tzor wrote: PLAYER57832 wrote:The trouble is that for Palestine, its probably already past the tipping point. Its hard to imagine that they can have a viable state with the territories they have left, never mind the territories that Israel continues to take.
"Palestine" is a sham, a cute logo adopted in order to give the PLO a cute name. Prior to Israel, Muslims in the region referred to themselves as "Arabs."
Yeah, cute. Don't worry about decimating an entire people, just say "those people don't exist!"
Israel has been playing that game since they arrived. After all, had they to admit they actually STOLE land from a real PEOPLE who existed, then it might poke a hole in this entire "God gave us this land" bit. Particularly if its mentioned that a good many of those prior occupants were Christian!
tzor wrote:It was the Jews in the region that referred to themselves as "Palistinians."
You can quibble over the name, but Anthropologists are pretty clear that Palestiniens were a distinct group with a culture distinct from other Arab groups. .
tzor wrote:Once the nation got its name, Jews identified themselves as "Israelis" and the term "Palistinians" was up for grabs.
DEAD WRONG on that. In FACT, there were 2 nations created, by law. Israel was formed of all the lands with a "majority" of Jews. Palestine was formed of the remainder, with a majority of Palestiniens. Note that the "majority Jewish" lands had a bare 51% Jewish presence. The Paletinien lands had 99% native populations. No true agreement to this was reached with the native populations. In fact, they were not even truly informed of the plan.. or that 51% Jewish presence likely would not have happened or would have been far shrunk. This was thrust upon the population by Europeans.
Even so, it was not good enough for the Jews. So, they antagonized Palestine. Jews tend to say that "Palestine started the war". Regardless, they brutally occupied and suppressed the Palestine NATION. Unlike Israel, Palestine did not have European support and was allowed to just die away before it even got a start.
Somehow, a few of those native people decided they were not happy with the arrangements. So, they continued to fight back, not realizing that Europe had already decided that these people had no right to the land they and their great, great, great, great,.... many times back as much as 2000 years (yep BEFORE the time of Christ!, BEFORE Israel was all but abandoned by Jews) had owned and occupied.
The PLO? Did you happen to notice the name? Its the "Palestinient LIBERATION Organization". The PLO did not even exist until AFTER Jewish occupation began! The PLO arose in defense. Funny, you get attacked, so you decide to fight and suddenly you are a terrorist? If you are dark skinned, yes. IF you happen to be white, then .. you are just "fighting for your freedom".
tzor wrote: Population density of the area was extreemely sparse.
Its called being nomadic, living in a desert. Sure, the Palestiniens did not have big farms like Israel created. But guess what? These people survived with their cultures for millenia.
tzor wrote: "Refugees" ironically have had the highest standard of living (thanks to UN help) of many of their neighbors.
Oh, you mean you think that living an a refugee camp compares with living in an Israeli settlement? How about those Palestiniens who had their olive and Orange groves plain taken? How about historic water rights that were ignored. Israel gets the best of everythihng and leaves Palestiniens only what it decides to "grace" them. Sure, they have no industry to speak of.. they are not ALLOWED to do so. Etc, etc, etc.
Israel OCCUPIED Palestine. By UN convention,they were required to respect the native populations, not destroy them. We were supposed to be past the says of saying " I want that land, I am stronger.. you can just leave".
tzor wrote: (So much so that Saudi Arabia would import them for their major construction projects.)
Oh, so you mean the reason we have so many Mexicans working up here is that they have a HIGH Standard of living? Gee.. I did not know that!
tzor wrote: But all of this is meaningless within the Gaza Strip where the genocide wanting Hammas is using its people like pawns in order to get the means necessary to exterminate the Jewish population.
Oh bull. Sure, many Arabs, particularly Palestiniens are angry. Who can blame them. And, TRUTH be told, Israel has no legal right to exist. All claims to it are fictitious and false. Even so, it is a done deal. Israel will continue and likely will be allowed to utterly do away with Palestine. As I said earlier, they pretty much have already.
However, what alternative do the Palestiniens really have? For 40 years, they pretty well bowed down, getting angry, but not really doing much. A few individual fights, but hoping that things would change, believing promises. Then, boys grew up and decided they had had enough. No more waiting. Rocks and stones turned to suicide bombers. When you are desperate, you do such things.
The west AND ISRAEL had a many opportunities to turn it around, support MODERATE, but decent schools, allow and build industry and agriculture. We and Israel declines. Israel decided to simply keep taking Palestinien land, bit by bit, when they thought no one was looking. The west simply could not be bothered, until this war started to impact oil resources. Then, suddenly we began noticing Palestine, but only in very tiny ways. Enough to fustrate and anger Palestiniens with our lack of aid, but not enough to change anything.
Except, we did accept a good many Israeli rejects. Once a Palestinien leaves the territory, as they have been called, they cannot return.. particularly not young males, not even to bury their faither (this happened to my friends).
tzor wrote: Real Palistinians want to freely go to Israel where the work is.
Actually, they would just as soon NOT have to cross and armed border, put up with daily searches and other indignities just to get enough money to feed their families. But, since Israel pretty has pretty well stifled any but a few businesses (and makes it very, very hard for those to make money), they have little choice BUT to put up with the indignities.
tzor wrote: They want peace, not states.
Actually, they want both. Israel has made it plain that Palestiniens are not going to be treated well within any borders it occupies.
tzor wrote: They want freedom, not borders and walls.
Very true. Israel keeps getting in the way, though. AND, keeps taking more and more and more and more land.
Originally, Palestine was a country roughly the same size as Israel. Now, they barely have enough land, land split into 2 pieces, that are by most estimates not enough to make a true viable state. It is a state that will, even if allowed to exist as it is, will always be dependent upon others... and THAT is what Israel wants, not a 2-state solution or partnership of any kind.
tzor wrote:They have two choices; one is incompitent, the other wants to use them as human shields. They are caught between the quicksand and the hard place. And if you want to know what? If they don't have the balls to do something about it, I don't have the desire to give a shit.
I see... so you think they should go out and strap bombs to themselves, too.
Sorry, I think that when we see one nation absolutely BULLYING another, we should not stand back and say "oh well.. its's
Israel, so that makes it OK". Israel is NOT a better nation than any other. In fact, it acts a good deal WORSE than most any other nation at present (Korea is worse, as are several other places, but Israel is certainly near the bottom regarding non-Jews!). So much for being a "Godly" nation!
So if it is not the Word of God that fuels your faith, what does? And chapter and verse please, because this I have not heard of.