tzor wrote:I would like to address your points one by oneFircoal wrote:The Republican Party has had many chances to try to get things done and make things better but constantly they have failed.
Not true, they have failed but not "constantly." They did a pretty good job in the Reagan era, ending the horrors of the Carter administration.
Only if you ignore longer term consequences, which Republicans are pretty good at doing.
Reagain created a short term boon by the expediency of ignoring any non-immediate cost. He TOOK what was supposed to be a Surplus for OUR Social Security and put it into the general budget. He cut spending on everything from schools and free lunches to training programs to roads, etc. Everything but military spending. The costs still mounted, he just decided not to pay for them. He did this while giving big business HUGE tax breaks. That did result in a temporary boon, but wound up with what we have today. A huge bust, children hungry in a way they were not in the 70's. High unemployment and a pretty bleak future for most average citizens, even with a rising economy.
Furthermore, he actually created this idea that the government was supposed to fix our economy. Sure, he argued in the negative sense.. saying government had to "get out of the way", but the impact was the same. The blame falls not on poor business decisions, poor investments, but on that nasty government.
tzor wrote:Fircoal wrote:They were the ones that made the big bubble of doom that created the ressession that we now have to deal with.
Total rubbish. The "big bubble of doom" was caused by a bi-partisan effort going back several administrations on the federal and state levels.
- State agencies placed severe land use limitations causing the prices of houses to go sky high (supply and demand)
Nice try. all that "locked up" land is actually our greatest resource. And sorry, but making a few parks, other protected areas is most definitely NOT what caused housing prices to skyrocket. In fact, if you check your facts, houses near those "wasteful" parks are ALL in very, very high demand... and most of those parks bring in a largess of tourist dollars that prior industries could not. Even when that is not absolutely true, we still benefit. But.. I am not making this a book by explaining all those benefits to you. Just click on almost any park and you can get the info right there on their websites.
tzor wrote:In response to this the Federal government instituted "home ownership" policies to people who could not afford these insane prices.
Home ownership was encouraged because home owners historically benefit communitees far more than renters. This is now being questioned, in some areas. However, the way the federal government encouraged this was through tax breaks and by allowing secured loans or traditional mortgages, so that banks were not really taking huge risks when they loaned money to average people. This is not really what drove the market up. That came much later.
tzor wrote:These policies forced banks to accept stupid loans, which they didn't mind because the sold them all to investors.
No bank was forced to accept ANY loan!
No, they went well out of their way to market loans that charged high interest. In many cases, the people who got those loans qualified fully for much better loans, but the banks wanted money, the loan officers wanted bonuses and there was no legal requirement that banks tell loan applicants that other types of better loans were available.
Add in some Wallstreet types who had the brilliant idea to bundle these mortgages and sell them as if they were then somehow worth something (the "securitized mortgages" aka "toxic assets"). AND, folks bought into that. No one bothered to look into it, most people (I mean wall street investors, etc.) even really understood what these things were and so .....
When a few of the loans started going down because some absolutely were given to people who could not afford, ADDED with the economic downturn, meaning that some people who originally could have afforded the mortgages now could not, AND then add in a good many outright terrible/fraudulant/predatory loans that caused people's rates to skyrocket from something reasonable to something utterly unreasonable, even if the economy had not failed...
Well, it only took a few of those to cause a problem.
Nothing about government forcing anyone to buy anything. Instead, a lot about the government not having oversight and banks not following even what rules there were. (which is why many, including Wells Fargo, are now being sued).
tzor wrote:People started making new markets for these bundled loans which ironically fell through the regulatory cracks. the bubble burst, shit happened and the rest was history.
Yep covered that, but it had nothing to do with the government forcing banks or anyone else to do anything and a whole lot about people being too greedy to really and truly care about how that money got into their pocket or to think that it might end.
tzor wrote:Most of this momentum was caused by two people, Democrats, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. At least the former is now a repetent sinner.
You will have to explain that one! But, given that the rest of your post was garbage, I am not expecting much there.
tzor wrote:Fircoal wrote:I don't understand why you would trust them.
Well, considering all the RINOS, I would simply say "trust but verify."
No, I prefer verify, then .. and ONLY then, trust. But then, I am a scientist, not a politician.
tzor wrote:Fircoal wrote:And the thing is there aren't a lack of alternatives as you say. The Libs, Socialists, and Greens are all valid alternatives.
"Libs?" Do you mean Libertarians or Liberals? Basically, if you meant "liberal" you are expressing the same type of progressive coffee only in medium, bold and extra bold flavors. If the alternate is some form of watered down Communism, I don't want any.
No, you mean Democrats.
Liberalism... and Liberaterianism are each very, very different from Communism.
Liberalism = paying attention to very long term consequences, not just short term economics, putting the value of the individual above corporations. Expecting the government to protect those that cannot protect themselves, not just big corporations. It is NOT about creating a big government, but it IS about creating effective government that serves people, not just those with money.
Liberaterianism = keep government out of everything.
tzor wrote:Fircoal wrote:Honestly the most likely wait to have reform is to elect new parties/people until the promises are actually completed and things are better for people.
The time is now. One can no longer wait. Constitutional rights are being thrown out the window left and right as we debate this. The perfect is the enemy of the good. If you wait for the perfect, by the time comes there won't be any process to get him into power.
I agree, but if you think the Republicans are better than the Democrats in that, then it means you are ignoring or have been extremely misguided about the past 30 years.
