SFR Yugoslavia [Quenched]

[Victor Sullivan]

Yeah, I also think I'll just use the previous slab. This one seems a bit odd... the idea seemed good "on paper" (by which I mean, in my head) so I wanted to try it but I guess it just doesn't work as well as I thought...

Yeah, I see what you mean...

-Sully

[natty dread]

On that note, here's the latest versions of both sizes

[bigimg]http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2576/yugo18.png[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5937/yugo18s.png[/bigimg]

[koontz1973]

Sue it has been asked before and you have given a reason for it, but are the Capital Stars in the south of the map and symbol key darker than in the north?
And thanks for not going with the funny shape.
Can Split Dalmatia attack directly Dubrovnik or does it have to go through Adriatic sea or Herzegovina. It looks like there is a gap between the two but with those three islands I just wanted to make sure.

[natty dread]

They do not connect, so they are not connected. There are no invisible attack routes on the map.

The lighting effects may make the stars look darker in the south.

[natty dread]

Anyone have any more input for this? Should I try to include Josip Tito on the map somehow?

[isaiah40]

Awaiting more comments/suggestions, if there are none in the next few days then I MIGHT give it the ole blue stamp!

[The Bison King]

I would like to see the paint of the sea disperse or gradient around the mini-map. As it is the weird elevated look isn't working for me. The shadow on the right makes it look like it's supposed to be elevated but it doesn't really make sense... I would get rid of that shadow and make it look like it is all on the same level. Then I would break up the paint around it so that it doesn't looks like there is a definitive line.

[natty dread]

I don't really see what you're going at. What doesn't make sense? It's a loose slab of concrete leaning against the wall, it can't be on the same level. No one else has had any problems getting it.

[The Bison King]

When is there just a lose slab of concrete leaning up against a wall? I could see if that was the outermost layer and everything else was chipped away, but the paint that represents the sea is underneath, thus implying that someone put a piece of concrete over the wall after the initial painting was finished (that's what doesn't make sense), and it just seems to magically float there. It just seems like a needless detail that confuses the perspective. I think it would be more cohesive if the legend was on the same layer of wall. If you don't want to do it that's fine, your call, but please don't imply me thick with a "no one else has a problem with it" defense. If I relented with this opinion then I would understand, but all I did was throw it out there 1 time for your consideration.

[koontz1973]

When is there just a lose slab of concrete leaning up against a wall? I could see if that was the outermost layer and everything else was chipped away, but the paint that represents the sea is underneath, thus implying that someone put a piece of concrete over the wall after the initial painting was finished (that's what doesn't make sense), and it just seems to magically float there. It just seems like a needless detail that confuses the perspective. I think it would be more cohesive if the legend was on the same layer of wall. If you don't want to do it that's fine, your call, but please don't imply me thick with a "no one else has a problem with it" defense. If I relented with this opinion then I would understand, but all I did was throw it out there 1 time for your consideration.

I sort of understand this Bison King. With the slab at the same angle as the wall it looks out of place. How about changing the perspective of the slab, would that help? The only way I can explain it and this is what I think Bison is getting at, place a paving slab against a wall upright and it falls over. You always place them at an angle leaning up against the wall.

[natty dread]

Well on the same note, it doesn't make "sense" either that someone would paint a muriel just to play a world-domination game... I mean, how do the game pieces stay on the wall?

Also, even if we forget that, it doesn't make "sense" that the painter would chisel perfectly hemispherical holes into each territory, or chisel the rivers into the wall, or the mountains being 3d-like...

None of those things make "sense", but I think I can simply evoke the Rule of Cool for these situations... which states:

The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

[The Bison King]

None of those things make "sense", but I think I can simply evoke the Rule of Cool for these situations... which states:

The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

yeah but there's nothing awesome about a concrete slab leaning against a wall...

[natty dread]

The only way I can explain it and this is what I think Bison is getting at, place a paving slab against a wall upright and it falls over.

It actually doesn't, if the base is wide enough.

But seriously. This is a map, meant for playing a world-domination game that uses dice for attacks - a concept that doesn't make much sense in the first place - and you guys are demanding 100% realism for the graphical elements?

I don't think that's really productive, is all. I speak from experience: I think now that I went too far with the "realism" idea on the Korea map, I was so caught up making the map look authentically old that clarity and overall graphical outlook were sort of neglected. I don't want the same to happen here...

[natty dread]

None of those things make "sense", but I think I can simply evoke the Rule of Cool for these situations... which states:

The limit of the willing suspension of disbelief for a given element is directly proportional to the element's awesomeness.

yeah but there's nothing awesome about a concrete slab leaning against a wall...

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[The Bison King]

Well I'm just being silly with the above comment but really I guess that does add up. Yeah it doesn't make sense that someone painted a game on concrete wall, but we accept it because conceptually it's a really cool idea. The concrete slab is just... an awkward concrete slab that just seems to be there. Personally I think that on a conceptual level the propaganda poster was by far the best idea for the legend/mini map. It's a shame that didn't work out. I wasn't around when you changed it, and that's my fault for being inattentive. Had I been aware what was happening at the time I would have urged you to try and stick with it. I'm sure you could have gotten it to look good.

So, you know how I feel but it's you map. Her life is in your hands dude.

[natty dread]

I'll respond more in detail when I get back, but I'll just say the poster didn't work out and I had to explore other options, so I came up with 2 options: a disembodied minimap that just sort of hung there (see v. 16) or this slab of concrete. Most seemed to like the slab, and I also felt it was more relevant to the theme, so I went with it.

[natty dread]

So to get back on this in more detail...

The poster was a good idea on paper (no pun intended) but I just couldn't get it to work with the rest of the map...

And you might think that I'm too lazy and that I should keep working on the poster to get it to work, that I'm taking the easy way out by discarding it... and maybe that's a valid point, but honestly, it's not the reason why I chose to go another way.

Firstly, the poster was in contrast with the style of the rest of the map - all the other elements have this concrete/stone feel, the whole map has a concrete texture that creates a consistent style. Adding a piece of paper in one corner seems to me to stand out too much - it seems like it doesn't belong, like it's just put there just for the sake of having it there, you know? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it too well...

Second, I just couldn't get the poster to fit the map in a smart way, everything I tried with it, just looked awkward and wouldn't fit in with the rest of the map... I wanted to make it look like an actual poster, but it just looked like a piece of paper that's just floating over the map. The dissonance between the paper and the texture of the rest of the map was just too big. And having it look more worn and poster-like just made it look dirty, it made the paper look like random garbage on the wall, and I wasn't satisfied with it.

If this concrete slab solution was totally unpopular and no one liked it, I would gladly look for other solutions, but currently it seems to me that most people are ok with it, if not in love with it, and only 2 or 3 people are wanting to get rid of it... so I think I'm allowed to use my own judgement here... unless someone can offer me an idea or solution that would work better than the current one.

[The Bison King]

All valid points above, about the poster.

unless someone can offer me an idea or solution that would work better than the current one.

I can:


Simply lose the slab. Just have it painted on the same surface. It's like 99% the same except now it's not like I'm in some weird 3d movie where everything's trying to prove how real it is by jumping into the foreground.


...and with that I SWEAR I'll get of your back about this.

[natty dread]

viewtopic.php?f=241&t=147163&start=255#p3274061

...that is to say, I already had a version like what you suggest... people weren't satisfied with it, I made the slab as an alternative, afterwards, most seemed to prefer the slab...

[natty dread]

ALSO...

except now it's not like I'm in some weird 3d movie where everything's trying to prove how real it is by jumping into the foreground.

...weren't you the one who was applauding the map for not being flat and having a textured 3d feel? Who was fighting against all removal of 3d elements from the map?

[Nola_Lifer]

I don't see anything wrong with this map. I like the 3d feel. Makes me feel like I ummmm....well nevermind.

[natty dread]

So, how about that Tito?

[bigimg]http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7149/yugo18t.png[/bigimg]

[The Bison King]

ALSO...

except now it's not like I'm in some weird 3d movie where everything's trying to prove how real it is by jumping into the foreground.

...weren't you the one who was applauding the map for not being flat and having a textured 3d feel? Who was fighting against all removal of 3d elements from the map?

Yeah, yeah, I know, that was me, but then you did remove those elements and I adapted my view point. So sue me.

Tito looks ok, but a little bit needless. Since you are inclined to keep the slab I'd say this is good enough as is to move on. Tito or no.

[natty dread]

Yeah, yeah, I know, that was me, but then you did remove those elements

What? No I didn't. The army circles are still there, the river is still set in, the mountains are still somewhat 3d... what have I removed?

[koontz1973]

Is Tito staying? As Bison said, a little needless and it is distracting. Glad to see you are keeping the slab though.