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Conchobar wrote:The United Kingdom did not vote to leave the EU. England and Wales did. Scotland should get another independence referendum and be allowed to stay in.
52% of people in the UK voted to leave. Drawing a little line around all the areas in which a majority voted Remain doesn't change the fact that the majority of people in the country voted Leave.
Presumably you are also advocating referendums for London, Manchester and other boundaries within which a majority of people voted Remain?
Of course not, although I do have sympathy for the people of London. But that's a stupid comparison to make. I'm not the one drawing the lines, the lines are already there. The fact is the UK is a union of four distinct countries. And the results of this referendum show a clear divide between the wishes of Scottish & Irish people compared to English people.
England: Leave 53.4% - Remain 46.6%
Northern Ireland: Leave 44.2% - Remain 55.8%
Scotland: Leave 38.0% - Remain 62.0%
Do you ever get the feeling that knowing who voted which way in certain arbitrary borders is an entirely media-generated story? I think they are taking you for a spin. It doesn't matter what "Scotland" picked anymore than it matters what the people in the Orkneys picked. If the Orkneys were 90% Remain do you think they would separate from Scotland? All the people on Charing Cross road voted to remain - time for separatism! Don't fall to their tricks concho.
Don't worry; doubt there'll be an EU to defect to by the time Scotland has Independence Referendum II.
Support for Nexit is running 54%. After the Autumn migrant season hits, and Greek Crash III comes along, the rest of the dominoes should fall pretty neatly.
"Daddy's home. Scootch over a bit."
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism
saxitoxin wrote:Don't worry; doubt there'll be an EU to defect to by the time Scotland has Independence Referendum II.
Support for Nexit is running 54%. After the Autumn migrant season hits, and Greek Crash III comes along, the rest of the dominoes should fall pretty neatly.
"Daddy's home. Scootch over a bit."
The Netherlands are a consociational democracy as opposed to the UK. So unless Geert Wilders gets the support of other parties, a referendum won't even take place.
Last edited by waauw on Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The People's Republic sends congratulatory salutations to the UK on deciding to leave the EU:
China wrote:“We respect the choice of the British people and we highly regard our relationship with the U.K. We would like to continue our cooperation with the U.K."
The Islamic Republic of Iran calls for fast-track independence votes for Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Milton Keynes, and the sweets shop down the street from the Iranian embassy in London:
Iran wrote:“England should pay the price of years of imperialism and committing crimes against humanity. The people of Ireland, Scotland and others have the right to bring themselves out of the tyrannical rule of the monarchy, the so-called Great Britain."
Linda Searcy has issued a demand that the shattered remnants of the EU immediately grant Turkey membership:
Linda Searcy wrote:“If [European leaders] would like to safeguard European values, they must leave aside anti-Turkey sentiments and promote closer cooperation with Turkey."
Maybe those fantasies I've often had about society collapsing 28 Days Later-style and me learning how to fend for myself in post-civilization East London will become a reality.
tbf, so long as the gangs don't get near me I'm perfectly happy with 2-3 weeks of total chaos before beating my retreat to the countryside.
Ya'll be too negative about this Brexit. In the words of Master Chief- "It's going to be alright".
The reality. There will be a short period of time where GDP and trade is impacted, but it won't last long at all.
EU or not the whole world is already interconnected in trade. Take BMW for instance, you think of it as a German car but that's only by association. For a BMW, the steel comes from China or Brazil, the upholstery from the UK, the engine from France and the electronics from the US. The labor costs for production for a typical BMW is about 10% of the total cost for the unit and some of that labor is foreign labor. Then there are the profits made by BMW that don't go to the mechanic in Dusseldorf, those profits are sent to shareholders and bondholders. More of those profits go to Japanese hedge funds than the average German. That is the world we live in, this boat sailed a long time ago.
UK is going to participate in the World economy whether they are a member of the EU or not. Period. There is no question of whether the UK is going to trade mostly free with the rest of Europe, and the rest of Europe is going to continue to trade mostly free with the UK. Germany's second largest bilateral trade surplus is with the UK. Germany has no interest in starting a trade war with the UK, it'll be business as usual no matter what. Same goes with all the other EU countries despite, for instance, France's threat of a bloody exit if the UK voted to. No private interests in Europe or the UK are interested in starting a trade war either.
If the UK is worried about trade all she has to do is remove impediments to imports as imports are intractably linked to exports. The ability to buy is linked to the ability to sell and since no one is going to be willing to start a trade war, UK is all good. No need to freak out. When the UK can remove those impediments will be a lot easier without having to go through a huge trading bloc first, the UK can make those policy changes themselves without having to get the EU's permission!
Now the EU has reason to freak out, but f*ck em. The EU receives about 136 million pounds a week from the UK in revenue. Historically UK has paid more to the EU than received from it. Today, in dollars, the UK gives the EU about $18 billion a year and receives about $8 billion back. Hahah! That 8 billion is used to fund education, social programs, etc etc. Does anyone else see the problem with this math? If UK loses getting that 8billion, who cares? They got the 18 billion that they don't have to give out!
At the moment, the EU has about 19.6 billion pounds worth of unpaid bills it owes and without the UK it's going to be that much harder for her to make up the revenue shortfall. The EU has countries like Greece who contributes absolutely nothing since the money Greece gives to the EU is from the money the EU keeps lending her in the first place.
Then there is the actual scope of the "pain" that the UK is "supposed" to feel. There are two big losers in the UK's vote to exit, UK billionaires and the rest of Europe. The UK market took a dump, but rallied back a bit, but look at the other market dumps from the rest of the EU, talk about pain! Of the UK billionaires, the absolute biggest loser (in terms of money lost) is Britain's richest person, Gerald Grosvenor who had about a billion pounds wiped out. Don't worry, he can afford it, trust me. In total, about 5.5 billion was lost by UK billionaires with Grosvenor the biggest loser. Grosvenor was also part of one of the two major parties pushing from the UK to not vote exit. The wealthy UK elite and the EU being the two parties.
As to whether or not the UK will lose power in the world because of the exit, think again. The UK spends more money on their military than any other European nation. If people think Germany can defend Europe, think again, the UK is vital to European defense and that ain't gonna change. The only Western nation that spends more on military than the UK is the US herself. Europe needs the UK more than the UK needs Europe. It doesn't matter if the UK is in the EU or not. It won't change the reality. The UK merely changed the dynamic a little bit, the EU won't be able to milk off the UK anymore, she'll have to just keep sucking at Germany's tit until Germany gets all milked out.
So let not your hearts be troubled UK, "It's going to be all right". Relax, take a breath and I promise, the world is going to keep on spinning, everyone will adapt as they need to and things are going to be (relatively speaking) pretty much the same as it's been. At least until WWIII and who gives a f*ck about that? It's not like any of this will matter at that point.
AndyDufresne wrote:I'm less informed about the state and feelings of Northern Ireland, but I've seen some articles there is discussion about a push fore unified Ireland. Any of you folks over there have more information and thoughts on that aspect of the UK crumbling like Scotland? --Andy
I'm Irish, and this is a VERY complicated question. Certainly it will be divided down the line between loyalists and nationalists. But, if we're speaking purely economically it seems like a lose/lose situation for Northern Ireland. They get a LOT of money from London that their economy couldn't do without. But, one third of their trade is with the Republic of Ireland and 55% is with the EU in total.
Also, would the Republic want Northern Ireland? Symbolically it would be a resounding yes. But economically it would be a big burden for the Republic. Our GDP per capita is almost €50,000, while in Northern Ireland it's under €25,000. Equalizing that would require a big commitment. One that I, personally, would love to see us take on. Because, in the long run, it would be very cool...
DoomYoshi wrote:Do you ever get the feeling that knowing who voted which way in certain arbitrary borders is an entirely media-generated story? I think they are taking you for a spin. It doesn't matter what "Scotland" picked anymore than it matters what the people in the Orkneys picked. If the Orkneys were 90% Remain do you think they would separate from Scotland? All the people on Charing Cross road voted to remain - time for separatism! Don't fall to their tricks concho.
The short answer, Doom, is no. And these borders are not arbitrary! We are not talking about the border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan here. These are distinct countries, not a media creation and that is a pretty ignorant and offensive assumption. There are a LOT of cultural and historical differences between England, Scotland and Ireland. It's kinda like calling the border between Mexico and New Mexico arbitrary. I mean, what's the fuckin difference, really?
DoomYoshi wrote:Do you ever get the feeling that knowing who voted which way in certain arbitrary borders is an entirely media-generated story? I think they are taking you for a spin. It doesn't matter what "Scotland" picked anymore than it matters what the people in the Orkneys picked. If the Orkneys were 90% Remain do you think they would separate from Scotland? All the people on Charing Cross road voted to remain - time for separatism! Don't fall to their tricks concho.
The short answer, Doom, is no. And these borders are not arbitrary! We are not talking about the border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan here. These are distinct countries, not a media creation and that is a pretty ignorant and offensive assumption. There are a LOT of cultural and historical differences between England, Scotland and Ireland. It's kinda like calling the border between Mexico and New Mexico arbitrary. I mean, what's the fuckin difference, really?
The border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan isn't a media creation either.
DoomYoshi wrote:Do you ever get the feeling that knowing who voted which way in certain arbitrary borders is an entirely media-generated story? I think they are taking you for a spin. It doesn't matter what "Scotland" picked anymore than it matters what the people in the Orkneys picked. If the Orkneys were 90% Remain do you think they would separate from Scotland? All the people on Charing Cross road voted to remain - time for separatism! Don't fall to their tricks concho.
The short answer, Doom, is no. And these borders are not arbitrary! We are not talking about the border between Manitoba and Saskatchewan here. These are distinct countries, not a media creation and that is a pretty ignorant and offensive assumption. There are a LOT of cultural and historical differences between England, Scotland and Ireland. It's kinda like calling the border between Mexico and New Mexico arbitrary. I mean, what's the fuckin difference, really?
East Anglia and Mercia are distinct countries as well. One difference flag is raised at nationalist brainwashing events and the other is not.
Either way, it's a non-story designed to cause confusion and resentment. Is a 4% difference going to cause separation between Scotland and the rest of the UK? Does that even make sense?
Meanwhile, Putin and Winnie the Pooh had a backroom meeting and within hours the former President of the UN was assassinated.
I realize it's human nature to define "us" vs "them". Institutions which control you are excellent at using this against you. This is what keeps the bullshit FPtP system alive in both Canada and the UK and basically makes politics totally inaccessible to anyone. When is the last time you delivered a speech at the House of Commons Conchobar? How would you go about it if you wanted to? Keep in mind that the answer has literally nothing to do with whether you are Welsh or a Londoner. You are all equally enslaved. Hence, the border dispute is a media creation whether you like it or not.
In Cornwall and Devon the voter turnout was around 80% while the turnout was only 60% in Northern Ireland. Clearly, irreconcilable differences. Obviously, the Irish don't believe in Democracy.
Conchobar wrote:The United Kingdom did not vote to leave the EU. England and Wales did. Scotland should get another independence referendum and be allowed to stay in.
52% of people in the UK voted to leave. Drawing a little line around all the areas in which a majority voted Remain doesn't change the fact that the majority of people in the country voted Leave.
Presumably you are also advocating referendums for London, Manchester and other boundaries within which a majority of people voted Remain?
Of course not, although I do have sympathy for the people of London. But that's a stupid comparison to make. I'm not the one drawing the lines, the lines are already there. The fact is the UK is a union of four distinct countries. And the results of this referendum show a clear divide between the wishes of Scottish & Irish people compared to English people.
England: Leave 53.4% - Remain 46.6%
Northern Ireland: Leave 44.2% - Remain 55.8%
Scotland: Leave 38.0% - Remain 62.0%
Do you ever get the feeling that knowing who voted which way in certain arbitrary borders is an entirely media-generated story? I think they are taking you for a spin. It doesn't matter what "Scotland" picked anymore than it matters what the people in the Orkneys picked. If the Orkneys were 90% Remain do you think they would separate from Scotland? All the people on Charing Cross road voted to remain - time for separatism! Don't fall to their tricks concho.
Doom, you are talking like you actually know something about these places. Saying Scotland voted stay is very different to saying East Anglia voted remain.
nagerous wrote:Doom, you are talking like you actually know something about these places. Saying Scotland voted stay is very different to saying East Anglia voted remain.
Literally the only difference is that more people in Scotland have historically gathered around the idea of Scotland as its own individual entity than they have in East Anglia.
If you think it's valid for Scotland and N Ireland to try and leave the UK as a reaction to the vote, you must also think it's valid for London, Manchester, Leeds etc. to break away as independent city states as well. And presumably Wales will leave, but the Valleys will break away from Wales and stay.
nagerous wrote:Doom, you are talking like you actually know something about these places. Saying Scotland voted stay is very different to saying East Anglia voted remain.
Literally the only difference is that more people in Scotland have historically gathered around the idea of Scotland as its own individual entity than they have in East Anglia.
Precisely my point. That's a minor difference that is perpetrated by the powers that be and used against the general populace.
As someone who is mostly Irish and Scots, I can firmly state that most of the people there are borderline MAD. The historical reasons for the anger are, as always, complex.
tzor wrote:As someone who is mostly Irish and Scots, I can firmly state that most of the people there are borderline MAD. The historical reasons for the anger are, as always, complex.
The historical reasons are not in fact historical, they are in fact false.
Ireland was not left to fend for itself by the english during the famine. Somewhat misguidedly, england sent loads of grain, they just didnt know what to do with it. The irish gentry, left their people and went to england for the duration.
Yup, the Irish have a deepseated hatred of the english, because of the irish.
