Japan's Disaster and Morals

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BigBallinStalin
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

got tonkaed wrote:The justification is weak because it does not stand up to even the remotest of criticism. I am not saying that "blaming the victim" is an universally weak justification, there are some situations in which it works quite well. However, the majority of these situations require that an individual is rather aware of all or a majority of the factors at work.

In short, this situation is not one of those situations. As has already been stated, and you have yet to disagree with (so I am assuming we can hold it as true in context), people in Japan who suffered as a result of the tsunami did so, in your estimation, with enough relevant information that they should have been able to make decisions which would have allowed them to avoid their fate. Given that they did not do so, you do not find yourself compelled to feel an inordinate amount of emotions or take extraordinary action on their behalf.

The immediate and fair question that was asked was "why was it their fault that they lived in Japan, an area which is prone to earthquakes and also possibly prone to damage from Tsunami's?"

You argued that they had enough information to then move and not moving was a choice and so on ergo....

There is the immediate difficulty when evaluating this line of reasoning in that I am inevitably going to have to reduce it down to individuals. In some ways there is a disconnect between your line of thinking in this area. Your justification is inevitably personal, while the moral outpouring which you are against is primarily social (which is another reason against your line of thinking, you are essentially comparing apples on a very large scale to oranges).

Would you have felt sorry for one individual who in a hypothetical situation, had decided to move away from Japan that day or in any relevantly short time frame, but perished in the act of moving? To what practical limit can individual responsibility maintain dominance over natural circumstances?

But for the sake of brevity (lol) lets go back to why your argument of choice and responsibility is weak. You essentially from what I have read so far, place an elevated importance on a decision that would ultimately not come from one specific choice and quite possibly from a choice that has never really been considered. Most major decisions in life (insert your preferred major decision here) come from a long series of choices and circumstances that are incredibly difficult to trace. My own decision to move to Korea for employment was certainly not a singular decision (stupid anecdotal evidence) and not a decision taken with perfect information. When making these decisions, there is a huge list of things which must be prioritized and I would be willing to bet most people do not prioritize natural disasters very high on that list of decision making. If they do, they are probably the type of person who fears flying because there is a chance that the "plane might crash" or they play the lotto because there is a chance "they might win". Either way, its not exactly a very logical or soundly reasoned hierarchical preference.

This is much of the problem with your argument. You seem to be arguing that every person who gets in a plane crash shouldn't really be worthy of much thought or action, because there was a chance they would get into a plane crash. Everyone knows plane crashes happen and everyone knows tsunamis can happen as well. That doesn't seem to stop people from flying nor does it stop people from appropriately reaching out when bad things do happen, because we realize they are bad.

To the second rather strange claim you are making, the idea of arbitrariness in moral outreach. We have both already stated that this is happening. However, I find the fact that this bothers you to be a bit strange to say the least.

We have a limited capacity to interpret and comprehend the world around us. Space matters in a large extent for who and what we care about. In the past that was because people had less opportunity to really get informed about these issues. Today it is more due to the abundance of information that people do not have time to process it all.

There are people out there who do actually care quite a bit about all of those things that you mentioned as worse than the situation in Japan. And not very surprisingly, they tend to know quite a bit more about those things than the average person off the street would. If you doubt this, by all means prepare a 5 question pop quiz about any of the issues and do a "jaywalking" segment. Presuming you get off campus far enough for it to matter, you could spin yourself into a nice little youtube side job educating the world about how much life on earth can suck at times. And you'd be molding minds, which is nice in terms of intrinsic benefits.

It is fine to say it should be different, but would you really blame the person who didn't know about all of those issues for feeling grief and wanting to donate to the people in Japan. Of course you would not, that person is reacting to a situation which is fresh in their memory and appeals to their sense of morality.

If in your position you find that there are far more compelling things in this world to attract your time and energy and you do not wish to spend your efforts lamenting for the people of Japan that is fine. It may be quite possible to argue that this is so. But to essentially criticize people for reacting to something that is put in front of them to react to, and people choose to react in a manner that is appropriate given the situation, is again suspect.


Thanks for your post.

It poses some pretty good points, and I could nitpick and say that I'm mostly talking about the tsunami, but yeah, overall it's not a good argument on my part.


Anyway, I'd like to ask everyone a question:

Why should I feel sympathy for them?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Baron Von PWN »

BigBallinStalin wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?



presumably you are not a coal fired automaton.

They are in an incredibly awe-full situation whole cities have been wiped out, tens of thousands dead. Families wiped out. If you are incapable of feeling sympathy for their plight, I seriously wonder if you are a psychopath. imagine yourself in their shoes. Never mind that they made "choices" you wouldn't take , just imagine, Your home, your city, possibly your family all gone in less than a half hour. How you could not feel sympathy for someone in that situation is baffling to me.
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Aradhus
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Aradhus »

I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Baron Von PWN »

Aradhus wrote:I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.


Fellow humans suffering isin't enough?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by natty dread »

Aradhus wrote:I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.


Look at me, I'm Aradhus. I'm too cool to feel sympathy!
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by JPcelticfc »

Aradhus wrote:I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.


God there are some cold emotionless people in the world!!!
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by pimpdave »

natty_dread wrote:
Aradhus wrote:I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.


Look at me, I'm Aradhus. I'm too cool to feel sympathy!


Or too psychopathic. Whichever, really.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by GTE »

BigBallinStalin wrote:I don't really sympathize with this whole situation.

I flip on the news and from word of mouth, people indirectly tell me to feel bad about it. But I won't. I can empathize with them (of course, my emotional understanding is limited. I mean, the worst I felt was from Hurricane Katrina which killed a few acquaintances, financially ruined the lives of a couple good friends, and damage my family's house which was fully covered by the insurance).

But really, if one chooses to live near an earthquake and tsunami prone area, then they should be expected to deal with the potential consequences of their own decisions. Sure, there's the "limitations" of choice, but really it's what people value. Obviously, those who continue to live in areas that are prone to natural disasters (like New Orleans) do so because they value living in such an environment more so than living somewhere else. So, it's still their choice to live there.



Maybe you should point out a spot on the planet that is not prone to natural disasters!

I'm guessing you don't sympathize with this because you have burned out all neurons associated with kindness and compassion or are simply too dumb to comprehend the situation.

Those poor people, why did they CHOOSE to live on this planet!
Grow a soul. freak!
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natty dread
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by natty dread »

GTE wrote:Grow a soul.


Do they grow from seeds? Can you buy the seeds from wall mart?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by MeDeFe »

Aradhus wrote:I don't feel sympathy for them. I don't really understand why I'm supposed to.

Somebody explain it to me.

You're really only "supposed to" because that's what the majority of humans does.

You're not expected to wallow in misery and cry your cold, black, empty heart out while lamenting every single person who's dead or missing individually by name. "Damn, that must suck" is an entirely satisfactory response to news like this.

Morally speaking it would even be better if you were emotionally completely unaffected by it but involved yourself in activities to alleviate the suffering of those who were caught in the middle of things, or activities to make sure future earthquakes cause less damage, be it by stricter rules for buildings or whatever.
"What do I care?" combined with a complete lack of action due to apathy, however, can get you labeled as a psychopath (though "sociopath" would be the more correct term).
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GTE
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by GTE »

natty_dread wrote:
GTE wrote:Grow a soul.


Do they grow from seeds? Can you buy the seeds from wall mart?


What the F is "wall mart"?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by natty dread »

GTE wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
GTE wrote:Grow a soul.


Do they grow from seeds? Can you buy the seeds from wall mart?


What the F is "wall mart"?


It's the place that sells soul seeds. They're on aisle 6 between rakes and corncob holders.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by pimpdave »

Sociopaths talk about what psychopaths do. So fine, I guess sociopath is more appropriate.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by AAFitz »

BBS wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?


Because that's what makes us human mostly.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by pimpdave »

AAFitz wrote:
BBS wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?


Because that's what makes us human mostly.


Yeah, but Fitz, it's their fault for living there.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by AAFitz »

pimpdave wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
BBS wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?


Because that's what makes us human mostly.


Yeah, but Fitz, it's their fault for living there.


Or seemingly, being born at all, from his point of view.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Metsfanmax »

AAFitz wrote:
BBS wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?


Because that's what makes us human mostly.


So if he doesn't feel sympathy, he's not human?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Nola_Lifer »

Four Noble Truths
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Eight Fold Path
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Compassion - : sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it : is a virtue —one in which the emotional capacities of empathy and sympathy (for the suffering of others) are regarded as a part of love itself, and a cornerstone of greater social interconnectedness and humanism —foundational to the highest principles in philosophy, society, and personhood.

Compassion is that which makes the heart of the good move at the pain of others. It crushes and destroys the pain of others; thus, it is called compassion. It is called compassion because it shelters and embraces the distressed. - The Buddha

"A bodhisattva is someone who has compassion within himself or herself and who is able to make another person smile or help someone suffer less. Every one of us is capable of this.” Thich Nhat Hanh
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by karelpietertje »

natty_dread wrote:
GTE wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
GTE wrote:Grow a soul.


Do they grow from seeds? Can you buy the seeds from wall mart?


What the F is "wall mart"?


It's the place that sells soul seeds. [..]

You forget to mention that they first have to take a lot of souls from employees and customers to be able to produce those seeds.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by The Bison King »

Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?


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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by The Bison King »

Also I know I'm a fail cause I just saw this thread and only read the first page, but a quick question to BBS, where do you live?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by PLAYER57832 »

The Bison King wrote:
Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?


Image

This picture is a good deal out of date. That said, the regions highlighted ARE among the most Tsunami-prone, so in that way it is valid,even if they are not now Japanese regions.
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Baron Von PWN »

PLAYER57832 wrote:
The Bison King wrote:
Or are you suggesting that the whole nation of Japan should find some other place to live in? What place would you suggest that could accommodate every living Japanese person?


Image

This picture is a good deal out of date. That said, the regions highlighted ARE among the most Tsunami-prone, so in that way it is valid,even if they are not now Japanese regions.



you know the red highlighted region is a picture of imperial japan in 1942 right?
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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by BigBallinStalin »

Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Why should I feel sympathy for them?



presumably you are not a coal fired automaton.

They are in an incredibly awe-full situation whole cities have been wiped out, tens of thousands dead. Families wiped out. If you are incapable of feeling sympathy for their plight, I seriously wonder if you are a psychopath. imagine yourself in their shoes. Never mind that they made "choices" you wouldn't take , just imagine, Your home, your city, possibly your family all gone in less than a half hour. How you could not feel sympathy for someone in that situation is baffling to me.



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Re: Japan's Disaster and Morals

Post by Maugena »

You should never be made to feel bad for someone else's problems, if the sympathy isn't there, then let it be so.
Regardless, it's not possible to be safe from natural disasters, no matter where you live. As long as you live on Earth, you will always be at risk.
And you can't be like, oh well, it's their own fault. What I take from that is the suggestion that the Japanese, as a people, should abandon Japan.
Where's the sense in that?
Sure, if you don't like the risks, you can attempt to move elsewhere.
Also, they've taken the geography of Japan very seriously. They had and have systems in place to minimize damage caused by earthquakes, monsoons, etc.
It really seems to me that the tsunami was the part that threw them for a loop. They were not prepared for that.
Honestly, I don't understand what point there was in you making this thread.
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