"Pledge to America" Unveiled by Republicans

[BigBallinStalin]

You know what I like about this thread? Apart from the defense portion (and this new guy's very general, very by the book "Republican = facsist" rhetoric), it appears that everyone agrees with the Republican's "pledge." I've seen no real specific arguments against any of these planks, so I must assume you all agree. I think that's pretty awesome.

Some of the pledges are just great. Believing they will do it is quite another. What was their pledge that got us into this in the first place....to get us here so they could make this pledge to get us out? I suppose if that was their pledge...well done.

That, and it's more empty promises by another group of typical American politicians. TGD, I'm tired of the BS, and I won't buy it.

I don't buy it either, but, as I said above, the best chance for the things I agree with to get done is the Republican Party (not the Democrats, not the Libertarians, not the Socialists, not the Green Party). So, there is a distinct lack of alternatives. I had hoped that the president would take care of some of this (considering, again, his last state of the union address), but I have not yet seen any evidence that he is going to do any of these things.

Fair enough, and "Go get em, Tiger"

[john9blue]

you know couch, being moderate has its benefits...

[Phatscotty]

Government! Get out of the way!!!

Let me keep more of what I earn, and I will start a new business tomorrow morning, and hopefully create one job, maybe 2. I already know what I would do, I just need to earn/keep a little bit more

Letting you keep "more" of what you earn is all you want?

Fucking weak, man. Why not take everything you've earned? Why not abolish all of the market entry barriers that prevent the working class from becoming independent, self-employed contractors?

because, that isn't realistic and therefore a waste of time. I try to focus on the possible

So you're not actually a principled person.

At least we cleared that up.

dude, "deluded" is the answer I gave you from the very start.

Let me try it this way, cuz this is what I am hearing from you, correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that if I am not for abolishing ALL taxes, that I should not be vocating for a realistic drop in my federal taxes?

[PLAYER57832]

Yes.. mostly a bunch of garbage. Over half of it is Republicans trying to take credit for what already exists.
Then some non-specific and contradictory statements (cut spending, but give troops more, for example).

The only "real" issues will wind up harming most of the US, namely attempts to repeal insurance reform, taxing small businesses instead of focusing on bigger businesses, etc.

AND, general claims that all our current problems are due to Democrats, when in truth, the Republicans have been in power for most of the past 3 decades.

Taking credit for things that already exist? Most of the document is directly counter to what the Democrats have put in place over the past 2 years.

Oh please, the Democrats are responsible for TARP?
I don't know, don't think anyone really knows if what Obama did was the best that could have been done, but at least things ARE returning. The Recssion IS officially over, etc. Not bad for just 2 years!

The Republicans want to claim they have the "fix".. fine.. they had over 8 years to prove it. Sorry, but they failed. Two years is a bit short to claim that Obama isn't doing enough to stop an absolute train wreck. He HAS very much reversed things.

[And where are you and the White House getting the idea that these proposals raise taxes on small businesses?

Change the front, why don't you. I said they need to actually tax the big businesses. But yes, chaning to a 20% flat tax WOULD increase taxes on most small business.

The health care mandate is possibly the largest tax raise on small businesses ever passed, and this proposal specifically says that small businesses can deduct 20% of their income from their taxes.

The health care mandate means far more people are actually covered, which means fewer people are left on the taxpayer roles and indigent care rolls. Healthcare is not an option. You wish to claim it is, but it is not. Period.

[ No matter what the Republicans have done the past 3 decades, it pales in comparison to the massive government expansion and deficit spending from the past 2 years. Once Democrats got power, they absolutely ran with it and the country is against the direction they ran.

Pure bull.

And why on earth would ANYONE think that the Republicans have the answer after the absolute train wreck they left us with? This cry of "no more taxes" is smoke screen. We are having to pay taxes now because REPUBLICANS were too idiotic to insist people pay for infrastructure, etc earlier. They chose to tell eveyrone what they wanted to hear instead of taking the bull by the horn and saying flat out that you cannot have all those nice goodies upon which you depend for free.

And no.. it is NOT folks like myself and my neighbors who got all that largess. WE are the ones paying now, but we did not benefit much at all. Just look at the widening gap between the wealthy and poor.

Oh.. yes, and know that such disparity in wealth is a major indicator of a society about to fail. People don't like working and working only to be told that they cannot take their kid to the doctor because paying for health insurance would cut too much into some CEO's or stockholder's pocketbook. NOR do small businesspeople like that they have to pay 2 and 3 times what the big companies pay simply becuase the big companies can get away with paying less... or decline insurance.

[tzor]

North Korea doesn't have the range to hit any important target within the US with any good degree of accuracy--probably within the next 10-20 years, they might, but AGAIN like Iran they won't do it unless we invade them or unless we come to South Korea's aid in case the Korean War II starts.

Iran can't fire missiles that far nor any time soon, and Israel already has their missile defense system, which is perhaps the best in the world.

Well let's start off with Iran.



Now let's go with N Korea.



Sure we are safe, our allies are fucked.

(Let's face it, either way, India is fucked and all their missles are aimed at Pakistan.)

[Night Strike]

Oh please, the Democrats are responsible for TARP?
I don't know, don't think anyone really knows if what Obama did was the best that could have been done, but at least things ARE returning. The Recssion IS officially over, etc. Not bad for just 2 years!

The Republicans want to claim they have the "fix".. fine.. they had over 8 years to prove it. Sorry, but they failed. Two years is a bit short to claim that Obama isn't doing enough to stop an absolute train wreck. He HAS very much reversed things.

The Democrats had a majority in Congress when it was passed, so if they wanted to stop it, they could have. It's already been established that the previous Republicans failed, and that failure was epitomized in the passage of TARP, but that doesn't mean the party can't be changed (see below).

[And where are you and the White House getting the idea that these proposals raise taxes on small businesses?

Change the front, why don't you. I said they need to actually tax the big businesses. But yes, chaning to a 20% flat tax WOULD increase taxes on most small business.

I didn't change any front.....you posted

The only "real" issues will wind up harming most of the US, namely attempts to repeal insurance reform, taxing small businesses instead of focusing on bigger businesses, etc.

and I've already seen the small business tax hike on the White House page right after the pledge was announced.

The health care mandate is possibly the largest tax raise on small businesses ever passed, and this proposal specifically says that small businesses can deduct 20% of their income from their taxes.

The health care mandate means far more people are actually covered, which means fewer people are left on the taxpayer roles and indigent care rolls. Healthcare is not an option. You wish to claim it is, but it is not. Period.

More people being enrolled means more money out of the pockets of small businesses. So if you claim the onus is lifted off the public, it has not been removed from the picture. It has been slammed on the backs of small businesses which means fewer people will have jobs. It's quite simple math. And no, the government does not have the power to say that health care insurance is a right or a mandatory purchase.

[ No matter what the Republicans have done the past 3 decades, it pales in comparison to the massive government expansion and deficit spending from the past 2 years. Once Democrats got power, they absolutely ran with it and the country is against the direction they ran.

Pure bull.

And why on earth would ANYONE think that the Republicans have the answer after the absolute train wreck they left us with? This cry of "no more taxes" is smoke screen. We are having to pay taxes now because REPUBLICANS were too idiotic to insist people pay for infrastructure, etc earlier. They chose to tell eveyrone what they wanted to hear instead of taking the bull by the horn and saying flat out that you cannot have all those nice goodies upon which you depend for free.

The only ones saying bull are the ones who ignore the budget numbers from the past decade. Bush carried massive deficits and Obama tripled those deficits. It's FACTS, not bull. I'm sorry you can't read them. As to letting the Republicans lead, they can be trusted to lead for now because their ranks are being either decimated or influenced by the Tea Party. True Conservatives are running for government positions, and the current Republicans had better jump on the train or they're going to get voted out as well. Some of these Republicans are the same in name, but they are pushed by an entirely different electorate. And they'll probably listen to the electorate since they can see what happened when the Democrats failed to listen.

Oh.. yes, and know that such disparity in wealth is a major indicator of a society about to fail. People don't like working and working only to be told that they cannot take their kid to the doctor because paying for health insurance would cut too much into some CEO's or stockholder's pocketbook. NOR do small businesspeople like that they have to pay 2 and 3 times what the big companies pay simply becuase the big companies can get away with paying less... or decline insurance.

And people like to work and work and have the majority of their money go straight to the government? Because that's what you and others constantly espouse. I've already stated the employer-based health insurance system is horrible, but the only option on the table is to hand it over to the government. I guess people don't matter anymore, even though you always try to bring sob stories into arguments.

[comic boy]

So Night Strike exactly how much paid work have you done , how much tax have you contributed to the local and federal purse ?

[Night Strike]

So Night Strike exactly how much paid work have you done , how much tax have you contributed to the local and federal purse ?

Part time minimum wage jobs for 4.5 years, in addition to a brief time of contract work where I had to pay a crapload 25% in taxes. I also work for my education now. I'm not one of the people living off government handouts.

[Fircoal]

You know what I like about this thread? Apart from the defense portion (and this new guy's very general, very by the book "Republican = facsist" rhetoric), it appears that everyone agrees with the Republican's "pledge." I've seen no real specific arguments against any of these planks, so I must assume you all agree. I think that's pretty awesome.

Some of the pledges are just great. Believing they will do it is quite another. What was their pledge that got us into this in the first place....to get us here so they could make this pledge to get us out? I suppose if that was their pledge...well done.

That, and it's more empty promises by another group of typical American politicians. TGD, I'm tired of the BS, and I won't buy it.

I don't buy it either, but, as I said above, the best chance for the things I agree with to get done is the Republican Party (not the Democrats, not the Libertarians, not the Socialists, not the Green Party). So, there is a distinct lack of alternatives. I had hoped that the president would take care of some of this (considering, again, his last state of the union address), but I have not yet seen any evidence that he is going to do any of these things.

I find this post ridiculous.

[Baron Von PWN]

North Korea doesn't have the range to hit any important target within the US with any good degree of accuracy--probably within the next 10-20 years, they might, but AGAIN like Iran they won't do it unless we invade them or unless we come to South Korea's aid in case the Korean War II starts.

Iran can't fire missiles that far nor any time soon, and Israel already has their missile defense system, which is perhaps the best in the world.

Well let's start off with Iran.



Now let's go with N Korea.



Sure we are safe, our allies are fucked.

(Let's face it, either way, India is fucked and all their missles are aimed at Pakistan.)

uhm right. The reason they want nukes is because we have nukes. Once they get Nukes we don't dare invade them no mater how many reasons we make up.

[thegreekdog]

You know what I like about this thread? Apart from the defense portion (and this new guy's very general, very by the book "Republican = facsist" rhetoric), it appears that everyone agrees with the Republican's "pledge." I've seen no real specific arguments against any of these planks, so I must assume you all agree. I think that's pretty awesome.

Some of the pledges are just great. Believing they will do it is quite another. What was their pledge that got us into this in the first place....to get us here so they could make this pledge to get us out? I suppose if that was their pledge...well done.

That, and it's more empty promises by another group of typical American politicians. TGD, I'm tired of the BS, and I won't buy it.

I don't buy it either, but, as I said above, the best chance for the things I agree with to get done is the Republican Party (not the Democrats, not the Libertarians, not the Socialists, not the Green Party). So, there is a distinct lack of alternatives. I had hoped that the president would take care of some of this (considering, again, his last state of the union address), but I have not yet seen any evidence that he is going to do any of these things.

I find this post ridiculous.

Me too. And just watch, I won't even elaborate. I'll just swoop in and type "I find this post ridiculous" and then move on to other things I can criticize without substance.

[Fircoal]

Some of the pledges are just great. Believing they will do it is quite another. What was their pledge that got us into this in the first place....to get us here so they could make this pledge to get us out? I suppose if that was their pledge...well done.

That, and it's more empty promises by another group of typical American politicians. TGD, I'm tired of the BS, and I won't buy it.

I don't buy it either, but, as I said above, the best chance for the things I agree with to get done is the Republican Party (not the Democrats, not the Libertarians, not the Socialists, not the Green Party). So, there is a distinct lack of alternatives. I had hoped that the president would take care of some of this (considering, again, his last state of the union address), but I have not yet seen any evidence that he is going to do any of these things.

I find this post ridiculous.

Me too. And just watch, I won't even elaborate. I'll just swoop in and type "I find this post ridiculous" and then move on to other things I can criticize without substance.

I like to crit first, substance later. So here's the substance.

The Republican Party has had many chances to try to get things done and make things better but constantly they have failed. They were the ones that made the big bubble of doom that created the ressession that we now have to deal with. I don't understand why you would trust them. And the thing is there aren't a lack of alternatives as you say. The Libs, Socialists, and Greens are all valid alternatives. Whether you agree with or not, they haven't consistently turn their backs on the general public for their own benefit. I can see having Republican ideas even though I don't agree with them but I don't know how you can trust them to get anything done but create even more bonuses for Big Business and Lobbyists and burden us more with the costs. (Nor can you trust the Democrats.) No matter what your ideals are I don't know how you can say that the current party leaders and congress will actually get anything done. How I see it, it ain't happening. Honestly the most likely wait to have reform is to elect new parties/people until the promises are actually completed and things are better for people.

[BigBallinStalin]

North Korea doesn't have the range to hit any important target within the US with any good degree of accuracy--probably within the next 10-20 years, they might, but AGAIN like Iran they won't do it unless we invade them or unless we come to South Korea's aid in case the Korean War II starts.

Iran can't fire missiles that far nor any time soon, and Israel already has their missile defense system, which is perhaps the best in the world.

Well let's start off with Iran.


Now let's go with N Korea.
Sure we are safe, our allies are fucked.

(Let's face it, either way, India is fucked and all their missles are aimed at Pakistan.)

Well that's a different story.

The missile defense system is not really for our allies' benefit due to the fact that nuclear weapons when held by a nation are used for defensive means (aka deterrence). No one's going to launch anything unless they feel they're on the verge of losing everything, so no one will invade a nuclear-armed country. Therefore, Iran and North Korea obtaining nuclear weapons isn't a major threat to US intervention on behalf of its allies--it just reduces American options for attacking their enemies. [would you agree with this?]

I wouldn't say our allies are fucked, because if they were fucked, they'd already be smoked. So, to determine how much of a disadvantage a certain US "ally" is at, then one would have to look into multiple scenarios involving more than a belligerent country having the capability of launching nuclear weapons.

Overall, I don't see those country's nuclear programs as problems, but as a reaction to US hegemony, which in itself is really the problem (as BVP already mentioned more or less).

[jay_a2j]

Just add:

TERM LIMITS and a BALANCED BUDGET AMENDMENT and we might have something going here!

[tzor]

I would like to address your points one by one

The Republican Party has had many chances to try to get things done and make things better but constantly they have failed.

Not true, they have failed but not "constantly." They did a pretty good job in the Reagan era, ending the horrors of the Carter administration.

They were the ones that made the big bubble of doom that created the ressession that we now have to deal with.

Total rubbish. The "big bubble of doom" was caused by a bi-partisan effort going back several administrations on the federal and state levels.

1. State agencies placed severe land use limitations causing the prices of houses to go sky high (supply and demand)
2. In response to this the Federal government instituted "home ownership" policies to people who could not afford these insane prices.
3. These policies forced banks to accept stupid loans, which they didn't mind because the sold them all to investors.
4. People started making new markets for these bundled loans which ironically fell through the regulatory cracks.
5. the bubble burst, shit happened and the rest was history.

Most of this momentum was caused by two people, Democrats, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. At least the former is now a repetent sinner.

I don't understand why you would trust them.

Well, considering all the RINOS, I would simply say "trust but verify."

And the thing is there aren't a lack of alternatives as you say. The Libs, Socialists, and Greens are all valid alternatives.

"Libs?" Do you mean Libertarians or Liberals? Basically, if you meant "liberal" you are expressing the same type of progressive coffee only in medium, bold and extra bold flavors. If the alternate is some form of watered down Communism, I don't want any.

Honestly the most likely wait to have reform is to elect new parties/people until the promises are actually completed and things are better for people.

The time is now. One can no longer wait. Constitutional rights are being thrown out the window left and right as we debate this. The perfect is the enemy of the good. If you wait for the perfect, by the time comes there won't be any process to get him into power.

[Snorri1234]

http://money.cnn.com/news/economy/storysupplement/gop_pledge/

Those things sure are radical and totally different from what is already happening...

[Phatscotty]

You know what I like about this thread? Apart from the defense portion (and this new guy's very general, very by the book "Republican = facsist" rhetoric), it appears that everyone agrees with the Republican's "pledge." I've seen no real specific arguments against any of these planks, so I must assume you all agree. I think that's pretty awesome.

Some of the pledges are just great. Believing they will do it is quite another. What was their pledge that got us into this in the first place....to get us here so they could make this pledge to get us out? I suppose if that was their pledge...well done.

That, and it's more empty promises by another group of typical American politicians. TGD, I'm tired of the BS, and I won't buy it.

Don't blame ya. Will only point out that there is a chance this time. People are running for office who, if elected, would actually see a pay raise. I am glad that people are active in the primaries this time. I think America learned a lesson...

You need to be more involved than just vote twice a decade

[PLAYER57832]

So Night Strike exactly how much paid work have you done , how much tax have you contributed to the local and federal purse ?

Part time minimum wage jobs for 4.5 years, in addition to a brief time of contract work where I had to pay a crapload 25% in taxes. I also work for my education now. I'm not one of the people living off government handouts.

Oh lordy! PART-TIME work, and "paying for your education?" Well.. newsflash, if you worked part-time, minimum wage, in fact you were NOT paying taxes, even if it seemed like you were. And, you were most definitely not paying for the benefits you recieved. And... its pretty difficult to find even a shared room in many areas and food for just part-time minimum wages, so likely.. you were living with your folks at the time.

Further, did you truly pay for your elementary and secondary education? And... just paying tuition doesn't mean you are paying for your college, unless you attend a for profit institution. If you are, then its likely you are getting a pretty poor education, with only a few exceptions.

Unlike you, I don't begrudge payments for education, because I know I (not just the recipient) will benefit from having an educated taxpayer.

[Snorri1234]

... Phatscotty (presumably) and the rest of us "teaparty types" want the government to do the job spelled out specifically for it in the United States Constitution, and nothing else.

...

No you don't. You want the government to do what you think is in the constitution.

[DangerBoy]

The Republican Party has had many chances to try to get things done and make things better but constantly they have failed. They were the ones that made the big bubble of doom that created the ressession that we now have to deal with. I don't understand why you would trust them. And the thing is there aren't a lack of alternatives as you say. The Libs, Socialists, and Greens are all valid alternatives. Whether you agree with or not, they haven't consistently turn their backs on the general public for their own benefit. I can see having Republican ideas even though I don't agree with them but I don't know how you can trust them to get anything done but create even more bonuses for Big Business and Lobbyists and burden us more with the costs. (Nor can you trust the Democrats.) No matter what your ideals are I don't know how you can say that the current party leaders and congress will actually get anything done. How I see it, it ain't happening. Honestly the most likely wait to have reform is to elect new parties/people until the promises are actually completed and things are better for people.

The point I believe you're missing is that the Republicans haven't held true to the principles which they claim to follow. Some of those people have been rooted out so that there's a more clear choice between an economy that is free market vs. government-run. If the Republicans don't follow through on restoring free market principles then you'll probably see mass defections from it, and the creation of a new political party which truly embraces it.

[oVo]

• These policies forced banks to accept stupid loans, which they didn't mind because the sold them all to investors.
• People started making new markets for these bundled loans which ironically fell through the regulatory cracks.
• the bubble burst, shit happened and the rest was history.

That's absurd... nobody forced banks to accept stupid loans. They saw a way to make easy money and jumped on it. You're right about one thing, the bubble definitely burst and there are probably players in this game who assembled and sold those bundled loans that are as crooked a Bernie Maydoff. If you believe they didn't know the potential disaster their actions might cause you are as blind as the politicians who looked the other way allowing them to get away with it. The difference here is you didn't get paid to ignore the facts.

I know I (not just the recipient) will benefit from having an educated taxpayer.

The intelligence of tax payers is overrated and the majority of voters are clueless about who and what the issues are when they cast ballots. Misinformation and outright lies dominate political campaigns and the "educated" general public doesn't even possess the ability to sort through all the muck prior to voting. The education system in America benefits a few, but mostly just provides enough smarts to enable the continuation of a decent sized work force while the culture of ignorance and complaint festers and grows.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh please, the Democrats are responsible for TARP?
I don't know, don't think anyone really knows if what Obama did was the best that could have been done, but at least things ARE returning. The Recssion IS officially over, etc. Not bad for just 2 years!

The Republicans want to claim they have the "fix".. fine.. they had over 8 years to prove it. Sorry, but they failed. Two years is a bit short to claim that Obama isn't doing enough to stop an absolute train wreck. He HAS very much reversed things.

The Democrats had a majority in Congress when it was passed, so if they wanted to stop it, they could have.

The Democrats had a majority? Technically true, but in reality, this was a done deal backed by BOTH sides before the new adminstration came into office. At the time, it was the best idea out there. Republicans want to sit back and criticize and blame Obama, even when what he has done was actually a success. (note we are now OUT OF THE RECESSION!). But have yet to come up with real solutions.

Even this so-called agenda is just garbage and trying to take credit for what would already happen, like no more TARP.

It's already been established that the previous Republicans failed,

Nope, you have been pretty much defending them and blaming Obama for everything that is wrong. Now you want it both ways!

and that failure was epitomized in the passage of TARP, but that doesn't mean the party can't be changed (see below).

Let me just quote you:
" that failure was epitomized in the passage of TARP" (gee.. and you were just blaming Democrats for TARP, which is it?) ... "but that doesn't mean the party can't be changed" Well.. Myself, I would rather stick with the part that has actually DONE SOMETHING in its term, not hope the same old "do nothing" and "just say no" party will decide to change.

Democrats are far from ideal, but they absolutely beat the Republicans!

And where are you and the White House getting the idea that these proposals raise taxes on small businesses?

Change the front, why don't you. I said they need to actually tax the big businesses. But yes, chaning to a 20% flat tax WOULD increase taxes on most small business.

I didn't change any front.....you posted

The only "real" issues will wind up harming most of the US, namely attempts to repeal insurance reform, taxing small businesses instead of focusing on bigger businesses, etc.

and I've already seen the small business tax hike on the White House page right after the pledge was announced.

Well, post it... and not just snippets. Because the truth is that only those making over $250,000 a year in PROFIT.. hardly a "small business" by most people's token, will face any kind of increase. EXACTLY as Obama pledged in his campaign.

AND, saying on the one had that the Republican idea was to have a 20% small business tax, ironically enough would be an INCREASE for most businesses, not as you claim, a reduction.

The health care mandate is possibly the largest tax raise on small businesses ever passed, and this proposal specifically says that small businesses can deduct 20% of their income from their taxes.

The health care mandate means far more people are actually covered, which means fewer people are left on the taxpayer roles and indigent care rolls. Healthcare is not an option. You wish to claim it is, but it is not. Period.

More people being enrolled means more money out of the pockets of small businesses. So if you claim the onus is lifted off the public, it has not been removed from the picture. It has been slammed on the backs of small businesses which means fewer people will have jobs. It's quite simple math. And no, the government does not have the power to say that health care insurance is a right or a mandatory purchase.

[/quote][/quote]
No, the "simple math" is that if people, POOR and MIDDLE CLASS people have money in their pocket, they they buy things, use services and THAT supports small business far more than any "trickle down" baloney that is exactly the thinking that got us into this mess. Repeat: The REPUBLICAN "trickle down" idiocy is why we got into this recession, because you cannot keep taking off the backs of workers and expect to have a sustained ecnomy. Those "lazy workers" are, in fact, the ones who really move our ecnomy, not the bigwigs resting on stocks and bonds and other investments they often know little about outside of a balance sheet.

No matter what the Republicans have done the past 3 decades, it pales in comparison to the massive government expansion and deficit spending from the past 2 years. Once Democrats got power, they absolutely ran with it and the country is against the direction they ran.

Pure bull.

And why on earth would ANYONE think that the Republicans have the answer after the absolute train wreck they left us with? This cry of "no more taxes" is smoke screen. We are having to pay taxes now because REPUBLICANS were too idiotic to insist people pay for infrastructure, etc earlier. They chose to tell eveyrone what they wanted to hear instead of taking the bull by the horn and saying flat out that you cannot have all those nice goodies upon which you depend for free.

The only ones saying bull are the ones who ignore the budget numbers from the past decade. Bush carried massive deficits and Obama tripled those deficits. It's FACTS, not bull. I'm sorry you can't read them.

Except WHY did Obama triple that? See, he inherited a train wreck of an economy and 2 wars. Add in an utterly neglected road system, other infrastructure. Various things that OUGHT to have been making us money, like lease sales of minerals and such WE OWN, as tax payers, etc, etc, etc.

So.. again, its like blaming the fire department for not cutting costs in the midst of a raging fire. Democrats did NOT set this up. In fact, you have to go back to Reagan to find that. Clinton should have done better, but did not. Bush, however, given his situation, took us down a far more negative path than just about any president in history. HE had a wonderful economy, and drove us into recession instead of fixing things. He took us into one war, with the full blessing of the world, but then promptly used that as an excuse to basically abandon it and head into another war, without, it turns out, any real justification at all.

Obama's "crime", by contrast? ACTUALLY DOING THINGS TO FIX THE PROBLEMS! And, the worst part is that Obama has actually succeeded! No, he has not, in 2 years, utterly undone 30 years of idiocy and near absolute neglect, but things are beginning to turn in a better direction. However, all it takes is for Republicans to once more take charge --- because some idiots think gay marriage is the end of life as we know it, or any other cause, and we will watch our country truly head down into economic depression. Not recession, but depression. And, once we head down that path, it is highly unlikely we will be able to escapse, ESPECIALLY if either Republicans OR Tea-Partiers get control, because they will utterly neglect the real and true basis of our economy... the resources and the workers, in favor of some bigwig tax cuts and pasbys on regulations.

As to letting the Republicans lead, they can be trusted to lead for now because their ranks are being either decimated or influenced by the Tea Party. True Conservatives are running for government positions, and the current Republicans had better jump on the train or they're going to get voted out as well. Some of these Republicans are the same in name, but they are pushed by an entirely different electorate. And they'll probably listen to the electorate since they can see what happened when the Democrats failed to listen.

Oh.. yes, and know that such disparity in wealth is a major indicator of a society about to fail. People don't like working and working only to be told that they cannot take their kid to the doctor because paying for health insurance would cut too much into some CEO's or stockholder's pocketbook. NOR do small businesspeople like that they have to pay 2 and 3 times what the big companies pay simply becuase the big companies can get away with paying less... or decline insurance.

And people like to work and work and have the majority of their money go straight to the government? Because that's what you and others constantly espouse. I've already stated the employer-based health insurance system is horrible, but the only option on the table is to hand it over to the government. I guess people don't matter anymore, even though you always try to bring sob stories into arguments.

[/quote][/quote]

This is utter baloney. ON ALL fronts.
The REASON we have to "work and work" and get nothing is because the money goes to the bigwigs, not the things it ought to support, like infrastructure and education. And no, it sure isn't illegal aliens taking those taxes, either.. though this poppycock about "defending" the border (a problem WE created), is going to take a lot.

Your fear of universal health care is pure uneducated paranoia. I and many others have pointed out that ANY system other than ours means cheaper and generally better care overall, but you refuse any and all proof in favor of your unverified right wing sources. ALSO, you ignore the reality that there ARE many other systems, not just complete government control.

As long as you see the government as the enemy, then you will be feeding directly into what has hurt our country for the past 30 years, and in many cases prior to that... namely that a few people making huge profits get to decide what happens to the rest of us.

My forefathers fought against feudalism. I surely don't wish to return. And that is pretty much what the true Republican agenda will do.

And, for that matter, so will the so-called "liberaterian" agenda. Because its all about supporting Big Business, under the guise of "less government" and "fewer regulations".

[PLAYER57832]

I know I (not just the recipient) will benefit from having an educated taxpayer.

The intelligence of tax payers is overrated and the majority of voters are clueless about who and what the issues are when they cast ballots. Misinformation and outright lies dominate political campaigns and the "educated" general public doesn't even possess the ability to sort through all the muck prior to voting. The education system in America benefits a few, but mostly just provides enough smarts to enable the continuation of a decent sized work force while the culture of ignorance and complaint festers and grows.

Pretty much what "no child left behind" is all about. That, and the Christian right's insistance on "home schooling" so kids won't be "misinformed" by anything like real science.

[saxitoxin]

I know I (not just the recipient) will benefit from having an educated taxpayer.

The intelligence of tax payers is overrated and the majority of voters are clueless about who and what the issues are when they cast ballots. Misinformation and outright lies dominate political campaigns and the "educated" general public doesn't even possess the ability to sort through all the muck prior to voting. The education system in America benefits a few, but mostly just provides enough smarts to enable the continuation of a decent sized work force while the culture of ignorance and complaint festers and grows.

Pretty much what "no child left behind" is all about. That, and the Christian right's insistance on "home schooling" so kids won't be "misinformed" by anything like real science.

Wait - Player has started arguing with her own posts?

I suppose most of us saw this coming, and yet it is still ...

[Night Strike]

So Night Strike exactly how much paid work have you done , how much tax have you contributed to the local and federal purse ?

Part time minimum wage jobs for 4.5 years, in addition to a brief time of contract work where I had to pay a crapload 25% in taxes. I also work for my education now. I'm not one of the people living off government handouts.

Oh lordy! PART-TIME work, and "paying for your education?" Well.. newsflash, if you worked part-time, minimum wage, in fact you were NOT paying taxes, even if it seemed like you were. And, you were most definitely not paying for the benefits you recieved. And... its pretty difficult to find even a shared room in many areas and food for just part-time minimum wages, so likely.. you were living with your folks at the time.

Further, did you truly pay for your elementary and secondary education? And... just paying tuition doesn't mean you are paying for your college, unless you attend a for profit institution. If you are, then its likely you are getting a pretty poor education, with only a few exceptions.

Unlike you, I don't begrudge payments for education, because I know I (not just the recipient) will benefit from having an educated taxpayer.

Judge me on your own opinions and worldview all you want, but I don't care to share the personal details of my life with you.

And what world do you live in regarding public schooling? Everyone who owns property pays for their local schools, and anyone who pays income taxes has to fund schools via the federal and state governments. And I went to a private undergraduate school, so yes, I paid for my education, and will be paying off the loans for them for the next many years. Not all conservatives get things handed to them by their "rich" parents.