PYP~Mafia [05/21] end game

[Streaker]

Actually... I reread (again) the first post, and it does not specify (unless I missed it) that we cannot ban mafia powers.

Powers that have to be blocked if we can:

-Godfather
-Prince of Darkness (second night phase, anyone?)

So I suggest we take these 2, and add a few killing roles to that list for a balanced pick

-NRA-member
-Vigilante
-CPR doctor (optional instead of vig)

I'd probably vote Prince of Darkness myself (can you imagine 2 or even 3 nightkills, and then back to back night phases?)

[StorrZerg]

Doctor is RNG'd what doctor you get.

[Zivel]

What about the Rock star? Seems a bit op.

[aage]

The list I made for banning priorities after I signed up was this:

CPR doc
Hooker
NRA member
Extractor
Godfather
Roleblocker
Any of the vigs.

Prince of Darkness will be annoying but it's like a Princess role. A second night phase will likely result in another kill, but that's just one kill. Far worse things can happen.
Rock star is irrelevant for mafia because the Town killing weapon of choice is the lynch. Bodyguards don't block the lynch.

I already voted CPR because it's quite useless in the hands of town imo, and allows the mafia to gain an additional night kill that can be proven to be a doc.
Hooker should be high priority too because that role will mess with all power roles. Town will never pick it, because it's way too dangerous. I would like to pick it if I were mafia, because if used correctly it can infect a lot of people in one night cycle.
Extractor is basically an infalliable cop, which makes it semi-useful in hands of town and only a bit useful in hands of mafia. In hindsight, this role has low banning priority and I suggest we don't ban it.
NRA is generaly dangerous.
Godfather is obvious.
Roleblocker is, again, irrelevant in hindsight since we play with too many players for it to matter.
Vigs are always dangerous in mafia hands by the logic of common sense. Town vigs wouldn't be bad.

We should just be voting to limit the killing potential of mafia to a minimum. Voting on "gimmicky" roles such as Janitor, Framer or Politician is highly suspicious imo because they will not largely impact the game, however "strong" they could potentially be in mafia hands. They rely on a very specific set of circumstances while killing roles always kill.

[aage]

I'll respond to this as well.

[spoiler= Veteran]As you are experienced you have the ability to survive 1 hit at night. You can also survive 1 lynch.[/spoiler]
[spoiler= hero]Alas, you are the hero of the land! You are so awesome that if you get lynched, you survive and can pick someone from your voting list to lynch instead. You can only survive two lynches.[/spoiler]The only problem with these two roles is that if one is owned by the mafia and he is lynched, we won't know if we're dealing with the vet or the hero and they can double bluff us into wasting another lynch or a vig shot on them. However, I don't think that staying power is relevant to mafia if we cut down their killing power to size.
[spoiler= NRA Member]You shoot anyone and anything that pokes its head out at you. The first person that tries to visit you each day and night gets killed at the end of the cycle and their action on you does not occur. Listchecks do not count, but everything else does. The suicide bomber overrides your redneck defense.[/spoiler]
Total agreement on this role, it should be banned.
[spoiler=Mad Hatter]You may lay bombs on one player per night (maximum 2). If you are killed you will throw the switch and detonate them, killing the players (if they aren't protected by extra night lives, paramedics, or bodyguards). You may remove them from players at any time during the night to get them back, but if a player is lynched with one on them you lose that bomb for good. Bombs are refunded if the target is killed during the night. When you PM me your target choices you must tell me how your role is stupid and explain how you plan to win the game with brainless carpet bombing. Bonus points if you get a quote from Ace on the matter. Bonus points can be used for a special death scene of your choice![/spoiler]
2 killing power, not really a lot for a 21-player game. Basically this role creates a hostage situation. It will be easier to deal with that than with +1 kill per night.
[spoiler=Vigilante]You have the ability to kill up to two people of your choice at any night phase in the game. You cannot use both at once and may wait to use them whenever you feel like. If your hits ever overlap with a mafia hit I will cancel it and notify you the following day and you will be able to use it again. If your hit overlaps with another Vigilante I will cancel all other hits but the first one and will notify anyone who's hit didn't go through the following day and you will be able to use it again. You will not be told if it was mafia or murderer that caused your hit to be canceled.[/spoiler]
Agreed.
[spoiler=CPR Doctor]BE CAREFUL WITH THAT THING! If the person you are protecting gets attacked then you save them as normal. However if they aren't attacked that night you end up shocking them (they take a hit, this can be blocked by protective roles etc.). You can not target yourself at night.[/spoiler]
Agreed, I think this role is top ban priority.
[spoiler=Assassin]You are an elite assassin who lives for hunting his targets. You have a knife that you can use at any time in the game anonymously and will activate instantly. Just pm me to activate it. However, there are some conditions. When you send in your hit you must do it in such a format: PLAYERNAME and RED and ROLE. If you choose to specify that the player is RED, you must also specify what family they belong to, else the shot fails. For example, StorrZerg RED Godfather or StorrZerg GREEN Modern Detective. The outcome of your assignment depends on whether you get the target right. For example, if you order StorrZerg RED Godfather, and StorrZerg is mafia godfather, your hit succeeds. On the other hand, if his blood is green or he is not the godfather, you fail the assignment. Should you succeed in your hit, you are refunded your kill to use again in the following cycle or later and nobody is the wiser. Should you fail, your target lives but you and your actions will be publicly outed, your intended target outed, and you will permanently lose your powers. Tread carefully Messer Ezio.[/spoiler]This role is a sweet anti-claim weapon, or used in conjunction with any investigative role. It will be lost when a townie decides to feint. The big problem with this role that I only read now and that i should have realised before is that it can be activated at any time, does not seem to care about docs and does not have a limit if used successfully. Town cannot call for a massclaim until this role is dead and nobody is safe to claim until this role is dead... unless we ban it, so we will have to.

As it looks now, my top 4 bans are

NRA
CPR
hooker
assassin

[strike wolf]

What about the Rock star? Seems a bit op.

I am actually going to give you a slight FOS Zivel for this comment. Rock star is a role that wouldn't be nearly as effective in the hands of mafia as it would be in the hands of town. To have suggested it to me means that you either did not think your choice through thoroughly (quite possible which is the only reason this is a slight FOS) or you are scum and looking to get an extra townish role banned.

Aage's points for the most part make sense to me with one or two exceptions (I would add Admiral Ackbar and discount Godfather).

I am going to change my mind about the hero, it would be bad but it probably not as bad as some of the other roles that are available and assassin and a couple others I would put ahead of it.

Damnit. I forgot about the Hooker...Admiral Ackbar would be bad, very bad and I also missed that he could be triggered day or night. It's not really a role that would help town. The hooker likewise would be bad to get.

Amended list:

1. NRA Member
2. CPR Doc
3. Assassin
4. Hooker
5. Admiral Ackbar-This just screams last minute suicide bomb to avoid lynch and could potentially take out a lot of players.
6. Hero
7. Extractor-This is a difficult one because it could be a bit OP for either side. More OP for mafia if they have it in tangent with an assassin.
8. Prince of Darkness
9. Vig roles
10. Vote altering roles

The godfather doesn't worry me as much as most of the other mafia type roles. I may be wrong but in a game where I feel investigative roles are going to be limited, I don't see as much need to worry about roles like Godfather or framer.

[strike wolf]

People are talking like they get to only vote one role out however I am not seeing that specifically mentioned in the rules. Can you confirm that everyone gets to only vote one role and the winner is decided between the 4 with the most votes? Or can each player choose to vote 4 roles?

[Streaker]

People are talking like they get to only vote one role out however I am not seeing that specifically mentioned in the rules. Can you confirm that everyone gets to only vote one role and the winner is decided between the 4 with the most votes? Or can each player choose to vote 4 roles?

I read it as everyone has 1 vote, like in lynching, but the 4 most voted roles go out.

[StorrZerg]

People are talking like they get to only vote one role out however I am not seeing that specifically mentioned in the rules. Can you confirm that everyone gets to only vote one role and the winner is decided between the 4 with the most votes? Or can each player choose to vote 4 roles?

Each player 1 vote.

The top 4 power roles with the most votes gets banned

(suggested you spread out your votes, atm cpr doctor is up for being banned, and thats it)

[jonty125]

People are talking like they get to only vote one role out however I am not seeing that specifically mentioned in the rules. Can you confirm that everyone gets to only vote one role and the winner is decided between the 4 with the most votes? Or can each player choose to vote 4 roles?

Each player 1 vote.

The top 4 power roles with the most votes gets banned

(suggested you spread out your votes, atm cpr doctor is up for being banned, and thats it)

Well that makes things more inconvenient.


I like SW's list, I think Hero should be in the top 4 instead of Hooker as the hooker could screw (literally) mafia as well as town, but I can understand it's high placing. I think we consider banning traitor, there are 21 of us, so 4-6 mafia already, and defections are the last thing we want.

Question, will you be posting a VC for the latest count on the banned roles i.e. CPR Doctor (2); Prince of Darkness (1)

[strike wolf]

Well that's the thing. As far as traitors go. I am going to have to hope that town do not pick those roles to play and honestly I do kind of feel like it would be a selfish, bastard play to pick either of the traitors in this game.

[jonty125]

People are talking like they get to only vote one role out however I am not seeing that specifically mentioned in the rules. Can you confirm that everyone gets to only vote one role and the winner is decided between the 4 with the most votes? Or can each player choose to vote 4 roles?

Each player 1 vote.

The top 4 power roles with the most votes gets banned

(suggested you spread out your votes, atm cpr doctor is up for being banned, and thats it)

Well that makes things more inconvenient.


I like SW's list, I think Hero should be in the top 4 instead of Hooker as the hooker could screw (literally) mafia as well as town, but I can understand it's high placing. I think we consider banning traitor, there are 21 of us, so 4-6 mafia already, and defections are the last thing we want.

Question, will you be posting a VC for the latest count on the banned roles i.e. CPR Doctor (2); Prince of Darkness (1)

My bad, regarding the question, I've seen there is a voting thread, I misunderstood the rules and thought we had to PM our votes for banning.

[aage]

What about the Rock star? Seems a bit op.

I am actually going to give you a slight FOS Zivel for this comment. Rock star is a role that wouldn't be nearly as effective in the hands of mafia as it would be in the hands of town. To have suggested it to me means that you either did not think your choice through thoroughly (quite possible which is the only reason this is a slight FOS) or you are scum and looking to get an extra townish role banned.

Aage's points for the most part make sense to me with one or two exceptions (I would add Admiral Ackbar and discount Godfather).

I am going to change my mind about the hero, it would be bad but it probably not as bad as some of the other roles that are available and assassin and a couple others I would put ahead of it.

Damnit. I forgot about the Hooker...Admiral Ackbar would be bad, very bad and I also missed that he could be triggered day or night. It's not really a role that would help town. The hooker likewise would be bad to get.

Amended list:

1. NRA Member
2. CPR Doc
3. Assassin
4. Hooker
5. Admiral Ackbar-This just screams last minute suicide bomb to avoid lynch and could potentially take out a lot of players.
6. Hero
7. Extractor-This is a difficult one because it could be a bit OP for either side. More OP for mafia if they have it in tangent with an assassin.
8. Prince of Darkness
9. Vig roles
10. Vote altering roles

The godfather doesn't worry me as much as most of the other mafia type roles. I may be wrong but in a game where I feel investigative roles are going to be limited, I don't see as much need to worry about roles like Godfather or framer.

Well, NRA actually isn't nearly as dangerous as CPR, since I discovered on reread that he only kills the first person that targets him. Killing potential of 1 per night, but only if someone targets him.

Godfather (correct me if I'm wrong) can change the way our dead people turn up so it's basically a worse janitor. It doesn't impact the killing power of mafia but will completely mess up town's ability to analyse. I could be wrong, in which case I scrap it off my list (even though I wouldn't suggest it as one of our four definitive bans).

Vig also only has 2 hits, whilst CPR has no limit on his doc "saves". CPR and Hooker definitely are the two most dangerous roles Mafia could have, and incidentally also two of the most useless roles if in town hands.

Admiral I'm not sure on. It seems he just changes someone into the "meth guy" for future use and blows both himself and that someone up. It is situationally bad whilst the other roles (CPR, hooker, assassin, NRA) are consistently bad.

[virus90]

seriously get the hooker out of the game, the sheer possibilities of that thing spreading. even when you kill her the disease may still spread. it would be a very quick game if the hooker was in it.
pretty strange in my opinion that the hooker herself is immune of developing AIDS.. but thats just a sidenote.

im not so afraid of ackbar, since its a suicide thing. might kill 2 but the person doing it will go down aswell. as long as ackbar doesnt survive till the end game it shoudnt hurt too much i guess. especially if no-one checked the person that night. advice to any cop who finds ackbar, wait 1 night saying who it is, so you cant get killed by him.

NRA is another choice of mine, people will "randomly"die unless they first say who they will visit. the NRA member is only killable by lynching and any check will result in a dead. so get that 1 out of there aswell!

CPR-doctor should go aswell, its so usefull for mafia. we dont want that in my opinion.

America can only be used during the day in plain site so we know who it is then

So
1. Hooker.
2/3 NRA
2/3. CPR medic
4. Godfather

that would be my picks and in this order i guess.

[pancakemix]

I'm going to throw my vote behind Godfather, because that role wrecked in GoT. My other choice would be Prince of Darkness, but I think the GF has farther reaching consequences.

[Whatsausage]

Two roles that haven't been mentioned that I believe should be: king maker and bomb man.
1. The king maker. In mafia hands it could be used for all sorts of mischief. It would be a risky play, but they could give it to a townsperson who would use it to kill off a mostly random person, who if turns up town would instantly give the rest of the town a reason to turn on that killer, so if used properly, the mafia could cause two deaths in a day while eliminating the lynch. However it is risky as a smart town would not use it or could kill scum. The more I think about it, the less I think it should it should be banned though, for those risks. Any thoughts?
2. The bomb man. I definitely think this should be banned and am currently leaning towards it heavily. If scum have it and use it properly (eg picking town and a codeword that is unlikely to be said early but could be pushed out later in the game) then it is essentially an extra kill per night, even though it wouldn't show up until all at once later in the game. The only reason I'm not certain they'd choose is that it could easily be wasted by either the targets dying or the codeword being stated immediately.

If I'm being totally honest here, I thought that CPR doc could be a great help to the town if used properly, I hadn't even thought that scum could use it. But at this point, definitely should be banned. (This point meaning it is very unlikely that a good townie would be able to secretly get it and use it)

I do have a couple questions:

For the CPR doc, would someone die if they are targeted for say a mafia kill, but saved but the medic, but also targeted by the CPR doc? Would the order of actions sent in matter? (Ex: If, mafia then cpr then medic, it would be kill,save,save whereas if it went mafia then medic then cpr, it would be kill,save, kill(?))

Not that the answer really matters at this point because it should be banned regardless, I'm just asking for curiosity's sake

The other question:
For the hooker role, the role claims that if the target visits someone else that night they would also get infected. Is this because the hooker would then go with and infect both of them? Or is it truly an infectious disease, where anyone who contacts the infected becomes infected? For example, if Player A is infected night 1 and visits Player B they are clearly both infected, but what about the next night? Do players A and B infect everyone they visit before they die?

This is essentially just a curiosity question as well, since I think the hooker should be banned either way (unless the mafia talking to each other at night means they are "together" and that means if one gets infected they all would )

So in conclusion (aka tldr version ), I believe that CPR and hooker should be banned for sure. I am currently leaning toward bomb man and godfather for the other two bans

FP'd by pcm

[Whatsausage]

OH! I totally forgot about NRA *facepalm*
That would be a definite ban with CPR and hooker
So the last one comes down to godfather and bomb man imo

[StorrZerg]

For the CPR doc, would someone die if they are targeted for say a mafia kill, but saved but the medic, but also targeted by the CPR doc? Would the order of actions sent in matter? (Ex: If, mafia then cpr then medic, it would be kill,save,save whereas if it went mafia then medic then cpr, it would be kill,save, kill(?))

in that case the cpr doctor does not kill, since kp was used. CPR doctor saves as long as a kp was placed on the target.

For the hooker role, the role claims that if the target visits someone else that night they would also get infected. Is this because the hooker would then go with and infect both of them? Or is it truly an infectious disease, where anyone who contacts the infected becomes infected? For example, if Player A is infected night 1 and visits Player B they are clearly both infected, but what about the next night? Do players A and B infect everyone they visit before they die?

yo man its aids, everyone who shares gets it! On serious note, the infected can only spreed the night he gets infected. (only the night the hooker is with someone does hiv spread like wild fire)

[strike wolf]

Does the godfather's ability to affect perceived alignment extend into the player's death?

[virus90]

Two roles that haven't been mentioned that I believe should be: king maker and bomb man.
1. The king maker. In mafia hands it could be used for all sorts of mischief. It would be a risky play, but they could give it to a townsperson who would use it to kill off a mostly random person, who if turns up town would instantly give the rest of the town a reason to turn on that killer, so if used properly, the mafia could cause two deaths in a day while eliminating the lynch. However it is risky as a smart town would not use it or could kill scum. The more I think about it, the less I think it should it should be banned though, for those risks. Any thoughts?
2. The bomb man. I definitely think this should be banned and am currently leaning towards it heavily. If scum have it and use it properly (eg picking town and a codeword that is unlikely to be said early but could be pushed out later in the game) then it is essentially an extra kill per night, even though it wouldn't show up until all at once later in the game. The only reason I'm not certain they'd choose is that it could easily be wasted by either the targets dying or the codeword being stated immediately.

my thought on the kingmaker; i would leave it in, they can make "eachother "king only once and it would be a risk if they gave it to town, dont think its that usefull to mafia could thing of better roles to pick.
and the bomb-man yes could be dangerous but if we just try to use some "late game words" early in the game just to trigger it, i think the odds are not that big that it would be as disastrous. i admit it is risky but its also risky for them since it might be worthless if its triggered (to) soon.

[Metsfanmax]

If mafia had assassin, I think it wouldn't be that dangerous to town (compared to CPR doc and other consistent killing roles) unless they also had role cop.

[grt]

I think definitely CPR Doctor and Hooker should be banned for reasons already mentioned many times already.

NRA takes my third slot and finally I would suggest Hero as when we do want to lynch some scum we don't want them to live another day.

[jwiedlin]

I voted to ban hero.

I can't get over the idea of a mafia player that we would need to lynch THREE times to kill. Talk about anti-hero...

CPR doc and NRA member are also top of my list, but they seem to be getting enough attention.

[charm]

I'll put my vote on NRA or Assassin No need to state why - you guys already know the why!

[legionnare]

Taking a look at the list of roles and what everyone has posted I can't see a better role than CPR Doc and NRA to ban. Not many voted so far. By my rough count:

CPR Doc - 3
Hooker - 2
Gadfather - 2
NRA - 1
Hero - 1

12 votes still to be cast

I will be putting my vote on NRA to make sure it is in the top 4