TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

[pamoa]

Well, reducing any of the intermediaries or even all of them would speed the game flow, but personally I think the opposite of what you were suggesting- to make the British intermediaries 1s and not the French or Spanish- because the British bonuses are harder to get in the first place. In other words, by making the French & Spanish intermedaries 1s, you'd simply be making the already quicker bonuses easier still to acquire. This would make the British ships more of a neglected part of the game, I feel. Whereas 1s for the British areas would make these somewhat unattractive bonuses more reasonable, and thus open up other avenues rather than favoring one over another... does that make sense?

the problem was not how to build bonuses but how to break them
now you can have French or Spanish bonuses quite well protected behind those intermediaries 3's
and with a good drop and the first hand it is an advantage it can take two rounds to break
and two rounds "hands free" is a big advantage on CC

[cairnswk]

Well, reducing any of the intermediaries or even all of them would speed the game flow, but personally I think the opposite of what you were suggesting- to make the British intermediaries 1s and not the French or Spanish- because the British bonuses are harder to get in the first place. In other words, by making the French & Spanish intermedaries 1s, you'd simply be making the already quicker bonuses easier still to acquire. This would make the British ships more of a neglected part of the game, I feel. Whereas 1s for the British areas would make these somewhat unattractive bonuses more reasonable, and thus open up other avenues rather than favoring one over another... does that make sense?
-- Marshal Ney

MarshalNey, sorry that you probably didn't pick up on where this conversation was coming from....

in many games (not all) in 1v 1 mode only, some players get to start with a bonus on the French or Spanish Weather or Lee lines; those with a bonus do not necessarily get to go first.
Dim offered that it would be better to reduce the imtermediaries to 1 instead of 3 across the board.
I pointed out that this would also benefit the player with the bonus.
Then i offered to reduce only the french and spanish intermediaries to 1 and leave the british on 3.
This was favoured somewhat, the drop to 1 was favoured instead of increasing the french and spanish bonus requirements by 1. or by adding other neutrals to the board.
So i am not sure if your answer applies to all of this i have just mentioned.
as pamoa states, the problem is how to break the engine from awarding a bonus on the drop in 1v1 games.

[MarshalNey]

Ah sorry, I should have read backwards another page

But in any case, I'm not sure that I understand how the neutral 3s on the intermedaries are protecting bonus drops.

For dropping a bonus (French or Spanish), a player would have to have most of the ships on that side of the line. Also, the intermedaries seem to be mostly barriers between ships within a bonus, not from ships bordering the bonus. The only thing that reducing the intermedaries seems to do is to facilitate movement about the map (of which I'm in favor in any case).

To use more concrete numbers, all of the French and Spanish bonuses except for the Spanish Weather Line have 3 or 4 borders directly with another ship (some via bombardments) in a worst-case scenario (the most protected situation). I'm curious to know what situations occured where a lower intermediary value would have helped to any significant degree. Rather, I'm more of the opinion that lower intermedaries where the bonus is being dropped would simply help a player soldify their bonus through consolidation and reinforcement.

Also, I should point out that only in 1v1 games can I picture the inherent borders to these bonuses not being a vulnerable point, because of the high number of random neutrals. With 3 players or more, these bonuses should be breakable with sufficient determination on the part of opponents.

All that said, it's never a good thing when bonuses are being consistently dropped, so perhaps your original idea of inserting some more neutrals (or using starting positions as we're seeing with the Rail Asia map to guarantee that the bonuses are split) would be best.

-- Marshal Ney

[Frito Bandito]

I don't understand the bonus that showed for my opponent, he only held Algesiras center, aft, and F10,.. yet showed a bonus of 5?

Fun map (if I ever figure it out)..

[cairnswk]

I don't understand the bonus that showed for my opponent, he only held Algesiras center, aft, and F10,.. yet showed a bonus of 5?

Fun map (if I ever figure it out)..

Frito Bandito...your opponent may have held Algersiras bow and stern (for +2) and got the other 3 from normal deployment. Yes?

[Frito Bandito]

http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=9746023

here it is again, not bow & stern?? I don't think...

[Frito Bandito]

oh, wait I see, thought it was all one ship

[cairnswk]

Ah sorry, I should have read backwards another page

But in any case, I'm not sure that I understand how the neutral 3s on the intermedaries are protecting bonus drops.

For dropping a bonus (French or Spanish), a player would have to have most of the ships on that side of the line. Also, the intermedaries seem to be mostly barriers between ships within a bonus, not from ships bordering the bonus. The only thing that reducing the intermedaries seems to do is to facilitate movement about the map (of which I'm in favor in any case).

To use more concrete numbers, all of the French and Spanish bonuses except for the Spanish Weather Line have 3 or 4 borders directly with another ship (some via bombardments) in a worst-case scenario (the most protected situation). I'm curious to know what situations occured where a lower intermediary value would have helped to any significant degree. Rather, I'm more of the opinion that lower intermedaries where the bonus is being dropped would simply help a player soldify their bonus through consolidation and reinforcement.

Also, I should point out that only in 1v1 games can I picture the inherent borders to these bonuses not being a vulnerable point, because of the high number of random neutrals. With 3 players or more, these bonuses should be breakable with sufficient determination on the part of opponents.

All that said, it's never a good thing when bonuses are being consistently dropped, so perhaps your original idea of inserting some more neutrals (or using starting positions as we're seeing with the Rail Asia map to guarantee that the bonuses are split) would be best.

-- Marshal Ney

Thanks MarhsalNey, I'll attend to the neutral additions and lower the intermediaries to 1 this on thursday after this week's uni is out of they way.

[cairnswk]

Version 62 Beta adjustments

1. intermediaries changed to 1 (from 3)

2. Extra 3 neutrals added to:
San augustin (S)
Formidable (F)
_____________
Forgeaux (F)
Montanes (s)

3. Neutrals on Britannia and Spartiate have moved to Euralys and Orian to make that bonus a little hard to get up the top in the Weather Line

4. Weather and Lee Line indicators have been added to the map as per requested by MarshalNey.

New neutral indicator


Small

Large
[bigimg]http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282/cairnswk/trafalgar/trafalgar_V62Lcd.png[/bigimg]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V62Scd.png
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282 ... V62Lcd.png
XML: http://h1.ripway.com/cairnswk/_Trafalgar_V62.xml

[thenobodies80]

The files were sent to lackattack.

[cairnswk]

The files were sent to lackattack.

Oh OK thanks tnb80

[Leehar]

Damn, but there has to be a way to stop a guy from dropping a +4 bonus? Two doubles games, and 2 drops for the opponents >_<

A quick read-through is telling me you're trying to make a few more neutral 1's to make for easier breaks? Thats all well and good, but whats to-do if he starts and drops the bonus? (as happened to me?), the easier neutrals to go back to break doesn't really help too much when he's cleared you out?

[cairnswk]

Leehar, thanks for dropping by...with your opinion
You've played two games on Trafalgar..both doubles...both on the initial xml...

in game 9852188 which is up to round 8, below is the first round log, in which it appears as though no-one dropped any bonus...seems to me that everyone had equal treatment of +4 for 13 regions...which is only one more than the normal 3.

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2011-10-07 00:49:50 - Game has been initialized
2011-10-07 19:09:41 - Leehar received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-07 19:10:48 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Defence
2011-10-07 19:10:50 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Belleisle
2011-10-07 19:10:56 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (F) Indomptable
2011-10-07 19:16:15 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Colossus
2011-10-07 19:16:56 - Leehar bombarded (F) Berwick from (B) Defence and annihilated lynch5762's troops
2011-10-07 19:20:15 - Leehar reinforced (S) Bahama with 2 troops from (S) Montanes
2011-10-07 19:20:15 - Leehar ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-07 21:39:36 - jordy2425 received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-07 21:39:41 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:42 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:43 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:44 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:40:20 - jordy2425 reinforced (B) Mars with 2 troops from (B) Tonnant
2011-10-07 21:40:20 - jordy2425 ended the turn
2011-10-08 11:21:05 - White Moose received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-08 11:21:08 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:09 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:10 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:10 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:14 - White Moose assaulted (S) San Francisco de Asis from (S) San Augustin and conquered it from jordy2425
2011-10-08 11:21:18 - White Moose reinforced (S) San Leonardo with 3 troops from (S) San Francisco de Asis
2011-10-08 11:21:18 - White Moose ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-08 13:52:59 - lynch5762 received 4 troops for 12 regions
2011-10-08 13:53:02 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:04 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:05 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:06 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:30 - lynch5762 assaulted (B) Colossus from (B) Mars and conquered it from Leehar
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - lynch5762 reinforced (B) Dreadnought with 2 troops from (F) Achille
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - lynch5762 ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - Incrementing game to round 2

in game 9924140 indeed jordy2425 has dropped an extra initial Spanish Lee Line bonus of +4...

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2011-10-17 02:56:00 - Game has been initialized
2011-10-17 10:53:49 - jordy2425 received 4 troops for holding Spanish Lee Line
2011-10-17 10:53:49 - jordy2425 received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-17 10:53:52 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Santa Ana
2011-10-17 10:53:54 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Santa Ana
2011-10-17 10:53:55 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Santa Ana
2011-10-17 10:54:09 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Bahama
2011-10-17 10:54:10 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Bahama
2011-10-17 10:54:13 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Bahama
2011-10-17 10:54:38 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Montanes
2011-10-17 10:54:39 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (S) Montanes
2011-10-17 10:54:48 - jordy2425 bombarded (B) Achille from (S) Montanes and annihilated maasman's troops
2011-10-17 10:55:01 - jordy2425 assaulted (S) San Justo from (S) Santa Ana and conquered it from maasman
2011-10-17 10:57:35 - jordy2425 reinforced (F) Indomptable with 2 troops from (F) Mont Blanc
2011-10-17 10:57:35 - jordy2425 ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-17 16:56:22 - Leehar received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-17 16:57:21 - Leehar deployed 4 troops on (B) Colossus
2011-10-17 16:57:32 - Leehar reinforced (B) Colossus with 2 troops from (B) Tonnant
2011-10-17 16:57:32 - Leehar ended the turn

hopefully by starting one each of spanish and french w/l lines as neutrals, this will stop the rot.
The new xml has not yet been loaded so i am unable to tell if this will do the trick yet.

[thenobodies80]

The map was updated!

[cairnswk]

The map was updated!

Thanks tnb80

[cairnswk]

well. first game with the new conditions 1v1 and opponent gets a bonus.
It looks like its going to have to be starting positions to solve this situation.

[thenobodies80]

Maybe a stupid question, but do you know what is the current percentage of a/any player to start with a bonus?

[cairnswk]

Maybe a stupid question, but do you know what is the current percentage of a/any player to start with a bonus?

no i do not tnb80
unfortunately i don't have the time right now either to go through all 500 or so games to find out.

[thenobodies80]

I was referring to the percentages using this one --> viewtopic.php?f=648&t=84998

[cairnswk]

I was referring to the percentages using this one --> viewtopic.php?f=648&t=84998

yes. somewhere back in the middle of pages Incadenza did that i think. i'll try to find it.

First mentioned here...
by Incadenza

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So I've been playing around with eipi's 1v1 drop probability thingy, and I think you might have a bit of a problem for 1v1s. As it stands, the probabilities come out thusly ( please forgive the formatting):

Continent /Provinces /Held /Chance of Dropping
Br Windward 12 8 0.70%
Fr Windward 8 4 16.63%
Sp Windward 6 3 21.88%
Br Leeward 15 7 10.42%
Fr Leeward 9 4 20.96%
Sp Leeward 8 4 16.63%

That's four very (relatively speaking) high chances of dropping bonuses. Compare to the bonuses that are statistically relevant to the drop on Waterloo:

Continent /Provinces /Held /Chance of Dropping
Chasse 3 3 3.49%
Red Flags 4 3 9.58%
Blue Flags 4 3 9.58%

Also, compare to Gran Chaco on Triple Alliance (3.08%) or even Oceania on classic (.89%).

However, if you go through and bump up the # of ships required for all but the British Windward bonuses, you get this:

Continent /Provinces /Held /Chance of Dropping
Br Windward 12 8 0.70%
Fr Windward 8 5 5.54%
Sp Windward 6 4 7.10%
Br Leeward 15 8 3.91%
Fr Leeward 9 5 8.98%
Sp Leeward 8 5 5.54%

Those odds seems substantially fairer. Otherwise you run the risk of any 1v1 coming down to the drop and little else, which would be bad. I'm not sure what that should so to the actual bonuses (as the bonus calculation tools I have don't seem to be able to do build-a-bonus), but I suppoose at the very least French Windward, British Leeward, and Spanish Leeward could get bumped up one (I'd be disinclined to bump up French Leeward, as it still has the best chances for being dropped).

It's definitely something to chew on, as I can't imagine you'd want 1v1s on this to be essentially a crapshoot.

One solution was to require one of the flagships from each nation to be held also in order to have a bonus.

Then here...by incadenza proosing that the requirements for each bonus be increased by one or two

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Okay, I've had a different potential solution:

Keep the six commanders. All start neutral, say with 3's.

This leaves 55 starting terits.

All bonuses save British Windward require one additional army to take. The bonus amounts could be bumped up in one or two cases. This leaves you with:

Continent /Provinces /Held /Chance of Dropping
Br Windward 12 8 0.66%
Fr Windward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Windward 5 4 3.25%
Br Leeward 14 8 2.34%
Fr Leeward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Leeward 8 5 5.47%

The advantages are thus: with the 3 extra terits taken out of the drop, plus bumping the bonus requirements up a peg, there's a substantially lower chance for a 1v1 player to drop a bonus. Plus with the six commanders, there's 12 potential bonuses. (I suppose each commander could be tied to his fleet bonus for an additional +1 or +1 autodeploy, maybe, but that might take too much legend space to explain properly).

The drawback, of course, if that with 55 starting terits each player will begin with 18.

I know I'm being a pain in the ass about this, but this is one of those maps that I know I'll play a lot if it's good, giving me more than enough motivation to want to get the bonus structure just right.

then here...

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Visually I'm not wild about the dual-terit commanders, but I think they could really help the gameplay....

So with the dual commander terits, that puts the map up to 67 total terits. Okay, let's run through a few 1v1 drop scenarios (for the sake of brevity, I'll refer to the listed bonus structure as "cairns bonus" and my proposed "adding 1 terit to each bonus except british windward" concept as "inc bonus"):

A) No neutrals, cairns bonus -- 67 starting terits, 22 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 14 8 2.66%
Fr Windward 10 4 24.03%
Sp Windward 7 3 26.38%
Br Leeward 16 7 13.45%
Fr Leeward 10 4 24.03%
Sp Leeward 10 4 24.03%
Victory 2 2 10.45%
Royal Sovereign 2 2 10.45%
Bucentaure 2 2 10.45%
Algesiras 2 2 10.45%
Santissima Trinidad 2 2 10.45%
Principe de Asturias 2 2 10.45%

B) No neutrals, inc bonus -- 67 starting terits, 22 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 14 8 2.66%
Fr Windward 10 5 12.97%
Sp Windward 7 4 11.94%
Br Leeward 16 8 6.13%
Fr Leeward 10 5 12.97%
Sp Leeward 10 5 12.97%
Victory 2 2 10.45%
Royal Sovereign 2 2 10.45%
Bucentaure 2 2 10.45%
Algesiras 2 2 10.45%
Santissima Trinidad 2 2 10.45%
Principe de Asturias 2 2 10.45%

C) 1 neutral per commander, cairns bonus -- 61 starting terits, 20 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 13 8 1.44%
Fr Windward 9 4 20.94%
Sp Windward 6 3 21.89%
Br Leeward 15 7 10.50%
Fr Leeward 9 4 20.94%
Sp Leeward 9 4 20.94%

D) 1 neutral per commander, inc bonus -- 61 starting terits, 20 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 13 8 1.44%
Fr Windward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Windward 6 4 7.16%
Br Leeward 15 8 4.01%
Fr Leeward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Leeward 9 5 9.05%

E) both commander terits neutral, cairns bonus -- 55 starting terits, 18 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 12 8 0.66%
Fr Windward 8 4 16.60%
Sp Windward 5 3 15.62%
Br Leeward 14 7 7.53%
Fr Leeward 8 4 16.60%
Sp Leeward 8 4 16.60%

F) both commander terits neutral, inc bonus -- 55 starting terits, 18 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 12 8 0.66%
Fr Windward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Windward 5 4 3.25%
Br Leeward 14 8 2.34%
Fr Leeward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Leeward 8 5 5.47%

So, just looking at this, I'd say options A and B are out, even the steeper bonus requirements leave 10 bonuses with over 10% drop-chance. The problem with E and F is that, with each player starting with 18 terits, that might be a bit too much of a first-mover advantage.

C and D seem to be the best of both worlds: no commanders on the drop, the bonuses are a bit more manageable, and the first-mover is mitigated as much as possible. Of course, I prefer D, nothing over 10% (tho, to be fair, there's not a ton of difference between 9.05% and the 10.45% you see in options A and B), and with the dual-terit commanders, people will still be able to double up on all bonuses save British and Spanish Windward, meaning that with the commanders there'll be 16 bonuses in play, giving lots and lots of flexibility...

Furthermore, I'd put a potential commander neutral terit at only, say, 3 or 4...

[cairnswk]

And then here where that table was used....

Okay, here are the overall drop odds under 2 different scenarios. No, I have no idea why the screengrabs are fuzzy, but then again my computer sucks, so what are ya gonna do....

The first, 1 terit per commander starts neutral:

[bigimg]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/danteca323/61bonus.jpg[/bigimg]

The second, both terits per commander start neutral:

[bigimg]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/danteca323/55bonus.jpg[/bigimg]

Now, the bonus drop odds for 61 starting terits are just brutal. Even in 2v2, three different bonuses have over 10% chance of being dropped by someone.

The drop odds for 55 terits is better, but then there's that whole pesky "starting with 18 terits in 1v1" thing that we try to avoid.

So two options, each with flaws.... but wait, there's a third option, where both terits per commander start neutral, and there are 53 starting terits:

[bigimg]http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/danteca323/53bonus.jpg[/bigimg]

How do we get that, you ask? Well, the history weenie in me recoils a bit at the suggestion, but the risk-playing weenie in me thinks it might not be that bad of an idea: get rid of Britannia and Spartiate (you'll note a commensurate small tweak in the British Windward bonus). Their presence in the actual battle aside, those two terits aren't really bringing a lot to the table here. And if they go the way of the dodo, then the drop bonus odds are manageable, 1v1 players start with 17 terits, and worldpeace draws that much closer to becoming a reality.

Could work. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll step outside to see if I can hear cairns' howl of dismay from halfway around the world.

[DiM]

those are some pretty big odds especially in 2-3 player games

[Leehar]

Leehar, thanks for dropping by...with your opinion
You've played two games on Trafalgar..both doubles...both on the initial xml...

in game 9852188 which is up to round 8, below is the first round log, in which it appears as though no-one dropped any bonus...seems to me that everyone had equal treatment of +4 for 13 regions...which is only one more than the normal 3.

Code: Select all

2011-10-07 00:49:50 - Game has been initialized
2011-10-07 19:09:41 - Leehar received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-07 19:10:48 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Defence
2011-10-07 19:10:50 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Belleisle
2011-10-07 19:10:56 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (F) Indomptable
2011-10-07 19:16:15 - Leehar deployed 1 troops on (B) Colossus
2011-10-07 19:16:56 - Leehar bombarded (F) Berwick from (B) Defence and annihilated lynch5762's troops
2011-10-07 19:20:15 - Leehar reinforced (S) Bahama with 2 troops from (S) Montanes
2011-10-07 19:20:15 - Leehar ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-07 21:39:36 - jordy2425 received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-07 21:39:41 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:42 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:43 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:39:44 - jordy2425 deployed 1 troops on (F) Swiftsure
2011-10-07 21:40:20 - jordy2425 reinforced (B) Mars with 2 troops from (B) Tonnant
2011-10-07 21:40:20 - jordy2425 ended the turn
2011-10-08 11:21:05 - White Moose received 4 troops for 13 regions
2011-10-08 11:21:08 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:09 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:10 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:10 - White Moose deployed 1 troops on (S) San Augustin
2011-10-08 11:21:14 - White Moose assaulted (S) San Francisco de Asis from (S) San Augustin and conquered it from jordy2425
2011-10-08 11:21:18 - White Moose reinforced (S) San Leonardo with 3 troops from (S) San Francisco de Asis
2011-10-08 11:21:18 - White Moose ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-08 13:52:59 - lynch5762 received 4 troops for 12 regions
2011-10-08 13:53:02 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:04 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:05 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:06 - lynch5762 deployed 1 troops on (B) Mars
2011-10-08 13:53:30 - lynch5762 assaulted (B) Colossus from (B) Mars and conquered it from Leehar
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - lynch5762 reinforced (B) Dreadnought with 2 troops from (F) Achille
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - lynch5762 ended the turn and got spoils
2011-10-08 13:54:55 - Incrementing game to round 2

First game Yellow (lynch) got the french bonus I think, luckily I was able to break that.

I can't decipher all these tables for solutions you're offering, but all the best getting it to balance out a bit better. I
t's just a pity because now another guy has gotten another relatively unbreakable french bonus on windward to go with his partners leeward, and it's just a bit tough to develop an effective plan of action when you're pushed so far away so easily

[cairnswk]

those are some pretty big odds especially in 2-3 player games

Yes DiM.
I'm currently examining possibilities in that MrBenn calculator to see what the options might be
given that the intermediaries have been reduced to 1 neutral which is pretty easy to overcome, i'm thinking of increasing the bonus requirements for each region so that there is lesser chance of dropping that 1v1 bonus or any bonus at all.

[cairnswk]

Below is my proposal for new bonuses and neutrals plus a probability calcuator for the drops.

Any thoughts?

[bigimg]http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s282/cairnswk/trafalgar/trafalgarv63probabilityproposal.jpg[/bigimg]