Nordic Countries [Quenched]

[DiM]

since the discussion moved i'm also posting here:

seeing how so very few people play the map

Are you kidding me? This is the most popular map I've made.

not kidding at all. the map simply isn't played by a lot of people.
it has just 5379 games in 450 days. that's less than what classic gets in a week.

Besides, better graphics could get more people to play it.

i'm 99% sure it won't. at least not in the long run. all revamps so far have caused a temporary spike in the games created immediately after the revamp is done. but soon enough everybody realises it's just the same old map with prettier graphics and the number of games returns to normal.
basically if a map has great gameplay it will be played regardless of graphics. your map has a simple classic gameplay that doesn't make it stand out in a crowd. it's not big to fit long 8 player games, it's not small like doodle for people to play russian roullette on it. it's of average size and any normal gameplay map of average size competes with classic. and obviously loses... badly.

so i'd rather see you work on something new, something better, something different than a revamp.

[natty dread]

Comparing maps to classic? Come on. There's no map on this site that comes even close to getting the play Classic gets. So what, should we just stop making maps alltogether?

Besides, if you compare Nordic Countries with Op. Drug war - if you look at Coleman's sample of games played, Nordic was getting 3 times as many games created as Drug war, yet you had no problem with Drug war's revamp.

Anyway, I don't get why you're so against this. Weren't you the one who was complaining of low quality of CC maps? I'm improving a map that quite frankly has terrible graphics. It will raise the overall quality of CC maps, even if only very slightly. What is wrong with that?

[DiM]

Comparing maps to classic? Come on. There's no map on this site that comes even close to getting the play Classic gets. So what, should we just stop making maps alltogether?

i always try to compare to the best. it's the only way to improve.

Besides, if you compare Nordic Countries with Op. Drug war - if you look at Coleman's sample of games played, Nordic was getting 3 times as many games created as Drug war, yet you had no problem with Drug war's revamp.

"i'd rather see you use your talent to make a brand new map." these are the exact words i said to telvannia when he said he wants to do the revamp. and this is pretty similar to what i told you.

Anyway, I don't get why you're so against this.

i'm not against this revamp in particular but against all revamps. if a map doesn't have huge visibility issues that impair gameplay or absolutely horrible graphics then it should not be revamped. i consider it to be a waste of time. no map is going to suddenly come to life and become a blockbuster after a revamp. look at all the revamps done so far if you don't believe me.

Weren't you the one who was complaining of low quality of CC maps? I'm improving a map that quite frankly has terrible graphics. It will raise the overall quality of CC maps, even if only very slightly. What is wrong with that?

i wasn't complaining just about the quality of graphics but also about gameplay. the most played maps are still those made 3-4 years ago and it's not just the graphics that makes them the most played. it's also the gameplay. in fact i'm sure most of the map makers with appearances in the top 10 have improved their skills in the last few years and judging by their new standards the old maps look rather bad. and yet their maps are as successful now as they were 3-4 years ago. if a map has good gameplay then the graphics can be simply decent to make that map a hit. of course stunning gfx wouldn't hurt. but even with stunning graphics a map with poor gameplay will still be a poor performer.
basically in the last 2 years maps have not only become uglier but they have also started to have less appealing gameplay.
this map in particular falls into a very difficult category of classic gameplay average sized maps. not only this category has a lot of maps but it is also the category of classic. it would take something absolutely brilliant for a map to become the best in this category and defeat classic. i'm not even sure it can be done, but i've learned never to say never.
so instead of wasting time with this map try something different, create a map that brings something new to this site. the key to success is innovation.

[AndyDufresne]

basically in the last 2 years maps have not only become uglier but they have also started to have less appealing gameplay.
this map in particular falls into a very difficult category of classic gameplay average sized maps. not only this category has a lot of maps but it is also the category of classic. it would take something absolutely brilliant for a map to become the best in this category and defeat classic. i'm not even sure it can be done, but i've learned never to say never.
so instead of wasting time with this map try something different, create a map that brings something new to this site. the key to success is innovation.

I think you are missing a lot of good maps, and are speaking a little naively.

[spoiler=Maps since January 2010]Chicago (Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:11 am)
Fractured America (Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:33 pm)
Atlantis (Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:41 pm)
Japan (Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:17 pm)
13 Colonies (Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:22 pm)
Monsters! (Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:50 am)
Dawn of Ages (Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 pm)
Nordic Countries (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:52 am)
War of Unification: Germany (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:56 am)
War of Unification: Italy (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:57 am)
Flanders 1302 (Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:49 pm)
Central America (Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:59 pm)
Good Morning Woodboro (Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:06 am)
South Africa 2010 World Cup - Limited Edition (Fri Jun 11, 2010 00:00 am)
WWII Stalingrad (Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:20 am)
Macedonia (Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:24 am)
Napoleonic Europe (Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:15 pm)
Thyseneal (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:02 pm)
Cricket: Silly Mid On (Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:47 pm)
Lunar War (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:17 pm)
Orient Express 1883 (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:18 pm)
Cyprus (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:19 pm)
México (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:43 pm)
First Nations of South America (Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:24 pm)
Celtic Nations (Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:13 am)
The King's Court (Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:55 pm)
The Balkan Peninsula (Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:32 pm)
Christmas Map - Limited Edition (Tue Dec 21, 2010 00:00 am)
Clandemonium (Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:36 pm)
Middle Ages (Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:02 am)
South Africa 1885 (Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:40 am)
Transsiberian Rail 1914 (Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:58 pm)
First Nations of the Americas (Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:58 pm)
Thailand (Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:05 am)
BETA Baseball: King of Diamonds (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:17 pm)
BETA Antarctica (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:25 pm)
Northwest Passage (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:34 pm)
Easter Egg hunt - Limited Edition (Sun Apr 24, 2011 08:00 am)
2011 Womens World Cup - Limited Edition (Sun Jun 26th, 2011 00:00 am)
BETA Austro-Hungarian Empire (Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:16 pm)
BETA Golfe Du St. Laurent (Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:24 pm)
BETA Three Kingdoms of Korea (Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:01 am)[/spoiler]

There are a fair number of popular maps in that list.


--Andy

[Coleman]

Ahem.

While there may be truth to what DiM is saying it's a bit more harsh than I am willing to be.

That said, clearly you own your own time and have quite a few maps already in the process. Any map maker can revamp their own map anytime they want to. It really irks me that lack can profit by selling a map I made on a shirt without my seeing any of it but honestly I doubt anyone is buying those shirts anyway so I haven't attempted to formally protest it. Anyway, for the most part, I believe if a map maker wanted their map removed from the site they could make it happen.

More on topic, if you didn't have any maps already undergoing development and wanted to spend all your time on this I might completely share DiM's objections but I'm not going to flat out say you shouldn't be doing it. I just don't believe that.

With all that out of the way I'm going to be soul crushing in a different way and say I don't see how this is any improvement over the original map, but you should take that with a grain of salt as I have no skill or knowledge of art to back that up.

[DiM]

I think you are missing a lot of good maps, and are speaking a little naively.

[spoiler=Maps since January 2010]Chicago (Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:11 am)
Fractured America (Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:33 pm)
Atlantis (Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:41 pm)
Japan (Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:17 pm)
13 Colonies (Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:22 pm)
Monsters! (Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:50 am)
Dawn of Ages (Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:49 pm)
Nordic Countries (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:52 am)
War of Unification: Germany (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:56 am)
War of Unification: Italy (Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:57 am)
Flanders 1302 (Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:49 pm)
Central America (Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:59 pm)
Good Morning Woodboro (Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:06 am)
South Africa 2010 World Cup - Limited Edition (Fri Jun 11, 2010 00:00 am)
WWII Stalingrad (Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:20 am)
Macedonia (Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:24 am)
Napoleonic Europe (Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:15 pm)
Thyseneal (Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:02 pm)
Cricket: Silly Mid On (Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:47 pm)
Lunar War (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:17 pm)
Orient Express 1883 (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:18 pm)
Cyprus (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:19 pm)
México (Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:43 pm)
First Nations of South America (Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:24 pm)
Celtic Nations (Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:13 am)
The King's Court (Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:55 pm)
The Balkan Peninsula (Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:32 pm)
Christmas Map - Limited Edition (Tue Dec 21, 2010 00:00 am)
Clandemonium (Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:36 pm)
Middle Ages (Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:02 am)
South Africa 1885 (Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:40 am)
Transsiberian Rail 1914 (Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:58 pm)
First Nations of the Americas (Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:58 pm)
Thailand (Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:05 am)
BETA Baseball: King of Diamonds (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:17 pm)
BETA Antarctica (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:25 pm)
Northwest Passage (Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:34 pm)
Easter Egg hunt - Limited Edition (Sun Apr 24, 2011 08:00 am)
2011 Womens World Cup - Limited Edition (Sun Jun 26th, 2011 00:00 am)
BETA Austro-Hungarian Empire (Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:16 pm)
BETA Golfe Du St. Laurent (Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:24 pm)
BETA Three Kingdoms of Korea (Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:01 am)[/spoiler]

There are a fair number of popular maps in that list.


--Andy

yeah there are a few good maps there. but how many are great? how many are poor?
i didn't say that all maps made in 2010 and 2011 are crap. i just said they're less appealing than the maps made before that date. which is true. the greatest maps have been made before 2010.
excluding beta and limited edition maps and judging by average games per day we have no maps from 2010 and 2011 in top 20 and just 6 maps in top 50. so no great maps done in this period of time, but we have 6 good maps out of 34 made. we have 11 more decent maps placed from 51 to 100. the rest are in the bottom half.
that's really not such a great performance.

[natty dread]

Ok Dim, Andy & rest, please take the discussion about 2010 maps to another thread, this is a map thread after all.

About this revamp: Dim, I get what you're saying, but honestly, this revamp is something I want to do. Nordic Countries, the map, means a lot to me, firstly because I happen to live there and secondly because it's my first map. It's a map that in my mind deserves better treatment than what I gave it when I was still a foundry noob and made graphics with paint.

Also, I enjoy doing graphics. It's something I do because I like it. When I start a new project, I don't think if it's a waste of time or if I could spend my efforts on something better - or to put it in other words, even if this revamp does nothing to the popularity of NC, even if it doesn't benefit anything, it doesn't matter to me, because I enjoy the graphics work. It's what I do.

Now, here's an update, still some things missing (texts on the minimap, mostly, and impassables) but almost everything is there:

[bigimg]http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2875/nordic02.jpg[/bigimg]

Now, would anyone care to give opinion about the graphics?

[natty dread]

Ok all stuff done, comments plox.

[bigimg]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5264/nordic04.jpg[/bigimg]

[RjBeals]

the ocean looks nice, but that texture pattern over land looks bad

[natty dread]

If someone doesn't think this looks better than the currently playable map... then I don't know what to say, they should get new eyes I guess...

[natty dread]

the ocean looks nice, but that texture pattern over land looks bad

Please take a look at the newer version in the drafting room...

[koontz1973]

natty, I am not going to say it looks better or worse, just new and maybe improved but I will wait till you are nearer the finish to say that. A few small points though for now.

The mountains do look better, the trees (green things) worse. Why, because the mountains look like mountains and the green blobs look like blobs. I would think that a forest would have a more uniform colour all over and not a dark edge with a light middle.
The bridge is a cross over from Yugoslavia map, am I correct and if so, how about something new.
In the old map, the shields carried army numbers, I take it this would be the same and if so, certain numbers and colours may not show to well + you have drawn these great shields which will have army numbers on them.
Lastly, the texture looks bloody awful (that is not a professional opinion but a personal one), but it is your map and if you want it then fine with me.

Good luck with the revamp.

[natty dread]

The bridges are new.

Textures... I kinda like the texture, myself. But I'm not opposed to trying other alternatives.

Forests... Idk. I'll tweak them somewhat.

Can we move this on to main foundry?

[Gillipig]

Nordic was my first map, and looking back now, I wish I had worked on it longer. I was a new mapmaker then... By today's standards, the map looks ugly, and I want to give my #1 map the makeover it deserves.

Here's what I have so far:

[bigimg]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5264/nordic04.jpg[/bigimg]

Olds...
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2875/nordic02.jpg
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5842/nordic01.jpg

I don't think it's ugly but it's not as visually stunning as this update! Beautiful colors and a varm outlook! Except for Norrland and the Glacier which stings in the eyes a bit! Love what you've done with the capitals !!!

[natty dread]

Ok, I'm trying a different texture

[bigimg]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8652/nordic05.jpg[/bigimg]

[Minister X]

If someone doesn't think this looks better than the currently playable map... then I don't know what to say, they should get new eyes I guess...

Better? Yes (except for the forests), but not very different. It looks like it was made by someone with more refined graphics and mapping skills, which I suppose is entirely the point. So... good on you.

However, I'd call this a spruce-up instead of a re-vamp. Other than the loss of the many circles, the changes are subtle. I've never played this map; my first impression of it was something like, "That looks playable but not inviting." If I were looking to make changes that might really affect rate of play I'd start by reconsidering the color scheme. When I think of Scandinavia I think of light colors and lots of white. To me, the most attractive little pieces of the maps are the little shields for the capitals. It strikes me that each country, rather than being filled with purple-green-white-blue, could be filled by a single representation of (a part of) the national flag. If everything were then also made light instead of dark, the map would, to me, look much more Nordic, pleasant and inviting. At the very least I'd change Finland from purple to white. That alone would make a huge difference. To my eyes purple and green are not very compatible colors and Finland-Sweden especially look bad next to each other. Here's another possibility: Iceland, Denmark and Finland all either ice blue, cold green or white, Norway and Sweden the unused two. I really think it would be more inviting.

[natty dread]

When I think of Scandinavia I think of light colors and lots of white.

And polar bears walking on the streets, right?

Btw, I am posting this without any pants on, due to the heat wave that's been boiling us alive here for the last few weeks... anyway.

That "flag colours for the countries" thing was suggested back when I first worked on the map. I tried it then, it didn't work then, I doubt it would work now.

The colour scheme is actually pretty well representative of the Nordics. All of the colours are cold colours, except for Denmark. Iceland is white, it has glaciers. Etc.

To my eyes purple and green are not very compatible colors

That's kind of odd, seeing as how purple and green are actually complement colours. Also, Sweden is cyan, not green.

Anyway, I don't really see a problem with the current colour scheme.

[natty dread]

Can I get this moved?

Where are the new foundry assistants, shouldn't they be earning their bread?

[Gillipig]

Can I get this moved?

Where are the new foundry assistants, shouldn't they be earning their bread?

I think a virtual pat on the back is the most they ever get for their efforts! And even that is rarely awarded !

[isaiah40]

Where are the new foundry assistants, shouldn't they be earning their bread?

They are in training, and need someone to hold there hands!

[natty dread]

Their

[sannemanrobinson]

It is a good thing to make connections more clear than on the old map. Now Aland is clearly connected to Stockholm and not to Uppland.

But Oslo seems to touch Oppland and Hedmark. Maybe move the borders a bit so that Oslo really sits inside Akershus?

Freshening up the graphics is welcome for me. Although some character is lost here. Maybe have a glimpse of northern light or the sun that never sets? Also the capital symbol in the legend could have a cross like all the flags have but without any colours.

[natty dread]

Done & done.

[bigimg]http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8652/nordic05.jpg[/bigimg]

Northern lights and non-setting suns... meh. I don't think I could do them so that they'd fit the style of the map. Also, I don't even know where I would cram them...

[tkr4lf]

I like this current texture much better than the first one you had. Overall, I would say that this does liven up the map a bit.

[natty dread]

Ok, while I'm waiting for the mods to get things moving, here are some mock-ups with army numbers.

Large version, 750x800
[bigimg]http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5200/nordic05n.jpg[/bigimg]

Scaled to 600x640
[bigimg]http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5260/nordic05s2.jpg[/bigimg]

Scaled to 563x600
[bigimg]http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1427/nordic05s1.jpg[/bigimg]

I'm hoping I can be allowed to make the small version 600x640, since it would be significantly clearer in the tight places. It would improve the clarity of the map.