The Debt Ceiling: Slaves to Debt?

[Phatscotty]

This is new information to me.

Thanks for sharing everything so far. I've learned a good bit, and eventually may refute some parts but also put other bits to good use. Thanks for expanding my knowledge, and for providing something for me to challenge through my own education. I'll read your post in that forum as well.

No problem man, I encourage every person to look into how the central banks are running things. Almost every single country in the world has one and they all run the same way, using a debt based currency. When more understand how it all works then maybe we can finally have the will and knowledge to come up with a better system. They don't teach any of this in regular schooling, you have to actually seek this knowledge out or take specific courses on it. That is why so many don't understand how our system really works.

Remember, for a bank to even be allowed to practice fractional reserve lending, it must be backed by The Fed. A loan shark practices 100% reserve banking. That is, if he wants to loan you $100 he actually has to put at risk $100 of his actual money. He can't make it up out of thin air. I suppose that is why a loan shark will break your legs if you don't pay him back....

Today's banks only need to have 10% of actual money compared to the loans they make. For every dollar in deposits a bank has, it can loan out $10. And all that loaned money is just created out of thin air. It doesn't actually exist, they just credit someone's bank account. The banks would be screwed (or, maybe the depositors actually) if everyone came in and wanted to clean out their bank account. The bank would not have near enough money to pay everyone.

Fractional reserve banking has other problems. The only people who get the full value of that newly created money is the bank making the loan and the person they actually make the loan to. The Market bases prices on how much money is in circulation. Joe Bob goes down and gets a loan to buy concrete. The bank through fractional reserve lending creates 90% of the loan out of thin air and Joe Bob spends the money on concrete. For Joe Bob he gets a bag of concrete for $5 a bag. He spends all his newly loaned money and the Market notices all this new money coming into the system and adjusts prices accordingly. This means that the next guy, Billy May, who wants to by concrete, has to pay $6 a bag, because the Market sees there is more money chasing the same amount of goods, thus the price of the goods increases. Inflation is not rising prices but is increased money supply. Fractional reserve banking increases the money supply dramatically and quickly.

Yup, yup, double yup.

Note: I think it's down to 5%, and my initial thought was 2.5. I think it was changed in the "financial reform"

[radiojake]

It seems as if we have no choice but to raise the debt ceiling. I mean, if we don't raise it the world will collapse? WTF?

If we do not have a choice, then we are slaves to the debt.

Do you have a mortgage or credit card? Just curious

Nope, NOPE!

I carry 0 debt.

That is good - I also have none of the above mentioned things - We have something in common!

[john9blue]

What's with all the civilized debate and lack of heated argument in this thread??

Maybe someday I'll learn wtf you guys are talking about. I know next to nothing about the financial world.

[BigBallinStalin]

This is new information to me.

Thanks for sharing everything so far. I've learned a good bit, and eventually may refute some parts but also put other bits to good use. Thanks for expanding my knowledge, and for providing something for me to challenge through my own education. I'll read your post in that forum as well.

No problem man, I encourage every person to look into how the central banks are running things. Almost every single country in the world has one and they all run the same way, using a debt based currency. When more understand how it all works then maybe we can finally have the will and knowledge to come up with a better system. They don't teach any of this in regular schooling, you have to actually seek this knowledge out or take specific courses on it. That is why so many don't understand how our system really works.

How about taking the Fed's monopoly on monetary expansion away and leaving it to free market forces?

Case in point: Somalia's currency collapsed when the government fell, so multiple people got into the money-printing business. $1000 Somali dollars is the highest bill accepted by the public--anything higher and the people won't accept it. So, currently $1000 Somali dollars is more less equal to $0.03 to $0.04 USD. When the Somali dollar raises to 4 cents, the "counterfeiters" begin to produce since it's profitable to do so; however, they stop when the exchange to USD hits $0.03 due to increasing marginal costs.

Market equilibrium is reached and the money is stable without the need of a sole monopolist such as the Fed. Through spontaneous order (on the agreement of the highest bill acceptable), inflation such as seen with Zimbabwe can't occur. Granted, Euros and USD is used for more expensive purchases; however, the argument is still valid.

[BigBallinStalin]

What's with all the civilized debate and lack of heated argument in this thread??

Maybe someday I'll learn wtf you guys are talking about. I know next to nothing about the financial world.

I have some excellent and easy to read material for you, sir. However, I just recently lent out my book and can't remember the links to which it referred.

If there are still some copies lying around at the usual places, in about 5-6 hours from the time of this post I'll send you some great links for beginners on understanding money and how it works

[Phatscotty]

This is new information to me.

Thanks for sharing everything so far. I've learned a good bit, and eventually may refute some parts but also put other bits to good use. Thanks for expanding my knowledge, and for providing something for me to challenge through my own education. I'll read your post in that forum as well.

No problem man, I encourage every person to look into how the central banks are running things. Almost every single country in the world has one and they all run the same way, using a debt based currency. When more understand how it all works then maybe we can finally have the will and knowledge to come up with a better system. They don't teach any of this in regular schooling, you have to actually seek this knowledge out or take specific courses on it. That is why so many don't understand how our system really works.

How about taking the Fed's monopoly on monetary expansion away and leaving it to free market forces?

[Phatscotty]

What's with all the civilized debate and lack of heated argument in this thread??

Maybe someday I'll learn wtf you guys are talking about. I know next to nothing about the financial world.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 371055528#

[BigBallinStalin]

This is new information to me.

Thanks for sharing everything so far. I've learned a good bit, and eventually may refute some parts but also put other bits to good use. Thanks for expanding my knowledge, and for providing something for me to challenge through my own education. I'll read your post in that forum as well.

No problem man, I encourage every person to look into how the central banks are running things. Almost every single country in the world has one and they all run the same way, using a debt based currency. When more understand how it all works then maybe we can finally have the will and knowledge to come up with a better system. They don't teach any of this in regular schooling, you have to actually seek this knowledge out or take specific courses on it. That is why so many don't understand how our system really works.

How about taking the Fed's monopoly on monetary expansion away and leaving it to free market forces?

That would be a strong step in the right direction, sir.

[Phatscotty]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act 1913

FDR Ends Gold Standard in 1933

1944 Bretton Woods International Monetary Conference 1:35

Nixon Ends Bretton Woods International Monetary System 4:05

[patches70]

How about taking the Fed's monopoly on monetary expansion away and leaving it to free market forces?

Sure, that would be better than the deal we got going now.

Abraham Lincoln did something that really pissed of the bankers, he created the GreenBack. The Greenback was a debt free currency that was issued directly from the Treasury. It was a Treasury Note. The argument goes that if Congress has the authority to issue a $30 million dollar bond, then they also have the authority to issue $30 million in currency directly and not have to pay bankers any interest at all.

We could do that now. Stop printing Federal Reserve Notes and print Treasury Notes instead. The Treasury notes would look just like the Federal Reserve Note, spend the same, but not one penny of interest would need to be paid on it. Issue the Treasury Notes and use them to pay off our debt, buy back our bonds. As the Treasury notes are being used to pay off our debts the banks would then be forced to increase their reserves in proportion to the bonds being paid off. This keeps too many Treasury Notes from flooding the system and causing massive inflation.
Once our debts are paid off completely, with in a year or two at most, the banks would then be at 100% reserves and not allowed to practice fractional reserve banking. They would not be allowed to create money, as that power is the ultimate power and responsibility of a Government. We would print Treasury notes to keep in line with population. There would be a set target of per capita amount of Treasury notes in circulation. As the population increases, more Treasury notes are printed to keep it stable. Since the per capita amount of Treasury notes remains constant the Treasury Note could add a great amount of stability to the whole economic system.

The beauty of a debt free system is that the people who actually contribute, who actually produce things, who actually provide needed services, benefits most from it. In the debt based system, it is the usurer who benefits from the producers and productive citizens. We would have to start producing again, as a nation, if we used Treasury Notes.

One thing is for certain though, the current system can't last much longer. Even today economists are increasingly coming to the conclusion that the dollar is on it's last legs and in 10-20 years the dollar will no longer be the reserve currency. Our ability to be the only country to legally print dollars has benefited our consumer based economy for a long time now. Without that ability we would have to produce at least as much as we consume or our entire economy collapses. As it stands now, we don't have to produce anything, we just print up dollars to buy whatever we need. That is why so many jobs have shipped out.

The status as being the nation with the reserve currency has another problem as well. We have to run trade deficits. That is the paradox of having the reserve currency. Any nation that hold the power over the world's reserve currency must run a trade deficit. After all, if people around the world want to buy stuff they will need dollars to do it. That means, a constant flow of dollars must flow out of the US to supply the world with the dollars they need as the reserve currency.

I have reason to believe that the process will happen much quicker than people think, or seem to assume, as events with our economic policies begin to cascade into ever increasing crisis. The Fed only has a few weapons available to try and keep the whole thing stable and those weapons are becoming less and less effective. In other words, I think there is a much greater chance that in less than 10 years the dollar will collapse and no longer be the World reserve currency.

Time will tell.

[Ray Rider]

Wow! Thanks for all that info, Patches! You must be a teacher? I hope you stick around conquerclub for a long time to come

What's with all the civilized debate and lack of heated argument in this thread??

Maybe someday I'll learn wtf you guys are talking about. I know next to nothing about the financial world.

I have some excellent and easy to read material for you, sir. However, I just recently lent out my book and can't remember the links to which it referred.

If there are still some copies lying around at the usual places, in about 5-6 hours from the time of this post I'll send you some great links for beginners on understanding money and how it works

Hey, could you send them my way also?

[BigBallinStalin]

Wow! Thanks for all that info, Patches! You must be a teacher? I hope you stick around conquerclub for a long time to come

What's with all the civilized debate and lack of heated argument in this thread??

Maybe someday I'll learn wtf you guys are talking about. I know next to nothing about the financial world.

I have some excellent and easy to read material for you, sir. However, I just recently lent out my book and can't remember the links to which it referred.

If there are still some copies lying around at the usual places, in about 5-6 hours from the time of this post I'll send you some great links for beginners on understanding money and how it works

Hey, could you send them my way also?

Yeah, I will. I'll try again tomorrow morning.

[spurgistan]

Until the global bond market stops expressing a desire for dollars, or we start actually seeing inflation in the United States, it's hard for me to agree with that guy. Yeah, we're the biggest debtor in the world, on a net basis. But, you mighta realized, we also have a pretty big economy. Not that I don't agree that we need to really get after our patterns of consumption. It's just that there are more immediate problems. Like, you know, 10% unemployment. Cutting spending (which I assume you're after) is counterproductive to those ends. Silly Lafferist rhetoric aside (which is where Laffer belongs. Did you not notice that he's named Laffer, people?!)

Also, the US circa 2010 is different than the Weimar Republic circa 1932.

In relation to the OP, there are a lot of things we are dependent on. Breathing, for instance. Are we slaves to oxygen? Simply on a taming-the-rhetoric tangent.

Also, gottonkaed sighting?! I thought you'd gotten too cool for us!

Yeah, two interrobangs in one post. Sue me.

The market is considering and have taken steps towards using other currencies for international exchanges. Check out CHina and Russia's recent bilateral trade agreements for using yuan to rubles instead of one or the other relying on USD and the other converting with their currency's USD exchange rate. Also, with the devaluation of the USD, the incentives to continue using such a currency decrease, and it also increases the incentives for the other countries to devalue their currencies (as seen in Brazil as of most recently, and the Eurozone). There are good chances that countries will continue to engage in this economic "war."


We have seen inflation in the US for decades, it's just managed by the Fed, who tries to avoid deflation (which would actually be great for consumers). Our purchasing power over the past 100 years has decreased by 95%. The problem with nations in debt is that they have no surplus to pull funds from, so they simply print the money. This route inevitably leads to further and further inflation--which hits consumers the hardest, and cannot be indefinitely relied upon.


Here's something you're overlooking: Cutting government spending isn't counterproductive towards alleviating unemployment. Whenever the government puts something into economy, it must take something else from it. This is seen in the continued and recently massive devaluation of the USD to prop up failing businesses. Also, you're assuming that the government is better at providing jobs through spending your money compared to the market providing such jobs.

Not sure where you get a recent massive devaluation of the dollar to prop up failing industries. Again, right now the Fed isn't even hitting it's very low targeted inflation, right now we're swinging between 0-2% inflation, when the target is around 4% (I believe)

And I don't think that the Fed is necessarily better at providing jobs then private industry, no. I didn't say that. The issue is (STILL) that industry isn't offering jobs. Saying that the government shouldn't be offering jobs when nobody else is is making the perfect the enemy of the good.

[patches70]

A little graphic to help put the debt situation in perspective.

[BigBallinStalin]

Until the global bond market stops expressing a desire for dollars, or we start actually seeing inflation in the United States, it's hard for me to agree with that guy. Yeah, we're the biggest debtor in the world, on a net basis. But, you mighta realized, we also have a pretty big economy. Not that I don't agree that we need to really get after our patterns of consumption. It's just that there are more immediate problems. Like, you know, 10% unemployment. Cutting spending (which I assume you're after) is counterproductive to those ends. Silly Lafferist rhetoric aside (which is where Laffer belongs. Did you not notice that he's named Laffer, people?!)

Also, the US circa 2010 is different than the Weimar Republic circa 1932.

In relation to the OP, there are a lot of things we are dependent on. Breathing, for instance. Are we slaves to oxygen? Simply on a taming-the-rhetoric tangent.

Also, gottonkaed sighting?! I thought you'd gotten too cool for us!

Yeah, two interrobangs in one post. Sue me.

The market is considering and have taken steps towards using other currencies for international exchanges. Check out CHina and Russia's recent bilateral trade agreements for using yuan to rubles instead of one or the other relying on USD and the other converting with their currency's USD exchange rate. Also, with the devaluation of the USD, the incentives to continue using such a currency decrease, and it also increases the incentives for the other countries to devalue their currencies (as seen in Brazil as of most recently, and the Eurozone). There are good chances that countries will continue to engage in this economic "war."


We have seen inflation in the US for decades, it's just managed by the Fed, who tries to avoid deflation (which would actually be great for consumers). Our purchasing power over the past 100 years has decreased by 95%. The problem with nations in debt is that they have no surplus to pull funds from, so they simply print the money. This route inevitably leads to further and further inflation--which hits consumers the hardest, and cannot be indefinitely relied upon.


Here's something you're overlooking: Cutting government spending isn't counterproductive towards alleviating unemployment. Whenever the government puts something into economy, it must take something else from it. This is seen in the continued and recently massive devaluation of the USD to prop up failing businesses. Also, you're assuming that the government is better at providing jobs through spending your money compared to the market providing such jobs.

Not sure where you get a recent massive devaluation of the dollar to prop up failing industries. Again, right now the Fed isn't even hitting it's very low targeted inflation, right now we're swinging between 0-2% inflation, when the target is around 4% (I believe)

And I don't think that the Fed is necessarily better at providing jobs then private industry, no. I didn't say that. The issue is (STILL) that industry isn't offering jobs. Saying that the government shouldn't be offering jobs when nobody else is is making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Compare the USD's value to gold for the past ten years (or the past 40 for fun!), then you'll see the devaluation that I'm talking about. Also, the USD is being devalued relative to many other country's currencies, which is why other countries are engaging in this economic warfare (many are trying to drive down the values of their currencies relative to the USD--see Brazil and China). The US's own inflation rate isn't the sole determinant; it's also related to the supplying of more money.

The problem with the government providing jobs is that they take something from the economy in order to put something into. For example, your taxes pay for the inefficient provision and maintaining of jobs, whose projects sometimes aren't even necessary. If I take $10 from you, and give $10 to someone to clean my car, am I contributing to the overall growth of our economy?

[thegreekdog]

Let me throw another wrench out there. Here are the top 15 occupations in the United States in 2009:

Retail salespersons - 4,209,500
Cashiers - 3,439,380
Office clerks - 2,815,240
Food preparation and serving workers - 2,695,740
Registered nurses - 2,583,770
Waiters and waitresses - 2,302,070
Customer service representatives - 2,195,860
Labors and freight, stock, and material movers, hand - 2,135,790
Janitors and cleaners (except maids) - 2,090,400
Stock clerks and order fillers - 1,864,410
Secretaries (except legal, medical, and executive) - 1,797,670
Bookkeeping, accounting and auditing clerks - 1,757,870
General and operations managers - 1,689,680
Truck drivers, heavy and tractor-trailer - 1,550,930
Elementary school teachers (except special education) - 1,544,300

That is about 35 million jobs. What do they all have in common? They are all service jobs - none of these people are creating "tangible property." These are not manufacturing jobs. This kind of scares me. It means we're not producing anything.

[patches70]

Let me throw another wrench out there. Here are the top 15 occupations in the United States in 2009:

Retail salespersons - 4,209,500
Cashiers - 3,439,380
Office clerks - 2,815,240
Food preparation and serving workers - 2,695,740
Registered nurses - 2,583,770
Waiters and waitresses - 2,302,070
Customer service representatives - 2,195,860
Labors and freight, stock, and material movers, hand - 2,135,790
Janitors and cleaners (except maids) - 2,090,400
Stock clerks and order fillers - 1,864,410
Secretaries (except legal, medical, and executive) - 1,797,670
Bookkeeping, accounting and auditing clerks - 1,757,870
General and operations managers - 1,689,680
Truck drivers, heavy and tractor-trailer - 1,550,930
Elementary school teachers (except special education) - 1,544,300

That is about 35 million jobs. What do they all have in common? They are all service jobs - none of these people are creating "tangible property." These are not manufacturing jobs. This kind of scares me. It means we're not producing anything.

Yep, you know my posts in "what killed the great depression". I make the point that a nation needs to be producing tangible goods if it wants to have a thriving economy. Being the most productive nation is what got us out of the Great depression-not war-not government spending, but building, growing food, producing goods got us out of the deep hole we were in from the Depression and WWII.

[Phatscotty]

Let me throw another wrench out there. Here are the top 15 occupations in the United States in 2009:

Retail salespersons - 4,209,500
Cashiers - 3,439,380
Office clerks - 2,815,240
Food preparation and serving workers - 2,695,740
Registered nurses - 2,583,770
Waiters and waitresses - 2,302,070
Customer service representatives - 2,195,860
Labors and freight, stock, and material movers, hand - 2,135,790
Janitors and cleaners (except maids) - 2,090,400
Stock clerks and order fillers - 1,864,410
Secretaries (except legal, medical, and executive) - 1,797,670
Bookkeeping, accounting and auditing clerks - 1,757,870
General and operations managers - 1,689,680
Truck drivers, heavy and tractor-trailer - 1,550,930
Elementary school teachers (except special education) - 1,544,300

That is about 35 million jobs. What do they all have in common? They are all service jobs - none of these people are creating "tangible property." These are not manufacturing jobs. This kind of scares me. It means we're not producing anything.

Yep, you know my posts in "what killed the great depression". I make the point that a nation needs to be producing tangible goods if it wants to have a thriving economy. Being the most productive nation is what got us out of the Great depression-not war-not government spending, but building, growing food, producing goods got us out of the deep hole we were in from the Depression and WWII.

Right. interesting to note, I heard somehwhere, and I pretty much believe this to be true, but every world super power went from producer to consumer/service related, and then disappeared as the world power.

Just a question, if "the people" of America took it upon themselves to start producing again, would the gov't try to stop them?

[Aradhus]

Therer was a recent article in, I think it was the economist, where the concensus amongst the top economists in the world was basically America is fucked. They have too much debt, they're not producing anything. Its basically inevitable, and fast approaching.

[Phatscotty]

Therer was a recent article in, I think it was the economist, where the concensus amongst the top economists in the world was basically America is fucked. They have too much debt, they're not producing anything. Its basically inevitable, and fast approaching.

Can you believe, that up until now, and still to the un-educated, there were millions of Americans demanding more gov't programs, costing trillions more to the debt?

Fucking nutz huh?

[Aradhus]

Therer was a recent article in, I think it was the economist, where the concensus amongst the top economists in the world was basically America is fucked. They have too much debt, they're not producing anything. Its basically inevitable, and fast approaching.

Can you believe, that up until now, and still to the un-educated, there were millions of Americans demanding more gov't programs, costing trillions more to the debt?

Fucking nutz huh?

How about you take your rigth wing shades off, and stop only lookng at it from one side. I'm trying to meet you here at some position wheer we're both not entrenched blaming opposing parties or ideologies for everything that's gone wrong.

[patches70]

Right. interesting to note, I heard somehwhere, and I pretty much believe this to be true, but every world super power went from producer to consumer/service related, and then disappeared as the world power.

We went to a consumer based because of our status of holding the World's reserve currency. That in itself is enough to turn a nation from a primarily producer to a consumer.

I would note, that this is all we are when looked at by the financiers and corporations of the world, a "consumer". Not as an American, or even a human being, but merely a consumer. Everything is geared to try and make people desire things they don't really need and buy those things with money they don't have.

Those self same financiers are more than willing to just loan vast amounts of money to Government, and then loan money to pay back the original loans and so on. This makes it possible for politicians to go ahead and fund everything, every pet project, every entitlement under the sun and not have to worry about that politically destroying thing like raising taxes. Except that the down side is that there is only so much debt one can take before the creditors finally say- "Ok, time to pay up now. Oh, you ain't got the money? Hmmmm, well, you do have those federal lands, you have assets, like....all that gold up there at Fort Knox...."

You know, who really owns that gold in Fort Knox (if there even is any there at all)?

I will let you ponder on that for a while but as a hint, I will tell you who doesn't own it, the American people don't own it...

Just a question, if "the people" of America took it upon themselves to start producing again, would the gov't try to stop them?

It all depends on what one defines as "stop". If you think over regulating, forcing people to have licenses, high tax rates, Government nickel and dime people to death, then I would say that they already have stopped us. Most don't realize it, but when Japan lowers it's corporate tax rate later this year (as the new head honcho said he would), then that will make the United States the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Much of our policies have driven business out. And the only thing we every hear of late is that more regulation is the answer. There is a fine line and that line should not be determine by political rhetoric or emotional BS responses. I have ideas on the subject, but they would not be very popular to progressives. The secret is making the Government stand up for individual property rights and do a better job of that.

we're both not entrenched blaming opposing parties or ideologies for everything that's gone wrong.

Oh, I think there is no argument from anyone that there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides.

The past is done. No way to change that. What we have to start actually looking at is NOW and going forward. And we have to look at what we are doing based on cause and effect and looking plainly at the results. Doing things for what is described as should happen in a "perfect world" is a recipe for disaster.

Take for instance the massive health care bill. It will give 35 million people insurance who don't have insurance now. That is all fine and dandy, but insurance is NOT health care. What good is it to have insurance if we don't have enough doctors to treat all those insured people? The bill does practically nothing to fix that problem. Also it never addressed the worst causes of rising health care costs, which in the end will end up costing the Taxpayer vast amounts of money for care that does not exist in the first place.

It is a sham really. What we need to do is get our economic house in order. Period. Until that happens nothing else will ever fall into line. What are we going to cut? We can gut the military all we want but that is just a drop in the bucket to all the real fiscal problems we have. Gutting the military leads to problems down the line as well that many don't ever consider, since there are certainly people out there in the World that want to kill Americans simple because they are American.

And it all stems from when Central Government starts mucking around into things they were never given express authority in the Constitution to be mucking around with. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure. And the economists are finally beginning to admit the reality of the fiscal situation. The collapse of the dollar is inevitable. When that happens, things like insurance will be the least of people's problems.

But believe me, the Central Government is going to do everything they can to convince as many as they can that everything is all good. Right up to the end they will be doing it. The fools that believed them and rely on Government are the ones who are going to be up a creek. I can guarantee you one thing, when the shit hits the fan, the Government will be more worried about saving itself than trying to save individual Americans. Things you thought would be unheard of or impossible to have happen in this country will indeed happen.

[Aradhus]

[

Take for instance the massive health care bill. It will give 35 million people insurance who don't have insurance now. That is all fine and dandy, but insurance is NOT health care. What good is it to have insurance if we don't have enough doctors to treat all those insured people? The bill does practically nothing to fix that problem. Also it never addressed the worst causes of rising health care costs, which in the end will end up costing the Taxpayer vast amounts of money for care that does not exist in the first place.

What did you think of the public option idea?

[patches70]

What did you think of the public option idea?

It would be more expensive than most realize. It is coming none the less though anyway, but-

Government doesn't really care about efficiency because when they are inefficient they just tax you more. There is no real sense of urgency to improve the process. I know, you hear lip service all the time about how the politicians are going to make things better in government but the decision making process is so convoluted that it takes forever for things to be studied, tested, debated, added earmarks, throw in the kitchen sink before final approval is ever made on things.

Thus, if the Government estimates it will cost X amount over Y amount of time you can be pretty darn sure that the actual costs will be X(10) over Y-(1/2 the time). When private companies are inefficient they go out of business, well, as along as the taxpayer doesn't bail them out that is.

The Government just can't be trusted to do a good job. These are the same people who can't even keep top secret documents from being viewed, downloaded and disseminated by a lowly private, and we are supposed to trust them to keep our medical affairs in order? Already record numbers of doctors are denying taking new medicare patients because of the poor reimbursement, red tape and added cost to keep all the paperwork in order. Government is just a nightmare.

Now, to keep stuff like what is happening with doctors not accepting new medicare patients, if the Government were to require doctors to see patients as whatever price that the Government deems a "fair" price, we have another problem in regards to liberty and rights. That is, the doctor is getting screwed.

And by God the hypochondriacs will eat up public funds like a pig gulping down swill.

However, the public option system will eventually come to pass, so it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about it. We will find out soon enough if it will work like the politicians want everyone to believe it will. That is, if everything doesn't totally fall apart before then. Just never forget, if the government is running something you will have to pay for it one way or another. Be it through taxes, fees, by the end of the bayonet or paid by your children and paid by their children, it will be collected out of us one way or another.

Hell, I am starting to get older now, I just might like it. I just might suck up as much "free" health care as I can get since all the young people will be working and paying for it.....LMAO.

[Aradhus]

What did you think of the public option idea?

It would be more expensive than most realize. It is coming none the less though anyway, but-

Government doesn't really care about efficiency because when they are inefficient they just tax you more. There is no real sense of urgency to improve the process. I know, you hear lip service all the time about how the politicians are going to make things better in government but the decision making process is so convoluted that it takes forever for things to be studied, tested, debated, added earmarks, throw in the kitchen sink before final approval is ever made on things.

Thus, if the Government estimates it will cost X amount over Y amount of time you can be pretty darn sure that the actual costs will be X(10) over Y-(1/2 the time). When private companies are inefficient they go out of business, well, as along as the taxpayer doesn't bail them out that is.

The Government just can't be trusted to do a good job. These are the same people who can't even keep top secret documents from being viewed, downloaded and disseminated by a lowly private, and we are supposed to trust them to keep our medical affairs in order? Already record numbers of doctors are denying taking new medicare patients because of the poor reimbursement, red tape and added cost to keep all the paperwork in order. Government is just a nightmare.

Now, to keep stuff like what is happening with doctors not accepting new medicare patients, if the Government were to require doctors to see patients as whatever price that the Government deems a "fair" price, we have another problem in regards to liberty and rights. That is, the doctor is getting screwed.

And by God the hypochondriacs will eat up public funds like a pig gulping down swill.

However, the public option system will eventually come to pass, so it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about it. We will find out soon enough if it will work like the politicians want everyone to believe it will. That is, if everything doesn't totally fall apart before then. Just never forget, if the government is running something you will have to pay for it one way or another. Be it through taxes, fees, by the end of the bayonet or paid by your children and paid by their children, it will be collected out of us one way or another.

Hell, I am starting to get older now, I just might like it. I just might suck up as much "free" health care as I can get since all the young people will be working and paying for it.....LMAO.

I'm confused, the public option was a health insurance program, not subsidized by government at all. If you wanted health insurance, you paid your premiums into the public option. Explain the "expensive".