I have a little time today, so I took about 2 hours going through each of these linke provided by greekdog illustrating that while these links really included little information, they absolutely don't dispute my claims
I HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY OF MY OWN INDEPENDENT RESEARCH/LINKS... only those greekdog provided, and references cited within those links provided by greekdog. (and my initial comment was that to see I was correct would require actually looking that the data cited.. so basically a 100% win for me and greekdog continuing to ignore reality).
(which, to reiterate, are primarily that the term "abortion" includes miscarriages, though many claiming abortion should be illegal refuse to admit that IS the definition and that they site statistics without understanding that miscarriages are included in many of the statistics they cite. Second, I say that the vast majority of abortions are not truly "at will", that the term "at will" and "elective" in that context generally means just not an abortion preventing an immediate death in the mother. Secondly, I say that unless and until folks can AT LEAST get their definitions straight, they have no business at all even voicing an opinion on this! Further, it is supremely ironic that so many men simply refuse to acknowledge that this IS a woman's issue about a woman's body and not some machine ).
That last pretending "debate" on whether a newborn could be aborted was among the more digusting and I launched into this because greekdog tried to pretend it was a fully legitimate debate. (and I provide a lengthy set of quotes showing that this is hardly an irrelevant and isolated "question".. but is really just one more attack on legal abortion).
Becuase, whenever this topic comes up, you lapse into "I agree, because of my religion". Becuase your attempt to claim that lack of payment and lack of access are not related.thegreekdog wrote:I'm not talking about religion and I'm certainly not in favor of a law banning abortions. So don't try to place religious and cultural views on me because you don't like the evidence I'm providing you.
Moved from the "aborting newborns" thread.
thegreekdog wrote:I'm talking about whether the facts show that most abortions are done for social reasons or most abortions are done for health reasons. The three websites I've linked to (three vastly different websites in their support or lack of support or neither for abortion) show that well over 70% of abortions are for social reasons, not for health reasons.
No, they actually don't
Here, I am off today, so I will take the time to show you, even though you will no doubt AGAIN dismiss it.
First link .http://women.webmd.com/tc/abortion-reas ... e-abortion
(Web MD... a site that presents very, very basic information)
here is the "data" you claim:
The decision to continue your pregnancy or to end it is very personal.
Each year, nearly 1.2 million American women have an abortion to end a pregnancy.2
The most common reasons women consider abortion are:
Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.2
Inability to support or care for a child.
To end an unwanted pregnancy.
To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.
Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued.
In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.2
Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.
#1. Other than the 9 out of 10 being done in the first trimester, this is just a list of top 5 reasons.
They are NOT in any order. In particular, failure to use birth control often overlaps with inability to care for a child., physical or mental conditions that endanger the health of the woman, etc.
Nothing there disputes anything I have said. at all
In particular, though you don't see "my child died" in there, you won't, becuase that statistic is just not kept... a BIG point I have said over and over again.
Also, though the question was not even asked of participants, when a woman says "cannot care for" or "cannot afford" OR health reasons, the underriding reason is "I want to have more children.. when I AM ready".
OK, but let's delve into the citations in this article. (something you did NOT do!)
Begin with THIS:
http://women.webmd.com/tc/abortion-topic-overview
What is an abortion?
Abortion is the early ending of a pregnancy.
Sometimes abortion happens on its own. This is called miscarriage or spontaneous abortion. But women can also choose to end a pregnancy by getting surgery or taking medicine.
Note that even this site for the non-medical casual user absolutely agrees with what I have said, and been repeatedly derided for by you and others here.
THAT is the definition cited in the above article, so that 1.2 million absolutely DOES include miscarriages!!!
The other citations listed, even those with web links are not available online any more. That might be suspicious, except its pretty standard nowadays for anything to do with science. REAL data, original publications are not put on the web because scientific researchers generally don't have huge amounts of money to do things like put up nice looking websites, or even put much of anything on the web. That's even aside from the fact that a lot are variously proscribed from posting (by their universities, by companies with interest in proprietaries, etc.)
LINK #2
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion ... who.html#2
This one above appears to be a fairly scientific/factual website dedicated, in their words to correcting many myths about abortions. They tackle head on a lot of the "givens" cited by you and others, which leads me to believe you did not actually read much of the site. I again tried to follow the citations, again could not HOWEVER.. I will note that several of them were dually cited in this site and the site above.
This, again absolutely confirms what I have said before"
MYTH: Women have abortions for selfish or frivolous reasons.
The decision to have an abortion is rarely simple. Most women base their decision on several factors, the most common being lack of money and/or unreadiness to start or expand their families due to existing responsibilities. Many feel that the most responsible course of action is to wait until their situation is more suited to childrearing; 66% plan to have children when they are older, financially able to provide necessities for them, and/or in a supportive relationship with a partner so their children will have two parents.8 Others wanted to get pregnant but developed serious medical problems, learned that the fetus had severe abnormalities, or experienced some other personal crisis. About 13,000 women each year have abortions because they have become pregnant as a result of rape or incest.1
Note that wanting things to be OK for the child they WILL have is not the same thing as "just not wanting to have a child".
Also, though you all like to just dismiss this, it will be the woman who has to bear the brunt of this, not the man. Even men who "take responsibility" for the most part are NOT taking FULL responsibiliy. They are not the ones taking physical custody. Further, in our society, it is still much, much easier for a man to get a decent job, even when they have a child, than a woman. People just assume a man will arrange childcare, etc.
Here is one statistic I wish I could track:
There are many myths and misconceptions about who gets abortions, and why. The fact is that the women who have abortions come from all racial, ethnic, socioeconomic, and religious backgrounds. If current rates continue, it is estimated that 35% of all women of reproductive age in America today will have had an abortion by the time they reach the age of 45.
In fact, the number of women who have abortions right now is much more than 35%. They appear to be referring to surgical abortions only, but that is not specified anywhere in the prose... pretty typical and why I said you have to be careful to verify your definitions before citing data, have to actually verify to know what information is really presented.
OK, did a little more digging and got yet more "confusion".
From elsewhare on the National Abortion Federation site:
Definition
A medical abortion is one that is brought about by taking medications that will end a pregnancy. The alternative is surgical abortion, which ends a pregnancy by emptying the uterus (or womb) with special instruments. Either of two medications, mifepristone or methotrexate, can be used for medical abortion. Each of these medications is taken together with another medication, misoprostol, to induce an abortion.
The above, though is NOT the definition used for the 1.3 million abortions cited. I know this because I HAVE seen the original source of that statistic, though I could not, today call it up. Also, if you read through you actually see that what I am saying is correct. The above definition was in an entirely different section of that website, not referenced or linked. I found it doing some digging.
This is among the more disgusting comments, and why I get so angry:
MYTH: Many women come to regret their abortions later.
Research indicates that relief is the most common emotional response following abortion, and that psychological distress appears to be greatest before, rather than after, an abortion.
There are undoubtedly some women who, in hindsight, wish that they had made different choices, and the majority would prefer never to have become pregnant when the circumstances were not right for them. When a wanted pregnancy is ended (for medical reasons, for example) women may experience a sense of loss and grief. As with any major change or decision involving loss, a crisis later in life sometimes leads to a temporary resurfacing of sad feelings surrounding the abortion. Women at risk for poor post-abortion adjustment are those who do not get the support they need, or whose abortion decisions are actively opposed by people who are important to them.10 Learn more about post-abortion issues
See, contrary to what many like to claim, it is not women "simply relizing what they did was wrong" that makes women rethink. It is assholes who insist on baraging them with hald-thought out "morality" and hypocrisy. Yeah.. most of you STILL don't admit that abortion means anything but removing a fully healthy and live child.
Oh, yeah..a nd here is a piece about the funding.
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion ... nding.html
reiterates what I have said before, not really what you claim I am lying about above, so I won't bother posting more than the link. For anyone NOT familiar.. it does give a basic, general rundown of Medicaid, the Hyde amendment, etc. The newere laws are not discussed becuase this is an older article.
Here, the last, unabashedly ultra right site:
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html
first, the numbers:
This roughly agrees with the above count (1.37 million). The differences with the first link (giving a figure of 1.2 million per year in the US) would just depend on the year. They show 1996, which I am just going to accept as correct (though they did not bother to offer a citation at all.. pretty typical for these ultra right sites) Abortions rates are going down, so the smaller number is the newer number. This ABSOLUTELY includes miscarriages and life-threatening situations.
This seems at first glance to dispute the above data. but you have to look at what they are saying:
At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.
52+25+12= 89% of abortions happening within 12 weeks. They claim 11% happen after that, but also note that only 5% happen after 15 weeks and 1% after 20 weeks (20 weeks is about the absolute earliest anything close to viability happens... and to abort at that point requires some pretty serious and impelling reason.). What they do NOT say is if they consider emergency C-sections that go badly to be abortions. (yep, that often IS included!) Technically, medically, they can be considered such depending on the state laws, etc.
Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.
This differs quite a bit from the other site's statistics. Just think about those statistics, though. According to them almost ONE HALF of all women have had or will have an abortion.. REALLY? Then they say that 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had one before.. but other sites say more like 27%. Why the discrepency?
I think even you must admit that the only way 47% of women would have an abortion is if they are really talking about miscarriages. The miscarriage rate IS at the lowest, thought to be about 30%. Its pretty obvious why they would then claim 47% of women had repeat operations. Essentially, they are trying to insinuate or claim that the prior 47% is high becuase it includes so many "repeaters"
EVEN SO.. note that NOTHING THERE ACTUALLY DISPUTES WHAT I HAVE SAID!!!!
EDIT:
Followed some links (a citation from one of their citations) and found the following;
[quoteStudy Design: We combined data on women's pregnancy intentions from the 2006–2008 and
2002 National Survey of Family Growth with a 2008 national survey of abortion patients and
data on births from the National Center for Health Statistics, induced abortions from a national
abortion provider census, miscarriages estimated from the National Survey of Family Growth
and population data from the US Census Bureau.
Results: Nearly half (49%) of pregnancies were unintended in 2006, up slightly from 2001
(48%). The unintended pregnancy rate increased to 52 per 1000 women aged 15–44 years in
2006 from 50 in 2001. Disparities in unintended pregnancy rates among subgroups persisted and
in some cases increased, and women who were 18–24 years old, poor or cohabiting had rates two
to three times the national rate. The unintended pregnancy rate declined notably for teens 15–17
years old. The proportion of unintended pregnancies ending in abortion decreased from 47% in
2001 to 43% in 2006, and the unintended birth rate increased from 23 to 25 per 1000 women 15–
44 years old.] [/quote]
This appears to be where they got that 47% figure, but note.. that is not a 47% abortion rate it is saying that roughly 47% of UNINTENDED pregnancies wind up in abortions. Hard to say for sure that this is where they got their 47%, but that is the only place I see that figure mentioned. If its a cooincidence, its a pretty big one.
In a supreme irony, they actually do provide a link that got me to a couple of the reports cited in the other links you provided. (which is interesting, given this is such a heavily right-wing site... but you claimed thet others were not. Normally such groups don't use the same information. However, in this case, its even more rare than in other issues for people to actually research and verify citations)
This bit here:
INCIDENCE OF ABORTION
• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.[2]
This is a rare statistic, and might seem to at least partially dispute what I said. Except.. they don't clarify that a D and C post miscarriage, etc is going to be listed in the statistics for abortions in most (if not all) cases. The miscarriages excluded here aret hose believed to be fully natural miscarriages. Complicating it from the "other side" is that a woman who, for example, drinks a particular kind of tea early in a pregnancy will induce a miscarriage. That would neve show up at all. In many cases, because it would happen before any real determination f pregnancy, it won't appear as a miscarriage OR an abortion. In fact, all reports on miscarriages make note that the earliest ones are almost impossible to even detect. Generally, even the woman will only know (or suspect) she has miscarried because there will be a lot of extra blood. However, that is not always the case and women's cycles can vary a lot anyway. In my case, I only bothered to find out because of the rH situation. I had to get the vaccination after each miscarriage past about 8-9 weeks. (before that there was not any real blood in the fetus, so the potential for a reaction was nil... even at 12 weeks, it was very slim, but my doctor and I operated with an abundance of caution).
some other statistics:
SAFETY OF ABORTION
• The risk of abortion complications is minimal: Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[11]
• Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[12]
• Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other cancers.[12]
• In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[13]
• The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[14]
• Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[15]
• Teens are more likely than older women to delay having an abortion until after 15 weeks of pregnancy, when the medical risks associated with abortion are significantly higher.[15]
NOte in particular that 58% wanted to have an abortion earlier, but had to wait for funding or just to make arrangements like finding a doctor to do the procedure.
FINALLY, though this gets to a couple of other threads, here it is, from a very right wing source, pretty well spelled out:
Conclusions: Since 2001, the United States has not made progress in reducing unintended
pregnancy. Rates increased for nearly all groups and remain high overall. Efforts to help women
and couples plan their pregnancies, such as increasing access to effective contraceptives, should
focus on groups at greatest risk for unintended pregnancy, particularly poor and cohabiting
women.
Providing birth control absolutely DOES reduce abortions!
TO CONTINUE
thegreekdog wrote:You are basing your entire position on false information. I'm trying to correct that information. If you have different information, post the links to data that shows that most abortions are done for health reasons and not for social reasons. If you don't have those links or that data, please stop.
No, you are trying to persist in presenting false information and AGAIN refusing to do more than pull up a couple of links that really don't show what you claim they do.
Yet another source:
A whole spiel on TRAP legislation, pretty much outlining how so much of these "utterly unrelated" and "perfectly reasonable" laws are really intended to simply eliminate access to abortions..
What is a TRAP bill?
TRAP stands for Targeted Regulation of Abortion Providers. TRAP bills single out abortion providers for medically unnecessary, politically motivated state regulations. They can be divided into three general categories:
•a measure that singles out abortion providers for medically unnecessary regulations, standards, personnel qualifications, building and/or structural requirements;
•a politically motivated provision that needlessly addresses the licensing of abortion clinics and/or charges an exorbitant fee to register a clinic in the state; or
•a measure that unnecessarily regulates where abortions may be provided or designates abortion clinics as ambulatory surgical centers, outpatient care centers, or hospitals without medical justification.
What is the purpose of a TRAP bill?
TRAP bills stigmatize and burden abortion providers and are calculated to chip away at abortion access under the guise of legitimate regulation. These measures are often introduced by abortion opponents who claim that abortion is an unsafe and unregulated procedure. By implying that abortion clinics are uniquely dangerous and in need of special regulation, such bills recklessly promote an unfounded fear that abortion is unsafe. Abortion is in fact one of the safest medical procedures provided in the United States.
Many TRAP bills grant broad authority to the state department of health to develop structural and staffing requirements for abortion clinics. Often, the resulting regulations are based on existing hospital guidelines including specific dimensions for procedure rooms and hallways, doorway widths, and complex ventilation systems. Some regulations mandate what types of medical professionals must be on staff, assign certain duties to various staff members or require patient evaluations that are not medically necessary. These types of regulations are not medically justified. Abortion has an outstanding safety record. Instead, these regulations create a large burden for small outpatient clinics. Clinics can be forced to extensively remodel and hire new staff or even close entirely, resulting in women having to travel great distances to obtain abortion care.
What are the real facts?
Abortion is very safe.
Abortion is one of the safest and most commonly provided medical procedures in the United States. Fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication requiring hospitalization.1 In the U.S., more than 90% of all abortions are provided in outpatient facilities such as doctors' offices and clinics. Credit for the outstanding safety record of abortion care is attributed to the specialized quality care given and received in these facilities. Since the legalization of abortion in 1973, the provision of abortion services in the U.S. has become a public health model for the rest of the world. There is no evidence that abortions would be safer in another setting, or that abortions are performed inadequately in outpatient facilities.
Abortion is already regulated.
All health care facilities, including abortion providers, are required to comply with a variety of federal and state regulations. These include the federal Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments (CLIA), Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), and Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) requirements, as well as state and local regulations including building and fire codes. All medical professionals, including physicians and clinicians who work in abortion care, are required to maintain professional standards and licenses and complete continuing medical education courses.
NAF and other groups work to ensure safe, quality abortion care.
The National Abortion Federation, the professional association of abortion providers, has established evidence-based Clinical Policy Guidelines which help ensure the highest standards of quality care. These guidelines are available on the NAF website at http://www.prochoice.org.2 Other medical organizations, such as Planned Parenthood Federation of America and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, have also established professional guidelines for abortion clinics.
What is the impact of TRAP laws?
Enactment of this type of legislation discourages health care providers from offering abortion care and can make provision very burdensome and/or expensive for smaller providers. This exacerbates the provider shortage that already exists in the United States. In 2000, 87% of counties in the U.S. did not have a single abortion provider, and this number rose to 97% for non-metropolitan counties.3 In addition, mandated staffing requirements and qualifications that often appear in TRAP bills restrict clinicians' autonomy by tying them to a particular hospital within a certain distance of the clinic, which unnecessarily limits the ability of providers to travel to serve underrepresented populations.
How prevalent are TRAP laws?
Currently, at least 34 states have some type of TRAP law. Each year, state legislatures across the country introduce new TRAP provisions or modify their existing regulations. In 2005, twenty-one states introduced TRAP bills, and four of these bills were enacted. As these restrictions continue to build on each other, it becomes more and more difficult for abortion providers to remain open and for women to safely access their full range of reproductive health care services. Activists must be vigilant to ensure that these targeted regulations do not force clinics to close and deny women access to safe and legal abortion services.
OH WAIT, new low in links.
Here is the entire article found under this heading "Evidence does not matter in
[http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2006/feb/060216Aquote]News
Print Article | Email Friend | Reprint Permissions “Evidence Doesn’t Matter” in APA Abortion Advocacy[/quote]
