Baseball: King of Diamonds (v15 p.27)

[natty dread]

I guess... but is it ok for the home plate to touch the grass?

How about I nudge them down instead? So the plate wouldn't touch anything, that way it should be obvious that the territory is actually the sand circle.

[carlpgoodrich]

Home plate should not touch the grass. The only thing that's unclear (IMO) is the two lines of dirt from home plate to first and from third to home (right now they are not anything). I suggest making LD2 RD4 and CD1,2,3 extend to the foul line. In other words, the territories should end at the foul line, not the edge of the grass. I would think simply lightening the dark green line and extending the white circle and the other territory dividing line should do the trick.

[natty dread]

Does this address all problems?

[bigimg]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/773/baseball3.png[/bigimg]

[ghirrindin]

Does this address all problems?

No. Willie, Hank, Ozzie, and Jackie (if Jackie Robinson, not Jackie Hayes) were all African American players. Racial integration in professional sports was kind of a big deal...

[natty dread]

I'm not sure that these are meant to represent the actual players, I think they are just borrowing their first names for thematic effect?

That said, I have no problem with adding some racial diversity on the map.

[ghirrindin]

To be sure, the players do seem like cookie-cutter icons. But yes, I think, at least, acknowledging race and the struggle against oppression and for racial justice and equality seems necessary and appropriate given the sport's history. Also, I don't feel comfortable with Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays or others represented as white men. That's just wrong.

[carlpgoodrich]

I think you should either use the exact same icon for all the players or make a unique "cookie-cutter" icon for each (along the lines that were being discussed earlier: diving, running, etc.). I don't like the idea of using the same icons and just changing the color of a few... either the icons represent unique individuals or they are just generic baseball players whose names happen to coincide with actual players. To put it a different way, Jackie and Willie's names are being used in this map because of a lot more than just their race.

If you do make different icons for each player, consider making Ozzie's something like this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u294/jnadams06/ozzie-smith.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.myspace.com/jrod3bagger&usg=__SUOL3tcgUz048KkOawoiFWVQsy0=&h=467&w=599&sz=379&hl=en&start=43&sig2=nNPff6HVCoQiBrNh_cZrkw&zoom=1&tbnid=Ki1DyhYWNkxIvM:&tbnh=168&tbnw=221&ei=SCVITb2pNYOclgejuZCfBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dozzie%2Bsmith%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1279%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C969&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=388&vpy=282&dur=97&hovh=198&hovw=254&tx=124&ty=122&oei=NCVITa7yM4WdlgejgMGvBA&esq=3&page=3&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:43&biw=1279&bih=679

and Willie's like this:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2008/world_series/world_series_mays.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1852482_1852562_1852537,00.html&usg=__30f4nAZuxH-QKuralxRgaYoEg3o=&h=320&w=260&sz=43&hl=en&start=0&sig2=20fOEaZD9jnGpJOgzTt0lQ&zoom=1&tbnid=TTFftyBfDAc_3M:&tbnh=135&tbnw=102&ei=nClITeKNF8Kblge13tjBBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwillie%2Bmays%2Bcatch%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1279%26bih%3D679%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=639&vpy=50&dur=23&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=106&ty=139&oei=nClITeKNF8Kblge13tjBBA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=33&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0

These are iconic images that baseball fans will really appreciate.

[natty dread]

I would like to remind you all, that the players are not just visual candy, they need to function as territories, and will be partially obscured by army numbers.

So making them into different poses could be counterproductive for the clarity of the map. Having them mostly uniform is good for gameplay clarity, it groups them clearly into a group of territories with similar function. Particularly, I don't think making Ozzie throw backflips is a good idea - the images are static, so it would just look like he's huddling on the field in the fetal position...

That said, I will consult with Evil D in this matter, and will go with what he decides.

[Evil DIMwit]

To be sure, the players do seem like cookie-cutter icons. But yes, I think, at least, acknowledging race and the struggle against oppression and for racial justice and equality seems necessary and appropriate given the sport's history. Also, I don't feel comfortable with Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays or others represented as white men. That's just wrong.

Agreed on both counts. If we're going to be so particular as to make Babe left-handed we can certainly include other subtle details like Willie Mays' skin color.

I would like to remind you all, that the players are not just visual candy, they need to function as territories, and will be partially obscured by army numbers.

How do they look with army numbers right now? If it's awkward, we might want to find some way to put the army number a bit off to the side anyway and then you can make any pose you please.

Within reason, of course. They're playing a game, not posing for a picture.

[ghirrindin]

I think you should either use the exact same icon for all the players or make a unique "cookie-cutter" icon for each (along the lines that were being discussed earlier: diving, running, etc.). I don't like the idea of using the same icons and just changing the color of a few... either the icons represent unique individuals or they are just generic baseball players whose names happen to coincide with actual players. To put it a different way, Jackie and Willie's names are being used in this map because of a lot more than just their race.

Oh, please. I'm not asking for a radical change; for the most part the map's fine. However, there's no reason why the current icons can't tastefully acknowledge the fact that Ozzie, Jackie, Hank, and Willie were/are black men. The history of baseball (and US, arguably) is defined by race and race relations, and it is the duty of any map, which takes baseball as its subject and legitimizes itself with the names of great African American players, to not whitewash a history of racial struggles. With the names you got now, I'm trying to say that those icons aren't, in fact, "generic baseball players" with neutral histories that you can blissfully ignore.

Agreed on both counts. If we're going to be so particular as to make Babe left-handed we can certainly include other subtle details like Willie Mays' skin color.

Exactly. Thank you. I'm happy to see the mapmakers pliant on the matter.

[natty dread]

Ok, I changed the skin tone of the 4 players.

I added some test army numbers, in 4 different positions, to see if any of them works for the players. Personally I like the one where the number is in the glove, it's consistent with the batter that is sort of hitting the troop number.

[bigimg]http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1043/baseball4.png[/bigimg]

[carlpgoodrich]

I think you should either use the exact same icon for all the players or make a unique "cookie-cutter" icon for each (along the lines that were being discussed earlier: diving, running, etc.). I don't like the idea of using the same icons and just changing the color of a few... either the icons represent unique individuals or they are just generic baseball players whose names happen to coincide with actual players. To put it a different way, Jackie and Willie's names are being used in this map because of a lot more than just their race.

Oh, please. I'm not asking for a radical change; for the most part the map's fine. However, there's no reason why the current icons can't tastefully acknowledge the fact that Ozzie, Jackie, Hank, and Willie were/are black men. The history of baseball (and US, arguably) is defined by race and race relations, and it is the duty of any map, which takes baseball as its subject and legitimizes itself with the names of great African American players, to not whitewash a history of racial struggles. With the names you got now, I'm trying to say that those icons aren't, in fact, "generic baseball players" with neutral histories that you can blissfully ignore.

Agreed on both counts. If we're going to be so particular as to make Babe left-handed we can certainly include other subtle details like Willie Mays' skin color.

Exactly. Thank you. I'm happy to see the mapmakers pliant on the matter.

You completely missed my point. I was saying that we were either making these generic baseball players (in which case they should all look the same, whether their skin tone is light, dark, or some funky bluish purplish I could care less) or we are trying to make them represent actual people (in which case there are a number of defining characteristics for each player and including more than just a binary representation of their skin color might be appropriate).

With all the discussion of these icons, why not just go back to the baseball cap? That will eliminate any confusion about connectivity and would be more in line with the pitchers, who are just gloves.

[natty dread]

I'm just looking at the map with my laptop monitor, and the sand area looks almost grey, while on my other computer, the one I made the map on, it looks much more vivid brown.

Which is right?

On another note, I think what we have now is better than just baseball caps on the field. We have the batter, it would look weird if he was the only baseball player on the map. Pitchers are better represented as gloves for the simple reason that the baseball game (AFAIK) does not have 8 pitchers.

About different poses for the fielders, that is possible but it will require some work. Drawing humans is not exactly the easiest thing, you know - getting the pose and measurements right is paramount... I'm not a master at drawing people, but I can manage. So anyway, I'm just saying it might take a small while to get them all done...

[ghirrindin]

I think you should either use the exact same icon for all the players or make a unique "cookie-cutter" icon for each (along the lines that were being discussed earlier: diving, running, etc.). I don't like the idea of using the same icons and just changing the color of a few... either the icons represent unique individuals or they are just generic baseball players whose names happen to coincide with actual players. To put it a different way, Jackie and Willie's names are being used in this map because of a lot more than just their race.

Oh, please. I'm not asking for a radical change; for the most part the map's fine. However, there's no reason why the current icons can't tastefully acknowledge the fact that Ozzie, Jackie, Hank, and Willie were/are black men. The history of baseball (and US, arguably) is defined by race and race relations, and it is the duty of any map, which takes baseball as its subject and legitimizes itself with the names of great African American players, to not whitewash a history of racial struggles. With the names you got now, I'm trying to say that those icons aren't, in fact, "generic baseball players" with neutral histories that you can blissfully ignore.

Agreed on both counts. If we're going to be so particular as to make Babe left-handed we can certainly include other subtle details like Willie Mays' skin color.

Exactly. Thank you. I'm happy to see the mapmakers pliant on the matter.

You completely missed my point. I was saying that we were either making these generic baseball players (in which case they should all look the same, whether their skin tone is light, dark, or some funky bluish purplish I could care less) or we are trying to make them represent actual people (in which case there are a number of defining characteristics for each player and including more than just a binary representation of their skin color might be appropriate).

With all the discussion of these icons, why not just go back to the baseball cap? That will eliminate any confusion about connectivity and would be more in line with the pitchers, who are just gloves.

Look, I'm not going to get into a genital waving competition with you, but suffice it to say, you've missed completely my point. My point is that you can't "generically" encode baseball players as white, when those players were in fact African American. To do so would to simultaneously erase and reiterate a painful history of racial exclusion in the United States, as well as Black Americans' fight against that racism. I don't think there's any question that the names are referring to African Americans - Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, and Ozzie Smith - and their race should be fully signified on the map. Furthermore, changing the skin tone on those icons was such an easy correction (many thanks, by the way) that I am actually very suspicious that you're so resistant to this change. This is not 1946. Racial integration in baseball happened.

I love the changes. I'm right. Enough.

EDIT: I would also like to add that I don't think it was Natty's intention to do any of things I mention above, especially considering his Finnish-ness.

[MarshalNey]

Ghirrindin, Carl, let's make that the last post on this topic, as the mapmaker has addressed the concern in question. Enough said, okay?

As for the poses, well natty I didn't mean to make your job harder, but I do think it might be a delightful touch. For Ozzie, the pose I was thinking would be one during a game, not the famous backflip that he'd do after the Cardinals won.

Again, though, if it's going to seem like drugery then feel free to just tell me (kindly) to stop posting about the stupid poses

I'll see what I can find for demo pics.

Marshal Ney

[natty dread]

No no, I don't mind doing the poses if everyone here wants to see them on the map. Just that it might take a while to get them all done. Since I'm not that great of an artist...

So, while I work on this, tell me which of my monitors is correct? Does the sand area seem too grey (unsaturated)?

[isaiah40]

The sand looks like sand to me. Also just a nit pick really, but shouldn't there be a 9th player on the field? Like maybe 2nd base?

[MarshalNey]

I wouldn't call the dirt a vivid brown, but it is brown, sort of a dismal brown though.

shouldn't there be a 9th player on the field? Like maybe 2nd base?

The 9th player is the pitcher, which is represented off of the map. In the field, the second baseman usually plays between 1st and 2nd- until the ball is in play or a runner gets on second base- which is right where the player is positioned on the map.

Marshal Ney

[Army of GOD]

I was gonna mention the sand. It looks more like gray clay to me (which, some fields do have gray clay, but brown sand is more professional).

[natty dread]

I was gonna mention the sand. It looks more like gray clay to me (which, some fields do have gray clay, but brown sand is more professional).

Are you using a laptop by any chance?

[isaiah40]

The 9th player is the pitcher, which is represented off of the map. In the field, the second baseman usually plays between 1st and 2nd- until the ball is in play or a runner gets on second base- which is right where the player is positioned on the map.

Marshal Ney

Well call me blond!

[Evil DIMwit]

The sand looks greyish-brown to me. Making it browner can't hurt.

[Army of GOD]

I was gonna mention the sand. It looks more like gray clay to me (which, some fields do have gray clay, but brown sand is more professional).

Are you using a laptop by any chance?

Yea, that's probably why

[natty dread]

Ok here's a version where I have changed Lou, Ozzie & Willie. Jackie Hank & Ted still need to be changed.

[bigimg]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4622/baseball5.png[/bigimg]

[Evil DIMwit]

You may have left the dirt in the minimap grey (or I may not be able to tell well in this light).

Also, Baseball geeks, is home plate allowed to be that shallow? It's usually a pointier pentagon:


Also I don't really like having the field just floating in space there. If you're not going to put in seats and posts and all that jazz, at least make some kind of outline around the field so it doesn't look so naked.