CD behind the scene ?
Should we open a topic/vote in CDF ?

I personally said I wouldn't mind to see LOW ( or any other clans that already has one defeat) to win the cup, if it is decided to pick someone else to face TOFU.
But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

[Lindax]

How is the matter going to be handled ?
If TOFU has to play someone else, it should be decided quite fast ( like in a week or so ) imo.
Is it being discussed by the CD behind the scene ?
Should we open a topic/vote in CDF ?

I personally said I wouldn't mind to see LOW ( or any other clans that already has one defeat) to win the cup, if it is decided to pick someone else to face TOFU.
But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

As it stands right now, TOFU is in the next round. As I have stated before, as the TO I would not have a problem if another clan plays TOFU. In which case LOW is the logical candidate for me. It would not be obligatory though, or in other words, both clans would do that voluntarily. And yes, that decision would have to be made pretty soon.

Historically, when a clan has dropped out of a major tournament, their future opponents have been given a bye. Perhaps there is a better way to handle this, but I'm not convinced. Should there be any exceptions to the "single elimination" aspect of the tournament? I would argue that this is a larger question that concerns more clans than just TOFU and LOW. I think before we make changes to the tournament on the fly, and in a way that another clan might feel unfairly benefits a single clan with a second chance, we should open it up for a general discussion about how to handle such cases in the future. Clan League has a very explicit rule allowing clans to leave the event midway through. I think the only way to be fair to all the other clans in CC9 is to let existing results stand and open up alternative means of handling drop-outs in the CAT for a vote prior to CCX.

This is the first time ever someone dropped of CCup, so don't make a case that historically there were given byes when that have never happened.
Or do you recall that it happened? If so, when?

I know for sure it happened in CC7 when TOP dropped out. Their opponent went on to the next round. I think that was PACK.

Lx

[josko.ri]

How is the matter going to be handled ?
If TOFU has to play someone else, it should be decided quite fast ( like in a week or so ) imo.
Is it being discussed by the CD behind the scene ?
Should we open a topic/vote in CDF ?

I personally said I wouldn't mind to see LOW ( or any other clans that already has one defeat) to win the cup, if it is decided to pick someone else to face TOFU.
But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

As it stands right now, TOFU is in the next round. As I have stated before, as the TO I would not have a problem if another clan plays TOFU. In which case LOW is the logical candidate for me. It would not be obligatory though, or in other words, both clans would do that voluntarily. And yes, that decision would have to be made pretty soon.

Historically, when a clan has dropped out of a major tournament, their future opponents have been given a bye. Perhaps there is a better way to handle this, but I'm not convinced. Should there be any exceptions to the "single elimination" aspect of the tournament? I would argue that this is a larger question that concerns more clans than just TOFU and LOW. I think before we make changes to the tournament on the fly, and in a way that another clan might feel unfairly benefits a single clan with a second chance, we should open it up for a general discussion about how to handle such cases in the future. Clan League has a very explicit rule allowing clans to leave the event midway through. I think the only way to be fair to all the other clans in CC9 is to let existing results stand and open up alternative means of handling drop-outs in the CAT for a vote prior to CCX.

This is the first time ever someone dropped of CCup, so don't make a case that historically there were given byes when that have never happened.
Or do you recall that it happened? If so, when?

I know for sure it happened in CC7 when TOP dropped out. Their opponent went on to the next round. I think that was PACK.

Lx

When TOP dropped out it was round 1, so nothing else could have been done anyway.

[Doc_Brown]

But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

As far as I've seen, it's really only Josko questioning this.

Let me go ahead and put an end to this. TOFU declines to play a substitute in this round. We were notified more than a week ago that our war was canceled and we would be receiving a bye. At that time, we accelerated the schedule with A^ since our calendar was wide open. We're really not sure it sets a good precedent to give any clan a second chance in a single-elimination tournament, though we're more than happy to debate this for future CC tournaments in the CAT forum.

[Lindax]

How is the matter going to be handled ?
If TOFU has to play someone else, it should be decided quite fast ( like in a week or so ) imo.
Is it being discussed by the CD behind the scene ?
Should we open a topic/vote in CDF ?

I personally said I wouldn't mind to see LOW ( or any other clans that already has one defeat) to win the cup, if it is decided to pick someone else to face TOFU.
But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

As it stands right now, TOFU is in the next round. As I have stated before, as the TO I would not have a problem if another clan plays TOFU. In which case LOW is the logical candidate for me. It would not be obligatory though, or in other words, both clans would do that voluntarily. And yes, that decision would have to be made pretty soon.

Historically, when a clan has dropped out of a major tournament, their future opponents have been given a bye. Perhaps there is a better way to handle this, but I'm not convinced. Should there be any exceptions to the "single elimination" aspect of the tournament? I would argue that this is a larger question that concerns more clans than just TOFU and LOW. I think before we make changes to the tournament on the fly, and in a way that another clan might feel unfairly benefits a single clan with a second chance, we should open it up for a general discussion about how to handle such cases in the future. Clan League has a very explicit rule allowing clans to leave the event midway through. I think the only way to be fair to all the other clans in CC9 is to let existing results stand and open up alternative means of handling drop-outs in the CAT for a vote prior to CCX.

This is the first time ever someone dropped of CCup, so don't make a case that historically there were given byes when that have never happened.
Or do you recall that it happened? If so, when?

I know for sure it happened in CC7 when TOP dropped out. Their opponent went on to the next round. I think that was PACK.

Lx

When TOP dropped out it was round 1, so nothing else could have been done anyway.

TOP had a first round bye. PACK beat EGAD in round 1, then jumped to round 3 to play S&M. Your idea could have applied there too, for round 2: "Let them play the best achieved clan among losers of Round 1". That did not happen. I 'd say that's a precedent. There may be more, I didn't check.

Anyway, TOFU doesn't think it's a good idea to play another clan, so case closed.

Lx

[Leehar]

But I don't think it's meaningful to make TOFU plays another clan. It seems perfectly logical to me that if their opponent withdraw they go to the next round without having to fight anyone.
I am actually surprised we are questioning it.

As far as I've seen, it's really only Josko questioning this.

Let me go ahead and put an end to this. TOFU declines to play a substitute in this round. We were notified more than a week ago that our war was canceled and we would be receiving a bye. At that time, we accelerated the schedule with A^ since our calendar was wide open. We're really not sure it sets a good precedent to give any clan a second chance in a single-elimination tournament, though we're more than happy to debate this for future CC tournaments in the CAT forum.

Looks more like Tofu already lost to us in CLX, so too scared to face us in the cup.

#TrollingFTW

[torres44cm]

Unfortunately SOH had to pull out of CC9.

This means that TOFU goes through to the next round.

Lx

Why SoH pulled out?

Can you give a wild card to quarterfinals instead of SoH, maybe reward the Clan who lost Round 16 match with the lowest margin?

Giving bye to TOFU seems as the worst possible solution IMO.

Hey all CC9 clans and TD, before I explain what happened to SoH, My apologize to all involved with CC9, as it is not SoH's characteristic, nor desire to quite, abandon any war or league tourney. It truly sickens me that we had to pull out of CC9 and the chaotic mess this has caused for all involved with CC9. So with all the chat in this post I feel complied to explain what happened to us

So here's what happened in a nutshell, (multiple merges that went south) As SoH continued to grow in strength, we allowed two clans to merge with SoH Otpisani (OTP) and Momento Mori (MM). MM was about to collapse and Momento Mori clan leaders couldn't find a clan to accept them, so we agreed to let them join SoH. Their clan leaders celliotti and Lord Arioch requested at the time of the merge to, not take on any co-leader roles or responsibilities, which was ok. However, during the finals couple rounds of CL10 our co-leader dt03457 had some real life priorities and had to bow out of running our wars and take a sabbatical. Our other co-leader crazy4catnip had a serious life threatening situation with the wild fires in Southern California and lost his home and his family belongings (which put him out of playing for months).

With myself being the only co-leader left, everything drop in my lap to handle CL10 and CC9, and at the same time, evaluating all the new members of MM clan to see were everyone can fit in and prepare team line ups for 49 players (CC9 rnds 2 and 3). and to add to the hectic situation, I was changing jobs and moved from Florida to Texas. (a very busy hectic time for me) I had on numerous occasions requested for members to step up and help, no one would or not able.

Then Lord Arioch agreed to handle a couple matches to finish up CL10 while I handled CC9. Then our members celliotti and Lord Arioch (former MM clan) started complaining and complaining and complaining about having to run some wars matches. Lord Arioch then sent out a pm to all members (without consulting SoH clan leaders first) requesting someone needs to step up to help, cause he's not wanting nor willing to help with any more wars. Subsequently no one offered to help. Since no one help I figured I'll tough it out to keep things running as smooth as possible .

The saga continued as Lord Arioch and others started conspiring behind the scenes to all his former clan members (which were now SoH members) to leave cause there is no support from members. Then I find out that Lord Arioch and other MM members conspired again behind the scenes to get several of our Elite members (former OTP clan) to join them and go to OSA. Typically when a member wants to leave we release them, but they sent a list to our co-leader crazy4catnip and not me, requesting 19 members to be removed from our roster. and this all came to a head between rounds 2 and 3. With losing 1/2 your members at a critical time doing line ups for rnd 3. We did not have enough time to regroup to restructure teams for CC9 rnd 3 deadlines. Hence we had no choice but to pull out

Lindax asked if there's anything he can do to help, but I don't see where he could help. Except, there must be some rule or violation that governs this kind of wrong doing and behavior to sabotage our clan. In my opinion penalties should be asset all those players and should be banned from playing any wars, tourneys for 6 months or longer and not allowed to play any 1v1 wars with OSA for 6 months or longer. How this kind of behavior can occur with no consequences for their actions is very disheartening.

So in conclusion, SoH is regrouping and will be participating in wars again in the near future. Lesson learned, be careful who you merge with.

Once again my apologize to you all and gl luck in CC9

Thanks,

Torres

[Caymanmew]

I got to say this is a shitty situation and i do feel bad for SoH but one thing that is bugging me here is that we have 16 active players from MM jumping from clan to clan. We are losing clans left and right and then we have a group like this...

16 players is 2 less then ATL and more then ATL had active 9 month ago. Easily enough to run a clan, recruit a few and you're in great shape.

OSA had 17 active, with these 19 they now have 36, that is insane, you can for sure make 2 clans from that....

Maybe it is time we start putting a limit on number of players clans can have, 25 seems more then enough to me...

[benga]

If you read carefully no one is willing to lead clan, organise stuff in essence work.
I can't vouch 100% but if I left OSA would fall apart too.

[iAmCaffeine]

If you read carefully no one is willing to lead clan, organise stuff in essence work.
I can't vouch 100% but if I left OSA would fall apart too.

Shut up lol.

MM was accepted into SoH because nobody would accept them. Completely believable since they have like 2 good players. SoH accepted them (even though not everyone in SoH was in favour of it). Serious real life instances had a bag impact and rather than help someone who’s just lost their whole fucking house, they cried about having to run some wars. I mean just put those two things in perspective.

So instead of man up and deal with the situation, they conspire to leave and take some of SoH’s best players in the process. It’s actually sickening behaviour.

I know torres’ account is accurate because it’s the same reason dt joined ICON.

Imagine deceiving and betraying your clan because you didn’t want to run some wars when one of the people initially handling it is dealing with the fact his house just got burnt down.

Ever since TheMissionary left, MM has been shit but celliottii always struck me as someone who at least had morales. Actually disgusting.

[rockfist]

We used to have the Cup Tied rule that would somewhat address this.

[Donelladan]

Seems to me a player cap for clans has been suggested many times already.
Maybe it is time to open an official discussion about it.

[Jdsizzleslice]

I got to say this is a shitty situation and i do feel bad for SoH but one thing that is bugging me here is that we have 16 active players from MM jumping from clan to clan. We are losing clans left and right and then we have a group like this...

16 players is 2 less then ATL and more then ATL had active 9 month ago. Easily enough to run a clan, recruit a few and you're in great shape.

OSA had 17 active, with these 19 they now have 36, that is insane, you can for sure make 2 clans from that....

Maybe it is time we start putting a limit on number of players clans can have, 25 seems more then enough to me...

Seems to me a player cap for clans has been suggested many times already.
Maybe it is time to open an official discussion about it.

I'll be transparent with you all.

These comes completely uncanny to me, because the CD's have been discussing this for a long time now. We have opened a CAT discussion for this very topic here.

Let's move the discussion of Active Player Restriction to CAT. Also, someone could start a thread in CAT about future CC tournaments and what happens when a clan withdraws from it.

Let's move the focus of this particular thread back to CC9 in general.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, ideas, and concerns.

[Lindax]

I see LHDD has won round 2. Don't know when this happened, but round 3 needs to start Sunday, May 19.

That is FALL vs LHDD

Lx

[GoranZ]

I see LHDD has won round 2. Don't know when this happened, but round 3 needs to start Sunday, May 19.

That is FALL vs LHDD

Lx

Sometimes in the last 7 days... I've send a message.

[rockfist]

LHDD Fallen is IMO a rivalry match...should be interesting.

[iAmCaffeine]

I was thinking the same thing.

[benga]

Sent message to Swifte to start preparing our war.

[Lindax]

Sent message to Swifte to start preparing our war.

Thanks.

Lx

[celliottii]

Lord Arich (Erik) and I have discussed this ever since Torres44cm (Steve) went public with why we left SOH. While we don't agree with creating/adding to drama that should/could be handled privately, we do feel that we should voice our side to clear our names and reputations.

I will say that we did not know about crazy4catnip's personal situation with the fires in California, nor were we told by anyone in SOH when Jim went AWOL...or when we stepped up to help with CLX.

Here is the last conversation we had with Torres, just prior to his posting in this Forum:

Your spinning this whole thing, You guys didn't clearly communicate with me. and neither did the OTP crew on their intentions. I'm that last person to say you can't leave a clan, as every member has every right to leave, but the lack of reasonable timing on you guys part was part of the problem. below are my issues

I'm going to go through all of these one at a time. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the SOH Forum, so I cannot post those quotes/topics. You can verify my statements on the SOH forum yourself. You can also go through the Facebook chats between you, Erik, and myself from January 19, 2019 through March 4, 2019, and you'll see Erik and I communicated clearly with you about CLX games and how little time we had to do these. I'm not going to paste these, as everyone has access to it already.

[spoiler=Point 1]

1.A responsible respectful player would at least finish the tourney at hand and wait till CC9 was completed.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Leaving SoH
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:46 am
From: celliottii
To: crazy4catnip, torres44cm, Lord Arioch

Sorry, Steve, but none of us will be participating in CC9. Good luck to SoH.

Chuck

As you can see from the PM I sent to you and crazy4catnip, we had no intention of participating in CC9. Therefore, no reason for us to wait for CC9 to be completed.

Also, I did send Lindax a PM that we were no longer part of SOH prior to the start of CC9.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: CC9 - TOFU vs. SOH
Date: Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:04 pm
From: celliottii
To: Lindax

The MM and OTP members are leaving Soh effective today....and I've already left the clan.

It's their lack of leadership is the reason we are leaving...

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Point 2]

2. The problem with communication was had by all you guys, as SoH had been requesting members to step up long before you guys joined. and no one including the MM crew were willing to step up. A clan to function efficiently needs members help and participate when called upon, MM crew and OTP crew didn't want to help, so everything was left to me and Jim

Don't even go there. Erik and I sent out numerous PMs to you and Jim, plus made several SOH Forum posts asking for guidance in the CLX games we had to create and cover because Jim went AWOL.

Also, Erik and I stated from the very beginning of our merger that we did not want any clan responsibilities...I gave Jim access to our clan database, but he chose not to use it.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Point 3]

3. When OTP crew joined SoH they made it very clear, they wanted to left alone to do there own thing within SOH, that is not play with anyone except their crew and only with players who use only Skype. This was very frustrating to me and Jim that they wanted to be left completely alone no posting in forum, not willing to let other members play with them. So we allowed it for the sake of winning wars and climb the CC ladder

OTP asked bobbythomson to join them because they are all from the Slavic area of Europe. When Erik and I approached the MM players about leaving SOH, Bob was hesitant. The OTP team (with Bob) talked to me on Skype about their dissatisfaction with SOH, especially with Jim going AWOL. They chose to join us in moving to OSA of their own volition.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Point 4]

4. Jim complained to me about you guys cause you were a pain to deal with on a regular bases. So he finally had his fill gave up on MM crew. that's why he left, which forced me to handle things, hence i reached out to you. And instead of stepping up temporarily helping all you did was complain

Jim never said anything to me about his complaints, so I have no basis for this. If he said something to Erik, then Erik will add his part to this.

Well said!
And regarding Jims complains about MM, i never heard anything he just went AWOL. And after that everything fell apart.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Point 5]

5. I specifically informed you and celliottii before you agreed to join us, that our clan didn't communicate like other clan, and that members just want to play their turns and back to real life, no clan interaction wanted.

We never had an issue with this. Our issue was the lack of clan leadership in creating CLX clan games. Once Jim went AWOL, no clan leader in SOH stepped up to create the games. You even asked Erik and I to help out with CLX once Jim disappeared.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Point 6]

6. When I was left to run things by myself, I reached out to you to help get pass this hump, but you keep complaining and complaining about being involved with leadership, we like you said, no one step up which a clan should work together not chat behind the scenes to leave at a bad time. and it wouldn't have hurt you to help out a little longer, but you didn't want to be involved just like the rest of the members. so it was play in wars only

You're absolutely correct with is, Steve. Erik and I told you, Jim, and the other SOH clan leaders during the merger talks that we did not want to have any part of clan leadership. Period. Things were great until Jim went AWOL. As you know, things went to crap with CLX when Jim left. You asked us to help out and we did...we weren't happy about it, but we did. We asked SOH members in the Forum to help us fill games, but rarely did anyone volunteer to join games. We/I created games and put MM and OTP players in the games to fill them so SOH would not be penalized in CLX.

That lack of communication for the entire clan is what led us to start looking at other clans.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Bottom Line]

Bottom line SoH didn't have a dictator, but was meant to be a clan run by its members to help when needed, that means ALL members. and having a little loyalty to finish a war instead of bailing like you guys did is what sucked, hence the timing of your actions sabotaged CC9

By your own statement in #5 above, you contradict yourself to some degree. You say in one part that SOH doesn't communicate like a regular clan, but here you say the clan is run by all of the members. How is that possible?

You question us about our loyalty? Who else in SOH stepped up when Jim went AWOL? We did! Who in SOH created all of the CLX games once Jim went AWOL? We did! You might want to rethink that statement.

And....go back to the beginning of this PM. We told you on April 19th, that we will not be participating in CC9. This was before that tournament started, so no one in MM or OTP "bailed" on SOH.

I've pasted below the original PM sent to you by me letting you know we would be leaving:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Leaving SoH
Date: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:47 am
From: celliottii
To: torres44cm, Lord Arioch

Steve,

Erik and I have chatted with members of the MM clan and we will be leaving SoH once our current clan games are complete.

When MM and SoH merged, Erik and I made it quite clear that we did not want any clan leadership responsibilities...we do not have the extra time available to devote to this. When Jim took his unexpected and unannounced sabbatical, we asked for other SoH members to step up during CLX. No one did.

When we took over CLX, we sent out messages for SoH to give guidance and advice on upcoming matches. No one did.

When it came time to fill games, we asked SoH members to step up into the games. Again, no one did.

We are frustrated and do not wish to be part of a clan that does not support each other when help is needed.

Good luck to you and SoH.

Chuck and Erik

Also, when the MM and OTP players left, crazy4catnip had no issue in removing us from the clan when I asked him. He was very quick about it. Where was he when SOH needed help with CLX or when Jim went AWOL?

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Leaving SoH
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:29 pm
From: celliottii
To: crazy4catnip

Crazy,

I sent the following to Steve yesterday:

Steve,

Erik and I have chatted with members of the MM clan and we will be leaving SoH once our current clan games are complete.

When MM and SoH merged, Erik and I made it quite clear that we did not want any clan leadership responsibilities...we do not have the extra time available to devote to this. When Jim took his unexpected and unannounced sabbatical, we asked for other SoH members to step up during CLX. No one did.

When we took over CLX, we sent out messages for SoH to give guidance and advice on upcoming matches. No one did.

When it came time to fill games, we asked SoH members to step up into the games. Again, no one did.

We are frustrated and do not wish to be part of a clan that does not support each other when help is needed.

Good luck to you and SoH.

Chuck and Erik

Can you please remove the following players from the SoH clan? They cannot do it themselves as SoH is their default group. Thanks!

Bendiko
bobbythomson
born2reign
BowNet
dinustef
DP757
hlbart
Liveoak
Lockup
Seinfeld1
TheDrunkenBoxer
vojinsek
william tennant
yastreb

Thank you!

Chuck

[/spoiler]

Steve, there is no spinning of the events or facts going on by us. There is no reason to have any more in depth conversations about this. I'm too busy with work and RL and we've gave you and SOH plenty of notice about our intentions.

Chuck & Erik

[iAmCaffeine]

This is obviously not the right thread for this discussion. I think it'd be a good idea for a mod to split this topic into something separate in the main clans forum.

Having said that, it seems all parties involved are at fault.

From my understanding, dt03457 didn't even want the merge to begin with and when it went ahead anyway, he was obviously unhappy. I don't know if that solely led to him no longer helping run wars, or if other things contributed to that.

Considering your failing clan led to the situation of SoH needing someone to step up and help organise, do you not think it would have been a good idea to assist with that? It strikes me as odd that would join up with SoH and then not help your new clan when they needed it.

It seems incorrect to say that the Optisani portion of SoH left of their own volition when you stated yourself that you approached them on Skype. That group had been part of SoH for years. I've spoke to several of them previously and they'd been happy to remain together, playing for SoH, because the leaders of the clan allowed them to operate how they wished.

Personally, I don't think this post was necessary at all. Sure you want to get your own version of events out in public since the opposing side has done too, but honestly, nobody really cares apart from those directly involved. I'm here because drama is fun, that's it.

You also shouldn't be posting people's actual names unless you have their permission, by the way.

[rockfist]

This whole saga is sad and it doesn't belong here. We need more clans doing better not less.