CL8 Discussion Area

[Donelladan]

The main purpose of the 1st contact for the CL8 is, as far as I know, to create the home games and sent the invitations for the away games.
This is quite a work, especially given the deadlines in place.
If LHDD was forced to change our 1st contact, we would also be forced to seriously consider our ability to participate in the CL8. Simply because taking care of this burden is a responsibility that not everyone would be ready to take in our clan.

Some individuals are not able to work together, I can understand that, and therefore I can understand Lindax does not wish to have further communications with PaulatPeace ( if that's the issue here). In which case let another member of TOP ( the 2nd contact ? ) to handle the Lindax/TOP communication for the CL8, but let PaulatPeace be 1st contact. Just offering a solution.

I have no involvement in this, I don't care, but as I said above, I don't think CD should prevent someone to be 1st/2nd contact, for any clans.

[macken]

- Lindax wanted Paul to apologize in public for the way Paul responded to Lindax's rude reply to a sincere concern regarding the CL7 guidelines to infractions ( Which is clearly what the protocol is when there is a concern, It states to go to TO for any questions or concerns). Paul then asked Lindax to apologize to him in same manner and all would be good, But Lindax refused.

- Now it seems that keeping Lindax as a content TO is more important than what is right or fair? If Ice goes against Lindax's decision to hold this eronius grudge, then it would upset the inner workings of the Clan Dept.

- To all who are against TOP, I can see you coming forth to spew negativity, But if it happens to you it would sound like a different song.

- Lindax/Ice and company do a hell of a job as far as organizing and keeping everything up to date, But as for handling fair treatment and punishment there is work to be done.

-\MGM/-♎

I have to add for clarify, that I'm in TOP, but above at all, I never would say anything that I consider unfair. I mean, my expressions are about what I see. I would say the same if were about any other person. Here is no trap or cardboard. I say honestly.

Agreed with Mags, there is much work here to organize and get things going. I appreciate and applaud.
Also much work to organize a clan. All can know.
But we must try to be fair, have clear rules, be understanding, avoid unnecessary and unfair warm-ups, and help us. We are here for fun and good moments.

The main purpose of the 1st contact for the CL8 is, as far as I know, to create the home games and sent the invitations for the away games.
This is quite a work, especially given the deadlines in place.
If LHDD was forced to change our 1st contact, we would also be forced to seriously consider our ability to participate in the CL8. Simply because taking care of this burden is a responsibility that not everyone would be ready to take in our clan.

Some individuals are not able to work together, I can understand that, and therefore I can understand Lindax does not wish to have further communications with PaulatPeace ( if that's the issue here). In which case let another member of TOP ( the 2nd contact ? ) to handle the Lindax/TOP communication for the CL8, but let PaulatPeace be 1st contact. Just offering a solution.

I have no involvement in this, I don't care, but as I said above, I don't think CD should prevent someone to be 1st/2nd contact, for any clans.

Yes. Agreed. In addition, is a work that not everyone would be ready to take, but also have to be well done!! precisely to avoid penalty. And not everyone can do in good way.
So this is altering the conditions of the participation and tournament development. Is more important what may seem, but above all, it is not fair and have not argument for it.

[macken]

Joined with the previous. Sorry. (I had not seen the last post, I saw once I wrote mine)

[macken]

I read the entire post.
My two cents:

Trench restriction makes no sense. Perhaps at an initial stage was treated as "beta"? Maybe. No sense to continue restricting this enriching variety in the game, and also annoying when have to create the games.

Participation and knowledge. It is understood that the issues have to be channeled by the representatives to the organizers, otherwise it is quite unfeasible due to the volume. It is clear.
But also make the public thread without the right to publish, it allows everyone to read different opinions, promote development. Everyone can speak in their respective forum if desired, and then channeled through the representative.

Real participation (in the case that are not yet) of all the clans in the changes that affect all the clans.
True, you can not be changing every moment. But some coherent development is always welcome, needed and fair.

[rockfist]

There is an awful lot of noise here.

[PaulatPeace]

To some...Noise is Music...to others...Music is Noise!

Paul

[IcePack]

Just to clarify a few things / answer some questions. I don't plan on spending a lot of time responding to things here, because we (CD Team) have already spent a lot of time on this issue. But felt it would be prudent to answer some of the valid questions and concerns that have been posted.
Thanks,
IcePack

TOP has been denied the right to choose it's own 1st & 2nd Contacts for the CL 8.

The letter below is an exact copy of the one sent to IcePack in response to his decision on the Appeal TOP made regarding this.

The purpose of including it here is to inform the clan community.

Thank you,

PaulatPeace

Without rehashing every little detail, we are not "denying the right for TOP to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts", as you've indicated.
During the course of CL7, you (PaulatPeace) had priviledges removed as a punishment. An appeal was made, which was overuled by myself and the admins.
I have also previously stated that I will not get into CD Team Disciplinary details, (just as we would not for C&A cases or past player histories) so that statement is an assumption made on your part.

While there were efforts after CL7 on the part of both parties to personally patch things up as you referenced, ultimately it helped re-establish communication but saw no resolution on the matters at hand as both sides essentially agreed to disagree. These efforts while commendable, do not take away from the fact that the original punishment and appeal occurred and losing priv's is not something that we take lightly. I understand you / TOP still feel the original occurrence was incorrectly implimented, and we've had many discussions over it.

However, per our policy if you lose privs during a war, you would lose the ability to regain priv's for a period of 6-12 months. For a clan event, losing privs during an event due to the long duration of these events, is difficult to establish a time period so in lieu of this you lose priv's for the next iteration of the event (CL8). As we've previously outlined to you (but for the benefit of the readers here), you are still eligible for priv's for private / pick up wars, and can assist TOP in planning the war and can communicate normally in the event thread, you just will not be eligible to be the main point of contact for the TO of the event / receive priviledges. Someone else will need to represent TOP in messages, and use the priv's to create the games (that could still be planned / researched by you, or however TOP chooses to plan their games).

Thus, we are only restricting TOP's ability to select you (PaulatPeace) as one of the contacts for this event as you originally submitted during your sign up for CL8. But TOP has a free hand to select whomever for 1st & 2nd Contacts otherwise who are not currently under disciplinary measures.

I do not understand what is happening.
Where are the rules here?

The rules must be clear and fair.
Applying them must obey the same principles.

I would like a plausible explanation, where are the rules which contains the type of punishment and what the facts are, and then we can check if it has been and understand.
I do not want arbitrary, unfair decisions, coming out of someone's will. I guess nobody wants either.
And this is what I see is happening.

This information has been communicated to your clan leaders multiple times, so I'm sure they can help clear it up for you. However, if you would like to research & learn more on your own you can read this post in particular (but the whole thread is excellent references for overall handling of clan business and how things work)

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=219548#p4846719

The rules clan leaders abide by are clear and available to all to read.

I have a question. What exactly do the Clan Directors gain from dictating who can / can't be the contact for TOP?

We have consistency and follow the established guidelines and policies. It also discourages future issues by establishing that we will follow the policy and protocols set forth so players and leaders both will know what to expect. Not following established guidelines shows rules can be bent / broken and no reprecussions will be faced, or opens us up to accusations that they are being enforced sporatically, and not uniformally and show favoritism to specific clans / individuals.

- Lindax/Ice and company do a hell of a job as far as organizing and keeping everything up to date, But as for handling fair treatment and punishment there is work to be done.

Appreciate it, and my view is there are always room for improvement on multiple fronts. I know we have worked within CDF to establish consistent rules regarding punishments within the leagues with all clans feedback to ensure fair treatment of all clans. My hope is that we can continue making improvements, and that something like this that lead to the issue can be avoided to begin with in the future.

The main purpose of the 1st contact for the CL8 is, as far as I know, to create the home games and sent the invitations for the away games.
This is quite a work, especially given the deadlines in place.
If LHDD was forced to change our 1st contact, we would also be forced to seriously consider our ability to participate in the CL8. Simply because taking care of this burden is a responsibility that not everyone would be ready to take in our clan.

Some individuals are not able to work together, I can understand that, and therefore I can understand Lindax does not wish to have further communications with PaulatPeace ( if that's the issue here). In which case let another member of TOP ( the 2nd contact ? ) to handle the Lindax/TOP communication for the CL8, but let PaulatPeace be 1st contact. Just offering a solution.

I have no involvement in this, I don't care, but as I said above, I don't think CD should prevent someone to be 1st/2nd contact, for any clans.

The 1st & 2nd Contacts are the ones who are charged to communicate with the CD Team / TO's, as well as create home / send invitations. As I've outlined above, losing priviledges does have consequences that are outlined. The games can be planned by whoever, but the priv holder will need to communicate and create games which should be the lesser amount of the work than the researching, planning, deciding players etc of whoever the "planner" is.

Other solutions have been discussed and debated, but ultimately it sets a poor precident of making exceptions, special arrangements and could cause more issues in the future cases that come up looking for other special arrangements outside of the printed established guidelines that all must follow.

[iAmCaffeine]

Good post. My question was rhetorical really, but thanks.

[macken]

There is an awful lot of noise here.

You refer to this type of comments that do not discuss anything about the subject, but rather are hostile.
Agreed, are awful.

[Lindax]

- Lindax wanted Paul to apologize in public for the way Paul responded to Lindax's rude reply to a sincere concern regarding the CL7 guidelines to infractions ( Which is clearly what the protocol is when there is a concern, It states to go to TO for any questions or concerns). Paul then asked Lindax to apologize to him in same manner and all would be good, But Lindax refused.

-\MGM/-♎

Your comment/statement does not only refer to a very private and personal series of PMs between Paul and myself, it is also incorrect.

The issue of Paul being removed as the clan contact has nothing to do with our private efforts to clear the air between us on a personal level. These are two totally separate issues. Please refrain from bringing up the private issue, and any content from our private PMs, in public.

For the record: I have nothing to apologize for. I made a decision, Paul appealed that decision. My decision was not overturned, instead it was backed by the Clan Department and CC Admin.

Lx

[Lord Arioch]

Didnt we question the restriction on trench last year (cl7) i vote abolish ... trench is kickass fun! well i think so anyhow
Looking forward to this guys!

Kudos to the organisers as usual!

[macken]

I do not understand what is happening.
Where are the rules here?
...
I would like a plausible explanation, where are the rules which contains the type of punishment and what the facts are, and then we can check if it has been and understand.
...

..., if you would like to research & learn more on your own you can read this post in particular (but the whole thread is excellent references for overall handling of clan business and how things work)

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=219548#p4846719

The rules clan leaders abide by are clear and available to all to read.

I read the post and I have two questions:

1.- These post of the rules was created in August 21, 2016.
The punishment was in CL7 time ago.
So where are the post that indicates the previous rules and punishment, to be know and applicable when it happened?, which is what was applied in theory.

2.- In the post of the rules you mention, I only have seen this about:


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Official] Clan 'How To' Guides
Postby Keefie on 21 Aug 2016, 18:13

Clan Challenge Privileges

Penalties:

Abuse of privileges and/or Misuse: 6 Month to 12 Month clan gaming privileges ban for player, length of duration at the clan directors' discretion, plus those players who knowingly participate in a clan war that they know is not valid. Using another person's account to run a war will also result in a ban of clan privileges. If the problem is so pervasive, a full clan ban on gaming privileges could be put into place for the violating clan.

Abandoned Clan Wars: Clans that abandon a challenge will lose clan gaming privileges for 3 months at the clan directors' discretion.

Abandoning or Removal from Clan Tournaments: Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges for a predetermined length of time, length of duration at the clan tournament director's discretion, or for future tournaments.

Once the terms of the war are documented, and both contacts are noted in the thread, please post in here to obtain game creation privileges, with both names and the link to the war thread.

The CDs retain full and absolute discretion to deny privileges should they determine that any event/war would not be in the best interest of clans as a whole.

This policy and procedures manual will be updated accordingly.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are the punishable action and what are the applied punishment, according to the rules? (I put in blue what seem are the punishable action and punishment applied, but I not know)

To my knowledge and for those who may be interested in knowing the rules to know and conveniently follow.

[IcePack]

Hey macken,
1. The original thread / post is in the archive. The date you refer to was when we decided to reorganize the announcements. It was getting cluttered and so 4 threads or something were merged into one new thread that I linked you too. But the content didn't change, we just combined multiple threads / announcements into one post.

2. Your blue section highlighted refers to wars. A few paragraph down deals with events like conquerors cup or the clan league:

Abandoning or Removal from Clan Tournaments: Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges for a predetermined length of time, length of duration at the clan tournament director's discretion, or for future tournaments.

[macken]

Hey macken,
1. The original thread / post is in the archive. The date you refer to was when we decided to reorganize the announcements. It was getting cluttered and so 4 threads or something were merged into one new thread that I linked you too. But the content didn't change, we just combined multiple threads / announcements into one post.

2. Your blue section highlighted refers to wars. A few paragraph down deals with events like conquerors cup or the clan league:

Abandoning or Removal from Clan Tournaments: Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges for a predetermined length of time, length of duration at the clan tournament director's discretion, or for future tournaments.

Then, as I can understand, that rule not reflects what happened with Paul, because Paul not abandoned CL7 and neither was removed from CL7.

[IcePack]

Hey macken,
1. The original thread / post is in the archive. The date you refer to was when we decided to reorganize the announcements. It was getting cluttered and so 4 threads or something were merged into one new thread that I linked you too. But the content didn't change, we just combined multiple threads / announcements into one post.

2. Your blue section highlighted refers to wars. A few paragraph down deals with events like conquerors cup or the clan league:

Abandoning or Removal from Clan Tournaments: Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges for a predetermined length of time, length of duration at the clan tournament director's discretion, or for future tournaments.

Then, as I can understand, that rule not reflects what happened with Paul, because Paul not abandoned CL7 and neither was removed from CL7.

Those paragraphs are under the topic of Clan Tournament Priviledges, so it's referencing whether you abandon an event or had the priv's removed. Which he did have those priv removed.

Again, this was explained to your leaders in depth. Perhaps you want to get more info from them.

[jcmagno]

For stay in the topic, I think trench settings are shit for 90% of the maps...(or more)

Must be limited to 20% or less.

Why trench is limited and unlimited reinforce or ****** is not limited reason, I don't know.

If wanna create limits for some settings, I'm fine...

...but against of make possible 100% of trench games, 30% is so much.

[iAmCaffeine]

That's your opinion due to personal preference, not an objective point of view.

[macken]

Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges....


Those paragraphs are under the topic of Clan Tournament Priviledges, so it's referencing whether you abandon an event or had the priv's removed. Which he did have those priv removed.

These phrase says the cause (abandon or be removed) and the punishment (lose clan gaming privileges). That not was the cause which we are talking.

I'm asking for the rule wich expresses the cause which Paul was sanctioned, if it exists.

[IcePack]

Clans or War Contacts who abandon or are removed from Clan Tournaments may lose clan gaming privileges....

Those paragraphs are under the topic of Clan Tournament Priviledges, so it's referencing whether you abandon an event or had the priv's removed. Which he did have those priv removed.

These phrase says the cause (abandon or be removed) and the punishment (lose clan gaming privileges). That not was the cause which we are talking.

I'm asking for the rule wich expresses the cause which Paul was sanctioned, if it exists.

I've highlighted the section you seem to be missing. Paul had his priviledges removed during CL7, the punishment for that is loss of priviledges for CL8. The paragraph I showed you & the post linked deals with that issue regarding loss of priv's.

I'm sorry you are having difficulties understanding it, as I said maybe Paul or TOP leadership can help explain it to you.

[MagnusGreeol]

- Lindax wanted Paul to apologize in public for the way Paul responded to Lindax's rude reply to a sincere concern regarding the CL7 guidelines to infractions ( Which is clearly what the protocol is when there is a concern, It states to go to TO for any questions or concerns). Paul then asked Lindax to apologize to him in same manner and all would be good, But Lindax refused.

-\MGM/-♎

Your comment/statement does not only refer to a very private and personal series of PMs between Paul and myself, it is also incorrect.

The issue of Paul being removed as the clan contact has nothing to do with our private efforts to clear the air between us on a personal level. These are two totally separate issues. Please refrain from bringing up the private issue, and any content from our private PMs, in public.

For the record: I have nothing to apologize for. I made a decision, Paul appealed that decision. My decision was not overturned, instead it was backed by the Clan Department and CC Admin.

Lx

- I'm not fighting you personally, just the way in which what you wrote is written,

- For the record: The Admins wanted nothing to do with this, They wanted the clan Dept. to handle it, And they didn't want to step on the toes of the people who volunteer a lot of time on the owners site. This was not "backed" by Admins, It was solely left up to the Clan Dept., You & Ice.

-\MGM/-♎

[IcePack]

- For the record: The Admins wanted nothing to do with this, They wanted the clan Dept. to handle it, And they didn't want to step on the toes of the people who volunteer a lot of time on the owners site. This was not "backed" by Admins, It was solely left up to the Clan Dept., You & Ice.

For the record? You know whats been discussed between Admin and myself? Our Skype? Our PMs? Posts in private Clan Director area?
You can't say something "for the record" if you only know part of the story. Sorry, it doesn't work that way mate. It amounts to spreading misinformation. You can say "as far as I know", but you can't say that definitively.

Please dont try to pretend that you can speak for Admin on what they do, or don't support or back.

Thanks,
IcePack

[JPlo64]

Just to clarify a few things / answer some questions....

Terrific post by IcePack!
I'm definitely on the CD's side in this one.

[BIG_John]

I am not going to give my opinion of this because nothing good will come of it. So with that said I am looking forward to TOP facing the best competition in the Clan world and we can keep on proving ourselves. Good luck to everyone in CL8 both divisions and may the best clans win!

[PaulatPeace]

I would also like to add some clarification regarding some statements that have been made:

Without rehashing every little detail, we are not "denying the right for TOP to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts", as you've indicated.

This is simply not true! TOP decided they wanted me to be their 1st Contact for the CL 8. If I was not allowed to be 1st Contact, then they want me to be the 2nd Contact. TOP is indeed being denied the right to choose it's own 1st and 2nd Contacts. TOP's first choice for both Contact positions is being denied! Plain and simple fact!

We have consistency and follow the established guidelines and policies. It also discourages future issues by establishing that we will follow the policy and protocols set forth so players and leaders both will know what to expect. Not following established guidelines shows rules can be bent / broken and no reprecussions will be faced, or opens us up to accusations that they are being enforced sporatically, and not uniformally and show favoritism to specific clans / individuals.

This is an interesting statement. I can tell you from personal experience that it has not been true for TOP! I became aware of and concerned about a problem I saw within The Division II CL7 Tournament. Having read the General Rules contained within the CL7, and noting the particular passage "if you feel that a clan or a player has broken a rule, please report this to the TOs. Same goes for any other problem you encounter during this clan event."... it was clear what the proper course of action to be taken was. I wrote a short note to the TOs bringing this problem to their attention and indicating that I felt it was becoming a habitual occurrence and a serious issue. I was polite, courteous and respectful to the TOs, as I had always been. By following the "established guidelines and policies" TOP received a "Warning" and removal of it's 1st Contact. So much for following the established guidelines and policies!

Abuse of privileges and/or Misuse: 6 Month to 12 Month clan gaming privileges ban for player, length of duration at the clan directors' discretion

This is a correct quote .....but kindly notice the criteria: 1) "Abuse of privileges and/or Misuse" but I believe the question being asked is "What rule was broken which fell under "Abuse of privileges and/or Misuse"? At the time the CL 7 issue occurred, I believe TOP may have been the only clan in the Division II that had not violated any rule of committed any infraction. As 1st Contact I brought a legitimate concern to Lindax's attention. His reply to me was rude, disrespectful and bullying! I told him he had no right to treat me or anyone else that way and that I had lost respect for him. For this we received this response from Lindax:

the first clan contact has been utterly disrespectful to the TOs/CDs and will no longer be dealt with. His privileges have been removed.

MagnusGreeol wrote:
- Lindax wanted Paul to apologize in public for the way Paul responded to Lindax's rude reply to a sincere concern regarding the CL7 guidelines to infractions ( Which is clearly what the protocol is when there is a concern, It states to go to TO for any questions or concerns). Paul then asked Lindax to apologize to him in same manner and all would be good, But Lindax refused.

-\MGM/-♎

Your comment/statement does not only refer to a very private and personal series of PMs between Paul and myself, it is also incorrect.

What Magnus has said here is absolutely true. It is not incorrect!!! My communications with Lindax have been forwarded to the Head Clan Director and Team and also to TOP's Leadership Team as a matter of record, as they were of direct concern to all parties.

As I have said. Lindax made his decision and IcePack supported it. There is nothing more we can do. But I will tell you this...if anyone thinks Magnus will tolerate abuse and disrespect any more than I would.....they are sadly mistaken! By the end of the CL 8 the TO may well wish he had left me as 1st Contact!

Paul

[JPlo64]

Without rehashing every little detail, we are not "denying the right for TOP to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts", as you've indicated.

This is simply not true! TOP decided they wanted me to be their 1st Contact for the CL 8. If I was not allowed to be 1st Contact, then they want me to be the 2nd Contact. TOP is indeed being denied the right to choose it's own 1st and 2nd Contacts. TOP's first choice for both Contact positions is being denied! Plain and simple fact!

Impartial statement:

Logically, "denying the right for TOP to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts" would mean that the CD's are telling TOP exactly who their contacts MUST be with no alternative option.

The act of the CD's limiting TOP's options (by not allowing P@P to be contact) is not "denying the right for TOP to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts".

IN fact, a clan's choice for 1st contact is actually already limited by the written rules on who can receive privileges because the player receiving privileges must be premium.
By TOP's "logic", the CD's are "denying the right for ALL CLANS to choose its own 1st and 2nd Contacts" because the player receiving privileges must be premium.