Czecho Slovak Fragmentation [Quenched]

[Oneyed]

Without any issues commented on this'll be last call on this map, any further issues should be mentioned within the next couple days. After that, quench.

I asked some guys who play this map before changes and after changes and they like it more after changes. so I hope everybody is happy with this map.

Oneyed

[iancanton]

Without any issues commented on this'll be last call on this map, any further issues should be mentioned within the next couple days. After that, quench.

there were only 2 completed 1v1, auto-placement, sequential, escalating, chained, sunny, non-trench games with unlimited rounds (the same settings as my previous analysis), being Game 14818931 and Game 14771871, that used the xml with n2 neutrals and +1 auto-deploy for the two capitals. both capitals were attacked successfully in 1 game and bratislava was the sole capital taken in 1 game. in both games, the first player to take praha or bratislava lost the game. no-one received a bonus from the drop and player 1 won 1 out of 2, which is 50%.

i also analysed 10 completed polymorphic-2, auto-placement, sequential, no spoils, chained, sunny, non-trench games with unlimited rounds, from Game 14875307 to Game 14911644, that used the xml with n2 neutrals and +1 auto-deploy for the two capitals. both capitals were attacked successfully in no games, bratislava was the sole capital taken in 1 game, praha was the sole capital taken in 2 games and both capitals remained neutral in 7 games. in the 3 games where a capital was taken, the first player to take a capital always lost the game. no-one received a bonus from the drop and player 1 won 5 out of 10, which is 50%.

in the 12 games above, praha was ignored in 9 games (75%), bratislava was ignored in 9 games (75%) and both were ignored in 7 games (58%). a negative bonus was awarded in both standard games, but in none of the polymorphic-2 games. the czech kraj bonus was held in 10 games out of 12 (including both standard games), the slovak kraj bonus in 8 games (all 8 were poly-2), the czech town bonus in 3 games (1 standard and 2 poly-2) and the slovak town bonus in 2 games (both standard).

You might want to see what percentage of those who capture an early capital go on to win the game.

in 5 games out of 12, a player captured at least one capital. in all 5 games, the first player to take a capital lost the game, so the success rate was 0%.

could capitals start as n3? is it not too much +1 with 4 towns and +1 autodeploy for region which starts n2?

even with neutrals at n2, auto-deploy of +1 and bonus of +1 for 4 towns, the capitals are unpopular in poly-2 games, perhaps because the first one to take a capital usually loses. if u start the capitals at n3, then u must increase the auto-deploy to +2 to compensate.

I asked some guys who play this map before changes and after changes and they like it more after changes. so I hope everybody is happy with this map.

this sounds promising! it's mainly ur decision as to whether u want to quench the map now (i believe we're ready), wait for more data or change the neutrals and auto-deploy. do u agree with promoting the map now to full live play?

ian.

[Oneyed]

some results of your analysis sonds very good.
I am not happy that capitals are so unpopular and also that towns bonus is so rare held.
also it is interesting that player who take capitalas the first lost each game...

I am fine with move map forward. maybe we should try to doone change for towns bonus from "+1 for every 4 towns" to "+1 for every 3 towns", or "+2 for every 4 towns"?

ian, what a great analysis! thank you

Oneyed

[iancanton]

if u want to change the town bonus, then "+2 for every 4 towns" sounds good. this will make the praha town bonus more easily broken (higher risk and higher reward), compared with "+1 for every 3 towns". perhaps u can also remove the starting neutral for brno because there is no special advantage in holding brno. even with only a neutral of n1, brno is sometimes ignored. not everyone wants to see veveri castle!

http://www.veveri.cz/en/

ian.

[Oneyed]

very nice castle. I never hear about it. did you visit it?

ok, I will change bonus for towns. I can not remember why Brno was codded as n1.

Oneyed

[Oneyed]

last change:
capitals gain +2 for every 4 towns in the same republic.
Brno is not neutral.

[bigimg]http://s2.postimg.org/jyj4bt0xl/840x800_csfr_FINAL2.png[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://s30.postimg.org/fr52w9cip/630x600_csfr_FINAL2.png[/bigimg]

Oneyed

[iancanton]

not everyone wants to see veveri castle!

http://www.veveri.cz/en/

very nice castle. I never hear about it. did you visit it?

yes, although the outside of veveri castle looks better than the inside; u might expect this because its website describes it as one of the oldest and most damaged castles in the czech republic (not as old and damaged as devin castle, of course, so bratislava wins this competition)! the boat trip fom the edge of the city of brno is scenic and very pleasant.

http://www.vyletnicile.cz/en/pastime-an ... nce/?id=27
http://www.bratislavaguide.com/devin-castle-bratislava

i can see only 2 faults with the new xml.

the first is that, having doubled the positive town bonuses, the negative kraj bonuses are too weak now, so it's usually worthwhile to attack someone's capital city, even if holding opposite kraje. this means we'll see less of a fragmentation effect (one czech player against one slovak player) in games. do u agree that doubling the negative bonuses will fix this issue?

the second is very minor and affects only the comments in the xml: u've misspelled positive as postitive.

ian.

[Oneyed]

not as old and damaged as devin castle, of course, so bratislava wins this competition)!

I live about 10 minutes by car from Devin castle it has roots in Nitra principality (about 800 AD).

i can see only 2 faults with the new xml.

the first is that, having doubled the positive town bonuses, the negative kraj bonuses are too weak now, so it's usually worthwhile to attack someone's capital city, even if holding opposite kraje. this means we'll see less of a fragmentation effect (one czech player against one slovak player) in games. do u agree that doubling the negative bonuses will fix this issue?

ok. I think we have two possibilities here:
doubling negative bonus. or
make +1 for 3 towns.

I am afraid that doubling negative bonus brings us to extreme. but in another hand the fragmentation would have bigger effect.

the second is very minor and affects only the comments in the xml: u've misspelled positive as postitive.

ian.

fixed.

thanks ian.

Oneyed

[RedBaron0]

Just so I know for sure, the files in the above post are current, yes?

[Oneyed]

Just so I know for sure, the files in the above post are current, yes?

yes. but not definitely, I must find any solution with ian about negative bonus/town bonus.

Oneyed

[RedBaron0]

Just making sure the files are right before I test them out and kick hem up to the big man.

[iancanton]

having doubled the positive town bonuses, the negative kraj bonuses are too weak now, so it's usually worthwhile to attack someone's capital city, even if holding opposite kraje. this means we'll see less of a fragmentation effect (one czech player against one slovak player) in games. do u agree that doubling the negative bonuses will fix this issue?

ok. I think we have two possibilities here:
doubling negative bonus. or
make +1 for 3 towns.

I am afraid that doubling negative bonus brings us to extreme. but in another hand the fragmentation would have bigger effect.

if we choose +2 for 4 towns or +1 for 3 towns, then doubling the negative bonus might be exactly what we need to discourage players in 1v1 from immediately attacking their opponent's capital, so that a player can feel more confident about being the first to take a capital city.

if we have +1 for 3 towns then, in 1v1, each player starts with an average of 7 czech and 4 slovak regions. if a player conquers praha, then he'll receive more troops than if his opponent conquers bratislava. however, we can correct this by making praha start with n3 neutrals, compared with n2 for bratislava.

which one do u prefer?

ian.

[Oneyed]

having doubled the positive town bonuses, the negative kraj bonuses are too weak now, so it's usually worthwhile to attack someone's capital city, even if holding opposite kraje. this means we'll see less of a fragmentation effect (one czech player against one slovak player) in games. do u agree that doubling the negative bonuses will fix this issue?

ok. I think we have two possibilities here:
doubling negative bonus. or
make +1 for 3 towns.

I am afraid that doubling negative bonus brings us to extreme. but in another hand the fragmentation would have bigger effect.

if we choose +2 for 4 towns or +1 for 3 towns, then doubling the negative bonus might be exactly what we need to discourage players in 1v1 from immediately attacking their opponent's capital, so that a player can feel more confident about being the first to take a capital city.

if we have +1 for 3 towns then, in 1v1, each player starts with an average of 7 czech and 4 slovak regions. if a player conquers praha, then he'll receive more troops than if his opponent conquers bratislava. however, we can correct this by making praha start with n3 neutrals, compared with n2 for bratislava.

which one do u prefer?

ian.

then doubling negative bonus sounds better, I think. ok will work on it. thanks ian.

Oneyed

[Oneyed]

here are the latest versions of maps and xml.

[bigimg]http://s7.postimg.org/980plng17/840x800_csfr_FINAL2.png[/bigimg]
[bigimg]http://s28.postimg.org/tbxndryu5/630x600_csfr_FINAL2.png[/bigimg]

Oneyed

[iancanton]

the bonuses look correct to me. over to the baron (or gilligan) now!

ian.

[RedBaron0]

Sorry for the wait, RL has been kicking my ass this past week. In fact I'm at work now... Till late Sunday night. I'll get you checked out and over to BG first chance I get on Monday. (Remind me if it starts getting late on Monday.)

[RedBaron0]

Files are up, do me a favor though, next time (if necessary) please don't use parenthesis in file names, it does strange things....

[Oneyed]

thanks RedBaron. no parenthesis more

Oneyed

[iancanton]

the wrong xml file is in play! Game 14948287 shows a negative bonus of -1, not -2.

ian.

[iancanton]

silly me, i was looking at an old game! Game 14972716 shows the correct negative bonus: a player can receive -4 troops only by holding praha and 2 slovak kraje.

2014-10-30 00:14:55 - ganguscalm received -4 troops for holding ?

ian.

[V.J.]

Your bonuses don't work. I'm holding Praha and Towns (2) in game 15120069 and I'm not getting +2

[iancanton]

for +2, u have to hold praha and 4 czech towns, not praha and 2 czech towns.

ian.

[Dukasaur]

So is this every going to be quenched?

[Oneyed]

So is this every going to be quenched?

I like the new bonuses. the last word has ian

Oneyed

[casper]

Played a poly trench game. Too hard to hold *two* krajes in Czech Republic. Once my opponent grabbed *one* kraj in Slovakia, there was not much I could do...