Sanctification

[Abishai]

Heard a great definition for sanctification the other day. Sanctification is the process of relying and being modivated less and less by the old adam and learning to rely and be motivated more and more by the new adam. It total goes with Paul's idea of putting of the old man, the sinner in us and putting on the new man Christ in us.

[hecter]

Great… a Jesus Freak.

[Abishai]

Love you too hector, oh btw did you just fart in my general direction?

[Spuzzell]

New Adam?

He's like, now available with no added sugar or something?

[hecter]

Love you too hector, oh btw did you just fart in my general direction?

Yes. Now go away or I shall mock you a second time!

[Abishai]

the term used by scripture to refer to the the new creation that a man becomes by faith. The idea of being a sinner and a saint at the same time.

[Abishai]

Ah Monte Python not near as lovely as Jesus Christ, but an entertaining movie none the less.

[heavycola]

"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?"
Jules Feiffer

[Abishai]

A man cannot help but sin. It is in his very nature, to be his own god, the master of his destiny. To watch out for himself and to chose his own path. A child does not need to be taught to steal, to lie to hit his siblings, it is natural. But foolish is the man who says that because Christ died to save us from our sins then we should sin. As Paul says "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" (Romans 6:1,2)
He was talking to those redeemed by the blood of Christ. I guess if you are not a Christian it is a different matter for scriptures say you are condemned for rejecting the one who died to free you from destruction which you reject. Like a father giving his son a wonderful gift for his birthday and the sonresponding by spitting in his face and throwing the gift at him.

[hecter]

O c'mon. Jesus gave up his weekend for our sins. He was back up on his feet after three days, then he went to heaven which you christians say is a wonderful place.

[Abishai]

Oh yeah no biggy, you know being beaten by a cat o' nine tails. (a leather whip with glass and bones and metal pieces woven into the ends so that it rips the flesh off your back when you are hit with it. bleeding all over the ground. Its just like a vacation really. I mean no big deal that the heaviiest punishment save death was 40 lashes minus one (39) since 40 lases often killed men. Then being forced to carry a cross that would be heavy even before someone was beaten half to death. No big deal. Hey we all do that every weekend right? Oh wait I forgot about having nails driven between the bones in your wrist and the bone fragments that archeologists have found that show that the nails actually rubbed away the bones in the wrists as the prisioners pulled them selves up to get air since they could not breathe. A slow sufficating death. with nails in the feet that made it hard to push up so most of the weight rested on the wrists. You know people taunting you and being naked on the cross for all to see you. No big deal especially when you are innocent and did nothing deserving death. I would be willing to bet this if you were God and it was your son, you would have killed them all. As would have I. Oh, but no biggy for Jesus it is cool I mean he did got to heaven right. Just another walk in the park. (As if death was a spring break or some vacation?)

[Stopper]

Well, whatever turns Him on. He presumably chose to go through all that, and hey, I'm not one to judge if He likes a bit of S&M.

[Abishai]

Not S&M. He chose to do it so that He would suffer the penalty that you should bear so that you could have a realationship with the Father and live with Him in heaven after death. He chose to do it because He loves you.

[s.xkitten]

"Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?"
Jules Feiffer

ahh...so thats where hecter got that...

[Cynthia]

New Adam?

He's like, now available with no added sugar or something?

[max is gr8]

Cynthia The New Adam Comes with a free wheelchair because I chopped his legs off for telling me about the 'perfext image of god'

[heavycola]

Oh yeah no biggy, you know being beaten by a cat o' nine tails. (a leather whip with glass and bones and metal pieces woven into the ends so that it rips the flesh off your back when you are hit with it. bleeding all over the ground. Its just like a vacation really. I mean no big deal that the heaviiest punishment save death was 40 lashes minus one (39) since 40 lases often killed men. Then being forced to carry a cross that would be heavy even before someone was beaten half to death. No big deal. Hey we all do that every weekend right? Oh wait I forgot about having nails driven between the bones in your wrist and the bone fragments that archeologists have found that show that the nails actually rubbed away the bones in the wrists as the prisioners pulled them selves up to get air since they could not breathe. A slow sufficating death. with nails in the feet that made it hard to push up so most of the weight rested on the wrists. You know people taunting you and being naked on the cross for all to see you. No big deal especially when you are innocent and did nothing deserving death. I would be willing to bet this if you were God and it was your son, you would have killed them all. As would have I. Oh, but no biggy for Jesus it is cool I mean he did got to heaven right. Just another walk in the park. (As if death was a spring break or some vacation?)

(here we go again :rubs hands:)

crucifixion is an agonisng death, no questions.

So what you are saying: God makes humans and he makes them fallible. But then, because they are not perfect in god's eyes - even though he knew they couldn't be - he has to have his son murdered in a particualrly brutal way, and then everything is all right again, even though humans are still as fallible as they always were.

It makes so much sense! Count me in!

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

Oh yeah no biggy, you know being beaten by a cat o' nine tails. (a leather whip with glass and bones and metal pieces woven into the ends so that it rips the flesh off your back when you are hit with it. bleeding all over the ground. Its just like a vacation really. I mean no big deal that the heaviiest punishment save death was 40 lashes minus one (39) since 40 lases often killed men. Then being forced to carry a cross that would be heavy even before someone was beaten half to death. No big deal. Hey we all do that every weekend right? Oh wait I forgot about having nails driven between the bones in your wrist and the bone fragments that archeologists have found that show that the nails actually rubbed away the bones in the wrists as the prisioners pulled them selves up to get air since they could not breathe. A slow sufficating death. with nails in the feet that made it hard to push up so most of the weight rested on the wrists. You know people taunting you and being naked on the cross for all to see you. No big deal especially when you are innocent and did nothing deserving death. I would be willing to bet this if you were God and it was your son, you would have killed them all. As would have I. Oh, but no biggy for Jesus it is cool I mean he did got to heaven right. Just another walk in the park. (As if death was a spring break or some vacation?)

First, I haven't heard of this archaeological discovery about the bone calcium and nails, and I am usually on top of this stuff (it's my field).

Second, from a biological standpoint, the "40 lashes kills a man" is pure lunacy. Different constitutions allow for different pain thresholds. Moreover, if he were nailed through the wrist (and to a lesser point, the feet), he would have severe hemorrhaging (which would probably kill him from a massive loss of blood. I mean, you add the crown of thorns, the lashings, and the hammering in the nails? That's too much blood to lose), and his wrists would most likely have fractured (leading his arms to dangle), or torn his arms from his sockets. Tests from the time period and area show that calcium deficiency was rampant, and only increases the likely-hood of his bones splitting.

[MeDeFe]

They were nailed through the arms (don't know exactly where), but I think that old saw about the hands not being able to support the weight with a nail driven though them is correct.


And as for "did nothing", disturbed the peace, incited resistance against the government, interrupted the tax-collection of the roman empire (money used, for example, for: improving street security, sanitation, building aqueducts, maintaining roads, irrigation, medicine, education, health, public baths and so on and so forth)

[qeee1]

This looks like a typical God exists/God doesn't exist debate (and Allah knows we've had enough of them) but to bring it back to the main topic of the thread...

Max Stirner has a good criticism of sanctification. Not sure if I'm exactly behind what he says, but it provides some interesting talking points.

His basic criticism of santification as of most things (such as political parties) is that it destroys the individual.

Essentially sanctification involves sacraficing yourself to some external ideal imposed upon you as being righteous. You become less you and a mere vessel of ideals. You become trapped by them, and cease to be an free individual.

I am owner of my might, and I am so when I know myself as unique. In the unique one the owner himself returns into his creative nothing, of which he is born. Every higher essence above me, be it God, be it man, weakens the feeling of my uniqueness, and pales only before the sun of this consciousness. If I concern myself for myself, the unique one, then my concern rests on its transitory, mortal creator, who consumes himself, and I may say:

All things are nothing to me.

[Blueoctober]

the wrost part about argueing that god exists is once you prove he does then you have lost you faith anf to a religous person thats everything.

and why cant every just live and let live. so what if they guy next door to you is a wiccan and the other is a bhuddist whats that got to do with you

[unriggable]

Jesus was an Arab. My comment is just as valid as yours, since neither of us have any way of disproving the other

[b.k. barunt]

Excellent point Qeee. Sanctification does take away the individual's identity, which is what the salvation of the soul (sanctification) is all about - giving up your own identity. "He who will save his identity will lose it, and he who will give up his identity for my sake will find it". I haven't been able to do it myself.

[luns101]

I get what you're talking about, Abishai. Remember, you're not going to convince that crowd. They reinforce their non-belief with sarcasm and condescension. When they hear others repeat it they feel as if they are right. Better to not "throw pearls before swine".

If you want to make headway with people, my suggestion is to play to the best of your ability, take your turns on time and never deadbeat. Build up a good reputation with people. When someone here is hurting, try to be there for them.

Terms like "sanctification" and "justification" are lost on them. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14

[unriggable]

I get what you're talking about, Abishai. Remember, you're not going to convince that crowd. They reinforce their non-belief with sarcasm and condescension. When they hear others repeat it they feel as if they are right. Better to not "throw pearls before swine".

If you want to make headway with people, my suggestion is to play to the best of your ability, take your turns on time and never deadbeat. Build up a good reputation with people. When someone here is hurting, try to be there for them.

Terms like "sanctification" and "justification" are lost on them. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." - I Corinthians 2:14

We don't accept things 'just like that'. Phrases from the bible are of no more value than those of the Textbook of Scientology. You need some basic proof, some evidence, that your religion is more valid than any other.