foolish_yeti wrote:I don't think we've seen anything that would show us that socialism is inherently flawed- can anyone think of an example?
The basic fallibilty of human nature?
Not getting into debating human nature and inherent human flaws- this would be a constant in any social system, not just socialism.
Personally I think it's bung, though- humans have survived much longer on a tribal system than we have under capitalism- much much much longer.
DIRESTRAITS wrote:please explain
I'm guessing you want an explanation for how capitalism has shown to be unsustainable?
Well I don't want to go a a huge rant here- but for a single example- one could take a look at something like ecological footprints. As it stands now capitalist societies are living way beyond their, and the planets means. The only reason they are still standing is because they have annexed the resources of other countries. At current population levels, it's estimated there's around 1.8h of useable land per person to survive off of. The States is using close to 10h per person. Any system based on continual growth is just not sustainable- eventually you hit the wall.
everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.
why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why
so by being in a communist society you are immediately industrious and hardworking?
no its just that people have grown up in this greedy and corupt society that to change their minds to anything other then 'make more money so I may be more comfortable then the everyone else' mentality is depressingly improbable. the problem is the longer time goes on the more and more impossible these leftist ideals become. it would have been possible long ago when everyone actually worked. im sure i could round up enough people who would be willing to take part in a utopian society all though perhaps only enough for a small town
And how do you get more money? By working for it, that's how! And I am sure your small town will fail for the same reasons the USSR failed. And I am sure that after one year you will have to build a wall to keep them in. (You can call it the New Berlin Wall)
so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see
"GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.
why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why
Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.
A basic shortening of what I said. good job.
why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture
EXACTLY! Hence why a it wouldn't work.
hence why it wouldnt work on a large scale, rare doesnt mean non-existant
Its been tried numerous times on a small, small scale in late 18th century america (Little Harmony, The Oneida Community). Each one failed and withered away.
DIRESTRAITS wrote:Yes. It helped early man survive. People take care of themselves first. For communism to work Human nature would have to be changed
Historically not true. It was never the "Every man for himself" that happened in communism. Tribal life (the way humans have been living for the vast majority of their existence) was very community based. People think capitalism works because it's all they've ever known, or care to look at in history...when the fact is it hasn't even been around long enough to prove sustainable.
Last edited by foolish_yeti on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anarchy Ninja wrote:so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
But then people begin to think "Wtf mate? The guy cleaning the street has an easy job while slave under the sun 12 hours a day harvesting wheat. Well, I'm just going to half-ass my job and take it slow. I mean its not like i won't get paid as much; money doesn't exist!"
DIRESTRAITS wrote:Yes. It helped early man survive. People take care of themselves first. For communism to work Human nature would have to be changed
Historically not true. It was never the "Every man for himself" that happened in communism. Tribal life (the way humans have been living for the vast majority of their existence) was very community based. People think capitalism works because it's all they've ever known, or care to look at in history...the fact is it hasn't even been around long enough to prove sustainable.
everywhere116 wrote:Anarchy, tell me one thing. If everyone shares the resources, why would they work? If the government takes care of them they have no desire to do thier best. And when everyone does this you have to pay useless workers you cant fire, and your tresury will be depleted. See: The Reagan Arms Buildup.
why would they work you ask, because they are not fat lazy slobs thats why
Yeah, ok. If people don't have to work hard to obtain something, THEY WON'T. There would be no incentive to give your best effort.
A basic shortening of what I said. good job.
why strive? BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS LAZY OR GREEDY!! i would strive i see no reason not to. i strive not to be better then everyone else but to make myself a better person, this is rare in todays culture
EXACTLY! Hence why a it wouldn't work.
hence why it wouldnt work on a large scale, rare doesnt mean non-existant
Its been tried numerous times on a small, small scale in late 18th century america (Little Harmony, The Oneida Community). Each one failed and withered away.
yet like foolish yeti has stated it has worked many more times, all though not ideally it has still worked
Anarchy Ninja wrote: so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
Lets take your example. What if the doctor needs his street cleaned, so he calls the street cleaner. The doctor offers an operation for cleaning his street, but the street cleaner doesnt need an operation, so the street will not be cleaned. Enter money. The doctor offers $20 to have the cleaner clean, and the cleaner accepts.
Why money is better than bartering.
And money is valuable because you can turn it to the mint and they will give you gold. So gold is really the world currency.
"Disease, suffering, hardship...that is what war is all about."-Captain Kirk, from "A Taste of Armageddon"
Anarchy Ninja wrote:so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
But then people begin to think "Wtf mate? The guy cleaning the street has an easy job while slave under the sun 12 hours a day harvesting wheat. Well, I'm just going to half-ass my job and take it slow. I mean its not like i won't get paid as much; money doesn't exist!"
are you saying to work on the street and clean it all day is not difficult? would you like to try it im sure you would find it so easy and pleasant. but yes farming is a difficult job so i doubt that only the farmers would be doing ideally the whole communitie would help them with large tasks or when they are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs
Colaalone wrote:But then people begin to think "Wtf mate? The guy cleaning the street has an easy job while slave under the sun 12 hours a day harvesting wheat. Well, I'm just going to half-ass my job and take it slow. I mean its not like i won't get paid as much; money doesn't exist!"
Jobs don't have to be stagnant- because there is no money involved you are not trapped doing one thing and getting paid a certain amount to do it. There is a certain amount of work to be done in the community and everyone would work to get it done- thus you could be out in the fields for a few hours, cleaning the street for a few hours. Obviously some jobs require a certain amount of specialization, so that would have to be taken into account.
Colaalone wrote:But then people begin to think "Wtf mate? The guy cleaning the street has an easy job while slave under the sun 12 hours a day harvesting wheat. Well, I'm just going to half-ass my job and take it slow. I mean its not like i won't get paid as much; money doesn't exist!"
Jobs don't have to be stagnant- because there is no money involved you are not trapped doing one thing and getting paid a certain amount to do it. There is a certain amount of work to be done in the community and everyone would work to get it done- thus you could be out in the fields for a few hours, cleaning the street for a few hours. Obviously some jobs require a certain amount of specialization, so that would have to be taken into account.
Money does that perfectly.
"Disease, suffering, hardship...that is what war is all about."-Captain Kirk, from "A Taste of Armageddon"
Anarchy Ninja wrote: so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
Lets take your example. What if the doctor needs his street cleaned, so he calls the street cleaner. The doctor offers an operation for cleaning his street, but the street cleaner doesnt need an operation, so the street will not be cleaned. Enter money. The doctor offers $20 to have the cleaner clean, and the cleaner accepts.
Why money is better than bartering.
And money is valuable because you can turn it to the mint and they will give you gold. So gold is really the world currency.
are you saying the street cleaner would never get sick, or perhaps the street cleaners family would never get sick. maybe the street cleaner is like superman and is immune to all disease? ohhh yes isnt gold a useful mineral. its a shiny rock and has absouloutly no usefullness what so ever
How so? The vast majority of funds are in the elite's hands. We have very little control over our own lives. We're paying actors millions of dollars to pretend to be someone else. Athletes millions of dollars to play sports....but the lowly garbage collector or custodian- without whose services the entire system would grind to a halt- and fast- gets paid next to nothing.
Last edited by foolish_yeti on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Anarchy Ninja wrote: so perhaps i do need to rant in capitals and bold for people to see "GIVE WHAT YOU CAN TAKING ONLY WHAT YOU NEED" I.E. MONEY WOULD NOT BE NECCESSARY LIKE A BARTER SYSTEM, WHICH IS, IN MY OPINION BETTER THEN MONEY. WHATS MONEY BUT BITS OF COLOURED PAPER? HOW IS THAT VALUABLE? ITS NOT!! THE STREET CLEANER CLEANS THE STREETS INCREASING THE COMFORT OF THE CITY, THE FARMERS HARVEST THE FOOD WHICH IS SHARED AMONGST THE PEOPLE, THE DOCTORS HEAL THE PEOPLE ETC. ETC.
Lets take your example. What if the doctor needs his street cleaned, so he calls the street cleaner. The doctor offers an operation for cleaning his street, but the street cleaner doesnt need an operation, so the street will not be cleaned. Enter money. The doctor offers $20 to have the cleaner clean, and the cleaner accepts.
Why money is better than bartering.
And money is valuable because you can turn it to the mint and they will give you gold. So gold is really the world currency.
are you saying the street cleaner would never get sick, or perhaps the street cleaners family would never get sick. maybe the street cleaner is like superman and is immune to all disease? ohhh yes isnt gold a useful mineral. its a shiny rock and has absouloutly no usefullness what so ever
Yes, the cleaner will get sick. Will he be sick all the time, no. Will he accept versitile money all the time, yes.
Say that gold isnt worth anything at the New York Stock Exchange. Tell me you wont get an earful about how it is valuable.
"Disease, suffering, hardship...that is what war is all about."-Captain Kirk, from "A Taste of Armageddon"
How so? The vast majority of funds are in the elite's hands. We have very little control over our own lives. We're paying actors millions of dollars to pretend to be someone else. Athletes millions of dollars to play sports....but the lowly garbage collector or custodian- without whose services the entire system would grind to a halt- and fast- gets paid next to nothing.
I do not believe that everyone, regardless of what they do, should be paid the same. So I do not believe that that garbage collector or custodian should be paid as much as a doctor or a lawyer.
Last edited by everywhere116 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Disease, suffering, hardship...that is what war is all about."-Captain Kirk, from "A Taste of Armageddon"
How so? The vast majority of funds are in the elite's hands. We have very little control over our own lives. We're paying actors millions of dollars to pretend to be someone else. Athletes millions of dollars to play sports....but the lowly garbage collector or custodian- without whose services the entire system would grind to a halt- and fast- gets paid next to nothing.
Ok, I agree with you here that athletes and actors should be paid less. But I do not believe that everyone, regardless of what they do, should be paid the same. So I do not believe that that garbage collector or custodian should be paid as much as a doctor or a lawyer.
People get paid what the market values them at. If you have a problem with an actor's salary, don't watch movies
everywhere116 wrote:Yes, the cleaner will get sick. Will he be sick all the time, no. Will he accept versitile money all the time, yes.
Say that gold isnt worth anything at the New York Stock Exchange. Tell me you wont get an earful about how it is valuable.
so would the street cleaner leave the street dirty because the person on that street isnt giving him anything at the time? he would if he is an ungratefull lazy slob but i like to think that that does not cover the eniter human race all though sometimes i wonder...
ok what do you use gold for if it is so useful? whats that nothing but jewllery. all gold does is look pretty what the f*ck is the usefullness of that... "oh yes i see how gold is valuable to society... it ummmm it"
but nothing i say will make greedy capatilists think of anything other then money, or any other system other then that where money, a useless object that does nothing is centre
Anarchy Ninja wrote:ok what do you use gold for if it is so useful? whats that nothing but jewllery. all gold does is look pretty what the f*ck is the usefullness of that... "oh yes i see how gold is valuable to society... it ummmm it"
IT DOES NOTHING!!
Well actually it's heavily used in electronics... we do live in a computer civilization.
everywhere116 wrote:Yes, the cleaner will get sick. Will he be sick all the time, no. Will he accept versitile money all the time, yes.
Say that gold isnt worth anything at the New York Stock Exchange. Tell me you wont get an earful about how it is valuable.
so would the street cleaner leave the street dirty because the person on that street isnt giving him anything at the time? he would if he is an ungratefull lazy slob but i like to think that that does not cover the eniter human race all though sometimes i wonder... ok what do you use gold for if it is so useful? whats that nothing but jewllery. all gold does is look pretty what the f*ck is the usefullness of that... "oh yes i see how gold is valuable to society... it ummmm it"
IT DOES NOTHING!!
I'ts not the cleaner's street, it's the doctor's street. Its the doctor's loss. What you are suggesting is slavery.
Money is the solution to bartering. Yes, paper is worthless. Money isnt. Go up to the department store and ask to buy shoes intending to pay with your coat. You will be laughed at. Now go up and offer money. They will accept. The reason money is center is because it is versitile.
And gold is valuable because people will buy it. Its that simple.
"Disease, suffering, hardship...that is what war is all about."-Captain Kirk, from "A Taste of Armageddon"
DIRESTRAITS wrote:People get paid what the market values them at. If you have a problem with an actor's salary, don't watch movies
Oh man- that guy just pretended to be Henry the Eighth! Give him more money this year than I will get working for my entire life!
Market values are ridiculous. They exist, but that doesn't make them right.
The people, aka the market, should control wages, not the government. Also, as for the street cleaner v. doctor debate, it comes down to this: Would you rather have your street cleaned or your liver cleaned?
