Holy Roman Empire 1648

[oaktown]

I'm cool with all of your comments above in terms of what you want to change, not change.

For this I'll make a poll
either

+1 first set of three
+3 each following set

Bavaria (Electors)
Preussen (Prussians)
Spanische Niederlande (Spaniards)
Österreich (Austrians)
Münster (Bishops)
starts neutral

I voted for neither... I think that coding the cannons as starts is a more interesting option, as doing so wouldn't interrupt any of the current features of this map (which are quite good).

Option 1: I think you had it right with the +2 bonuses for the cannon sets. +2 seems appropriate for the map and for the size of the bonuses, and it's easy to explain in the legend and easy to understand as a player.

Option 2: Right now I believe you have 42 territories; coding five cannons neutral means you are down to 37, which is an awkward start. 37 means a four or six player game will have 6 neutrals to start, a five or seven player game will have 5, and an eight player game will start with 10 neutrals across the board. And you wouldn't even need to code all three cannons in each set - you could code just two in each set and the third would be assigned randomly, maintaining the possibility of a player getting two cannons in one set.

[iancanton]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

i like this solution the best (although it's not in the poll), with 1-4-7-10 second.

the option for 5 starting neutrals will make a map of 37 starting territories, which is a very bad number for 2-player games (the most common type) because the first player can reduce the second player's deployment to 3 armies if he wins only one of his territories.

ian.

[grayhawke]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

i like this solution the best (although it's not in the poll), with 1-4-7-10 second.

the option for 5 starting neutrals will make a map of 37 starting territories, which is a very bad number for 2-player games (the most common type) because the first player can reduce the second player's deployment to 3 armies if he wins only one of his territories.

ian.

I voted for the bonus change but must agree with iancanton, coding the cannons into start positions seems the better course. I dislike the neutrals idea, and leaving the bonus alone means, I think, that there need be no changes to the two maps, just the xml.

[pamoa]

code ALL of the cannons into three starting positions. In a three player game each player will start with one cannon of each color; in a two player game each player with start with one cannon of each color and the remaining third will be split among the two players and the neutral; in games with four or more players the start tags will be ignored which is fine since the odds of dropping a bonus are lower in larger games anyway, and if one player does drop a bonus it is easier for multiple players do do something about it.

I'm not against it but can someone show how you code it and i'll add the option to the poll

[pamoa]

Poll result:
How should we adapt the gameplay for reducing the guns bonus advantage in the initial drop?

1/5 - changing GUNS BONUS scale in "+1 +4 +7 +10 victory" that would be +1 first set of three +3 each following set
1/5 - making START NEUTRAL one of each set as following Bavaria, Preussen, Spanische Niederlande, Österreich, Münster
3/5 - code ALL 15 guns into three starting positions; 2 or 3 players game each start with one of each color; 4 or more players the start tags will be ignored

As it seems it is the last option can someone tell how it should be

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

or

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... all 15 gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

or

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>a</territory> ... one of each colour of gun territories
   </position>
</positions>

[oaktown]

Alright, here's my understanding of the positions tag...

First, the positions tags will go before the regions in the XML.

Next, I believe the plan was to code ALL of the cannons as start positions, yes? That way in a three player game each player will drop one of each color, and in a two player game you could drop 2. I believe it works like this (and I don't the names of the guns, so bear with me) with three "positions" and five guns in each position, as follows:

Code: Select all

<positions>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun X</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun X</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun Y</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun Y</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Electors Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Prussians Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Spaniards Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Austrians Gun Z</territory>
      <territory>Bishops Gun Z</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

If I'm incorrect, I hope that yeti_c or somebody with a better handle on this can jump in.

[yeti_c]

If the idea is to only affect 2 or 3 player games - then this will work perfectly.

Note that in a 2 player game the third position will be randomly assigned as per normal drop conditions. (i.e. will be added back into the pot of normally assigned territories.)

C.

[pamoa]

I coded it like this, also changed Hinterpommern coordinates and send it to lack

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Sachsen</territory>
      <territory>Preußen</territory>
      <territory>Mailand</territory>
      <territory>Österreich</territory>
      <territory>Trier</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Bavaria</territory>
      <territory>Hinterpommern</territory>
      <territory>Spanische Niederlande</territory>
      <territory>Tirol</territory>
      <territory>Münster</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Böhmen</territory>
      <territory>Brandenburg</territory>
      <territory>Franche Comté</territory>
      <territory>Ungarn</territory>
      <territory>Salzburg</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

entire code

[oaktown]

No comments since the code change? Does this mean folks are happy with the starts?

[pamoa]

No comments since the code change? Does this mean folks are happy with the starts?

It seems so, or they are all gone to play other maps....

[grayhawke]

No comments since the code change? Does this mean folks are happy with the starts?

it's not the starts i'm having trouble with - it's the finishes! still haven't managed a win!

[oaktown]

As there haven't been any concerns since the starts were reworked, I'm asking the monkey to lift the BETA from this one.

[pamoa]

[yeti_c]

Great work Pamoa.

C.

[Gilligan]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you couldn't drop all of the same color cannons on the first turn?

[grayhawke]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you couldn't drop all of the same color cannons on the first turn?

I think that's only true for 2 or 3 player games. It can still happen with 4 or more players.

[pamoa]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought you couldn't drop all of the same color cannons on the first turn?

it should be like this see the code below
what was the game you had the problem

Code: Select all

<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Sachsen</territory>
      <territory>Preußen</territory>
      <territory>Mailand</territory>
      <territory>Österreich</territory>
      <territory>Trier</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Bavaria</territory>
      <territory>Hinterpommern</territory>
      <territory>Spanische Niederlande</territory>
      <territory>Tirol</territory>
      <territory>Münster</territory>
   </position>

   <position>
      <territory>Böhmen</territory>
      <territory>Brandenburg</territory>
      <territory>Franche Comté</territory>
      <territory>Ungarn</territory>
      <territory>Salzburg</territory>
   </position>
</positions>

[Gilligan]

Well, take a look at the game because I am unfamiliar with that part of XML.

2009-06-11 07:06:57 - Game has been initialized
2009-06-11 15:09:34 - Gilligan received 3 troops for 10 regions
2009-06-11 15:10:02 - Gilligan deployed 3 troops on Bavaria
2009-06-11 15:10:06 - Gilligan assaulted Salzburg from Bavaria and conquered it from dtellis
2009-06-11 15:10:14 - Gilligan assaulted Böhmen from Bavaria and conquered it from AfroDwarf
2009-06-11 15:10:22 - Gilligan reinforced Böhmen with 2 troops from Österreich
2009-06-11 15:10:24 - Gilligan ended the turn and got spoils
2009-06-12 01:00:28 - dtellis received 2 troops for holding Spaniards

Game 5060991

[grayhawke]

Like I said, for 4 or more players, it can be that a player is dropped a set. With 4 players it will happen in about 19% of games.

[pamoa]

me neither am I familiar with this features of xml
I did what I was told
is it because there is only 3 set of starting positions coded ?

[grayhawke]

me neither am I familiar with this features of xml
I did what I was told
is it because there is only 3 set of starting positions coded ?

Yes, I believe that's the case. This prevents any player starting with a set in 2 and 3 player games (where otherwise the odds were roughly 1 in 3 for a set to be dropped). For 4 or more players it was decided that the odds of dropping a set were acceptable and any advantage minimal with the larger number of players.

Approximate odds are : 4 player - 1 in 5; 5 player - 1 in 8; 6 player - 1 in 11; 7 player - 1 in 17; 8 player - 1 in 33.

[Calidrmr]

I have a game where the game has just started, nobody has taken a turn, but red only got 1 army dropped on Bavaria. Game 10167556

[Gilligan]

I have a game where the game has just started, nobody has taken a turn, but red only got 1 army dropped on Bavaria. Game 10167556

Perhaps red already went, and the game log was still bugged.

[pamoa]

can't be of any help
the code is correct and work perfectly until now
maybe ask some tech assistant

[Calidrmr]

it's the game log, it isn't showing me or red's turns, just pink's right now...i will submit a bug report...thanks all!