Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!

[notyou2]

This is me not getting involved in UK politics. Hint hint.

Too bad your leaders won't take a page from your book.

[2dimes]

[saxitoxin]

Australian MPs join in -

[chang50]

Nobody could have been more fortunate than Maggie in having TWO principal opponents like Arthur Scargill,and Gen.Galtieri,who gave her administrations timely boosts just when they were beginning to falter.The former walked straight into a carefully planned ambush in 1984,the latter started a war he could not win and allowed her to play her Iron Lady caricature rallying the troops a la Elizabeth 1st,in 1982.She was brilliant at capturing the zeitgeist,and appealed to the very worst in human nature,a supreme politician..

[ooge]

Nobody could have been more fortunate than Maggie in having TWO principal opponents like Arthur Scargill,and Gen.Galtieri,who gave her administrations timely boosts just when they were beginning to falter.The former walked straight into a carefully planned ambush in 1984,the latter started a war he could not win and allowed her to play her Iron Lady caricature rallying the troops a la Elizabeth 1st,in 1982.She was brilliant at capturing the zeitgeist,and appealed to the very worst in human nature,a supreme politician..

She is not the first politician or last to use a conflict for her advantage.You would think a population would learn at some point.

[Fruitcake]

I am most definitely a child of Thatcher.

When I look back at my formative adult years (1980-1990) the difference between the two dates was and still is, quite staggering.

I witnessed the, literally, hundreds of people sleeping in Waterloo’s cardboard city back in 1990 after 10 years of her rule. I witnessed the riots that took place during the early eighties in Brixton and the nineties over the poll tax (but more of that later).

Each of us will have reacted uniquely to the ‘Thatcher years’. Experience and the application of that experience is a deeply subjective matter for all of us. I am confused by the reaction of the extremes in each camp over Thatcher. Have we forgotten so readily the basis of free will and speech? To misquote Voltaire, “I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Having said the above, I would not defend unnecessary attack and never would. Disrespect reduces all of us in some way, whether it is the attacker or the defender. Using Thatcher’s death as a moment to launch vitriol and poison about her demeans the aggressor more than anything else. I challenge those who are doing so to stand and show what reasonable measures they have taken over the intervening 20 years to roll back what she did. I challenge them to stand and show what measures they have taken over the intervening years to reduce her reputation in any meaningful way. There is something of the callous and the caddish about waiting for the opportunity to attack when it is beyond the reach of defence by the person being attacked.

Glenda Jackson’s attack in the House, to me, was little more than a self-opinionated mediocre actor promoting her wares where she could not be taken to task in any real way. It might be noted that whilst our present hand wringing politicians will interrupt an important trade mission to run back to the House to say their piece, Thatcher would never countenance such a thing, even when her career depended on it!

Saying Thatcher was the greatest PM is not a personal eulogy. It is an opinion of her political successes (or otherwise). We will all have a different view on this. It is not disrespectful to point out that pushing literally millions of people onto sick benefit (to get them off the unemployment register) was a cruel act, the reverberations of which we are experiencing to this day. It is not disrespectful to point out that the annihilation of mining communities led ultimately to some serious social problems existing today regarding families who have not worked for 30+ years. It is not disrespectful to point out that the groundwork of the 2008 financial crisis was laid during her tenure. It is not disrespectful to point out that her selling off of the energy companies provided the bedrock on which todays discontent over the profiteering and fuel poverty we now see in the UK. It is not disrespectful to point out her instigating poll tax in Scotland a year before the rest of the UK is one of the deeper burning drivers for independent referendum today. Finally, it is not disrespectful to point out that her antagonistic attitude towards Europe set the tone that pretty much every administration has had to deal with since, right up to today. The list goes on….

To respond, as some do, with the attitude these criticisms are the mutterings of lefties who would otherwise be left by the wayside of progress is to detract from the legitimate arguments put forward. It is incorrect to strive to stop what is, in effect, becoming something of a beatification of Thatcher along with some serious doses of rewriting history.

However, it is not without sympathy I regard the vitriol and poison being uttered with some distaste. I find that those who use an opportunity such as this to hysterically attack will ultimately regret their ranting, for they will ultimately be ignored (if they could but see it). I also find distasteful the beating of chests by her own Party in, what seems to me to be, a callous plan to garner votes. Their claim that what she did was simply perfect whilst denying the very history of 1990 where it was decided she had lost the plot is little short of venal and, to be honest, little more than I would expect from the present intellectual and moral pygmies we have in office.

History will both show Thatcher to have been a great leader and to have been a poor leader. It will always depend on one’s point of view. But what we should all take strength from is that history will debate her for many generations to come. furthermore, as time passes and emotions fade, so the review and dissection become more objective.

[thegreekdog]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

[BigBallinStalin]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Niiice. I like the new use of that approach.

[chang50]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

[thegreekdog]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

I was just wondering in eight pages why that never came up (I don't actually think that).

[chang50]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

I was just wondering in eight pages why that never came up (I don't actually think that).

A friend mentioned this theory to me yesterday and made a good case for it,glad to see you are commenting on British political threads,outside input can be instructive.Sometimes the locals can't see the wood for the trees...

[AndyDufresne]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

When I first read this, I thought you said sexy, instead of sexist.


--Andy

[crispybits]

I thought it said sexiest

[thegreekdog]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

I was just wondering in eight pages why that never came up (I don't actually think that).

A friend mentioned this theory to me yesterday and made a good case for it,glad to see you are commenting on British political threads,outside input can be instructive.Sometimes the locals can't see the wood for the trees...

Basically, I don't know enough about UK politics from the 1980s to understand why I should or should not like Margaret Thatcher. I bring up the sexist comment only because that would have been brought up in a thread discussing, for example, Hillary Clinton. It would have been "racist" in the context of President Obama. I was shocked (and happy) that it didn't come up in this thread.

[jimboston]

The Thatcher stuff aside, who else can point out a common theme in the photos from Brixton? Surely I'm not the only one who noticed a singular similarity in every single photo set on every single website posted so far ...

The common thread is that they all have bad teeth?

or maybe it's that all Brits who have bad teeth also hate Thatcher?

Did she resist attempts to fluorinate the English water supply?

[crispybits]

Only for the working classes JB

[puppydog85]

Well, you all are no help. I had to go find it for myself. Turns out Paisley called her the "tin woman" because of her stance in some Anglo-Irish accord, of which I have no idea about or inclination to look up.

[Agent 86]

THE BBC will play Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead in its weekend chart show after opponents of Margaret Thatcher pushed the song up the charts. The online campaign to drive the Wizard of Oz song to the No. 1 spot on the UK singles chart was launched by Thatcher critics shortly after the former prime minister died Monday of a stroke at age 87.

As of Friday, the song was No. 1 on British iTunes

[DoomYoshi]

THE BBC will play Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead in its weekend chart show after opponents of Margaret Thatcher pushed the song up the charts. The online campaign to drive the Wizard of Oz song to the No. 1 spot on the UK singles chart was launched by Thatcher critics shortly after the former prime minister died Monday of a stroke at age 87.

As of Friday, the song was No. 1 on British iTunes

What the hell? I come to this thread to find out whether or not they played the song, and you post stuff in future tense from the past. Now I have to actually check the newsfeeds. Yargle.

[Shannon Apple]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

I was just wondering in eight pages why that never came up (I don't actually think that).

A friend mentioned this theory to me yesterday and made a good case for it,glad to see you are commenting on British political threads,outside input can be instructive.Sometimes the locals can't see the wood for the trees...

Basically, I don't know enough about UK politics from the 1980s to understand why I should or should not like Margaret Thatcher. I bring up the sexist comment only because that would have been brought up in a thread discussing, for example, Hillary Clinton. It would have been "racist" in the context of President Obama. I was shocked (and happy) that it didn't come up in this thread.

This is a good point though. I think sometimes when a woman does something vile or undesirable, it is perceived as being worse. I am not sure if you could call it sexist exactly, but society does have certain expectations of gender on a subconscious level. I was just a child when Thatcher was in power, so I barely remember.

However, our government across the way are trying some of that shit right now like bringing in pole taxes. They are putting a minumum of 357 euro tax on some of the lowest value homes. People can't afford that and they are doing it under the guise of "getting Ireland back on it's feet." They are just as bad as her in some ways but they aren't getting villified for it... yet! i think the British people have more backbone than the Irish. Fair play to them for standing up to her!

[Fruitcake]

I think people that hate her are sexist.

Could be true on a subconscious level.Female child murderers are always villified more than male one's,as borne out by the public revulsion at the Hindley Brady murders in Britain nearly 50 years ago.Myra Hindley became a byword for evil.

I was just wondering in eight pages why that never came up (I don't actually think that).

A friend mentioned this theory to me yesterday and made a good case for it,glad to see you are commenting on British political threads,outside input can be instructive.Sometimes the locals can't see the wood for the trees...

Basically, I don't know enough about UK politics from the 1980s to understand why I should or should not like Margaret Thatcher. I bring up the sexist comment only because that would have been brought up in a thread discussing, for example, Hillary Clinton. It would have been "racist" in the context of President Obama. I was shocked (and happy) that it didn't come up in this thread.

This is a good point though. I think sometimes when a woman does something vile or undesirable, it is perceived as being worse. I am not sure if you could call it sexist exactly, but society does have certain expectations of gender on a subconscious level. I was just a child when Thatcher was in power, so I barely remember.

However, our government across the way are trying some of that shit right now like bringing in pole taxes. They are putting a minumum of 357 euro tax on some of the lowest value homes. People can't afford that and they are doing it under the guise of "getting Ireland back on it's feet." They are just as bad as her in some ways but they aren't getting villified for it... yet! i think the British people have more backbone than the Irish. Fair play to them for standing up to her!

Fascinating Shannon. I have to admit to being very busy watching the eastern end of Europe so closely recently I have not been keeping up with developments in Ireland. It is something of a shame that when your country voted against both the Nice and Lisbon treaties, your Politicians (under instruction from Brussels) forced another vote, and threatened yet another, until, the vote was 'yes'. Mind you, we didn't even get the chance to vote as Gordon brown ignored his own party manifesto pledge and rammed them through our Parliament so I am not sure who was screwed more, the Irish or the British....I suppose both really as neither got what the people wanted only what the politicians wanted. However, as I am sure you will have been a part of, there was ultimately a vote last year with something around a 60/40 split in favour of the Stability Treaty (although fewer than half the eligible voting population actually cast), which did include further measures to reflect the difficult financial position Ireland found itself in.

Moving to your other point, I am interested to have some understanding on how you perceive the British people stood up to Thatcher (when she was in power) rather than standing up and being brave against the dead person she now is.

[Dukasaur]

I was in London in 1977. The trains were late, the buses broke down en route, the phones didn't work, the toilets were plugged. Service in the restaurants was so slow that everyone returned late from lunch, but nobody cared because they weren't really expected to work when they returned, anyway. Everything was ill-maintained and in disrepair, and nobody seemed to care.

One one street with three out of four telephone boxes out of service, we saw a serviceman calmly sleeping in his truck. In our hotel, there was no hot water because the boiler was out. We found the maintenance man sitting in the lobby watching TV. Yes, he knew about the boiler. No, there wasn't anything he could do. Back to his TV show.

As an Anglophile, I was horrified that this once-great nation which had brought civilization to three-quarters of the planet could not maintain civilization on its own home turf. We had spent the previous two weeks in France, and although hard work isn't on anyone's priority list in France, it's sad but true that the work ethic in England was ten times worse than in France.

I know most of the people in this forum are youngsters who have no idea what life was like in the '70s and think I'm probably making this up. We live in a right-wing world now, where the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction and workers are again being exploited. But in the 1970s the unions were at the pinnacle of their power, and holding a union card was considered a license to collect a paycheque for eternity without ever having to do any work again.

BOAC had the worst on-time record of any international airline. British Leyland was a synonym for terrible quality -- the Morris Marina rivalled the East German Trabant as the least reliable car on the entire planet. "Made in England" was the cachet of death -- the nation that had invented half of the world's technology was no longer capable of producing it.

Much has been said about the punks and the layabouts on the dole in the 70s, but I think what is far worse is the layabouts not on the dole. All the maintenance men who weren't maintaining anything, all the drivers who weren't driving anywhere, all the engineers who weren't engineering anything, all the cooks who weren't cooking and the servers who weren't serving. Millions and millions of people going to "work" for 40 hours and collecting a paycheque but spending most of their 40 hours jerking off and watching TV. Basically the lifestyle that is now reserved for bankers, priests, and politicians.

I won't defend everything that Thatcher did, but there's no doubt that the core of her message -- that you can't call yourself "working class" if you don't intend to do any work -- was something that desperately needed to be said. I think England would have continued its slide to third-world status if someone hadn't come along and given the unions a kick in the ass.

[Pedronicus]

[bigimg]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8115/8649284528_e08e7fb651_b.jpg[/bigimg]

This is how far we got with a "The Witch is Dead" wall, before the old bill turned up. Someone had rung them to complain and they "encouraged" us to stop.

[MeDeFe]

Any chance of it getting finished in a cloak-and-dagger operation?

[Symmetry]

Interesting that the Conservatives have pressured state media into censoring the song in a move more reminiscent of Communist countries.