The Communist Manifesto

[saxitoxin]

What about communism?? what do you guys think?

I think it's a great idea that is completely impractical and won't ever work because it goes against human nature. I think that every time it has been tried in the real world it has failed because it fails to take selfish behavior into account.

People are selfish. Some more some less. Communism only works if NO ONE is selfish.

Let's pretend we argee it would work fine if only 10% of people were selfish. That would still guarantee failure as you will never get 90% of the people in this world to act in a selfless manner.

This kindergarten-level understanding of socialism was already succinctly and efficiently dismissed.

However, once it had been dismissed you went into Krazy mode and ran everyone off with a wiffle bat while screaming profanities and generally acting like a lunatic, leaving you free to re-argue it with yourself, sans opposition.

[Trephining]

Saxi, could you list some characteristics of the DDR (along with a concrete example or two for each) that you think a person should know if they wanted to learn about it?

That question is impossibly broad. Instead, perhaps you could pose a question or two - or succinctly itemize something you heard from the slavish western media - about the DDR (or any revolutionary worker's state) and I'll be happy to address it.

(Jim's style of interaction - screamed epithets interspersed with voluminous copy-and-paste jobs of wikipedia articles and threats to quit the board and never come back - doesn't lend itself to a real discussion by intelligent people.)

Can you list one characteristic then? Perhaps you could tell us why you picked that particular characteristic. It would be especially useful if it was one that you expect to defy the depiction the western media has created of the DDR.

[saxitoxin]

Saxi, could you list some characteristics of the DDR (along with a concrete example or two for each) that you think a person should know if they wanted to learn about it?

That question is impossibly broad. Instead, perhaps you could pose a question or two - or succinctly itemize something you heard from the slavish western media - about the DDR (or any revolutionary worker's state) and I'll be happy to address it.

(Jim's style of interaction - screamed epithets interspersed with voluminous copy-and-paste jobs of wikipedia articles and threats to quit the board and never come back - doesn't lend itself to a real discussion by intelligent people.)

Can you list one characteristic then? Perhaps you could tell us why you picked that particular characteristic. It would be especially useful if it was one that you expect to defy the depiction the western media has created of the DDR.

Again, this is an impossibly phrased question, but I'll give you three:

#1

Slavish Western Media: "The democratic-sector of Germany was a one-party state!"

Reality: There were five free and independent political parties operating in the democratic-sector of Germany. My own brother, as I have mentioned before, was not a member of Socialist Unity like myself but was, in fact, a member of the Liberal Democratic Party.

Rebuttal of Slavish Western Media: "But surely those were all front groups!"

Reality: If they were mere front groups, servile to the majority party, would they have been incorporated into their "west" German counterparts after the anschluss of 1990 - many of their leaders rising to political ranks in unified Germany on those party's tickets - or simply ignored and dismissed as one would ignore and dismiss a front group?

#2 -

Slavish Western Media: "The people of the democratic-sector of Germany aspired toward capitalist-imperialism and did not want anything to do with Socialist Unity!"

Reality: If that's the case why is it, in the last general election, the successor to Socialist Unity - Die Linke - received a plurality of votes in a majority of the electoral districts that comprise the former DDR?

#3 -

Slavish Western Media: "But, dude, like - what about all those pretty, well-framed, professional-lighted pictures of people 'spontaneously' climbing on top of the Berlin Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier in 1989?"

Reality: Have you ever wondered why a great majority of the people on the Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier in those photos are men? It's because the "west" German puppet government mobilized the territorial reserves to join in the staged 'celebrations' during events of '89. This has been well-documented even in western media since '89.


(On a personal note, I'd like to say it's a little sad when I have to craft both the argument and counter-argument in order to advance the discussion. This is telling about people's factual knowledge of these countries they were indoctrinated to distrust; falsehood and mistruth being poured into their brain as one would pour molasses onto pancakes.)

[jbrettlip]

I'll take on #2: Because lazy people like free shit.

[jimboston]

This kindergarten-level understanding of socialism was already succinctly and efficiently dismissed.

However, once it had been dismissed you went into Krazy mode and ran everyone off with a wiffle bat while screaming profanities and generally acting like a lunatic, leaving you free to re-argue it with yourself, sans opposition.

GFY you again added nothing to the discussion.

[jimboston]

Slavish Western Media: "But, dude, like - what about all those pretty, well-framed, professional-lighted pictures of people 'spontaneously' climbing on top of the Berlin Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier in 1989?"

I didn't know the Slavish Western Media called the Berlin Wall by it's true name, i.e. the Berlin Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier.

Give us all a break Saxi... if you are going to "argue both sides" at least be honest enough to use the language that your opponents would use.

If you are going to argue that the toppling of the Berlin Wall was choreographed by the West... and call this a "well documented" fact; at least be kind enough to point us to some reputable links that agree with you.

[Trephining]

Can you tell us about some of the aspects of everyday living in the DDR that were superior to those outside the DDR?

[jbrettlip]

Can you tell us about some of the aspects of everyday living in the DDR that were superior to those outside the DDR?

Free bullets...except they were moving really fast when the government handed them out.

[jimboston]

Can you tell us about some of the aspects of everyday living in the DDR that were superior to those outside the DDR?

You miss the point... being indoctrinated into this slavish capitalist society you wrongly believe that terms like 'quality of living' or 'standard of living' have some meaning and value. They don't

As an enlightened member of the proletariat vanguard I understand that true freedom is so much more valuable than your "living standards". Mind you... not the false freedom you blindly accept in the west... but true freedom with of a Liberal Democracy run by the workers and peasants, not by a secret cartel of the elite.

(Isn't it interesting that Saxi is obviously well educated... yet he insists that the DDR was a Gov't of the "workers and peasants". Why do all these socialist regimes use this phrase 'workers and peasants'? Why do they exclude the educated and industrious? It's also funny that all these countries seem to have a lot higher percentage of peasants then we have in our corrupt western-style capitalist system.)

[saxitoxin]

Give us all a break Saxi... if you are going to "argue both sides" at least be honest enough to use the language that your opponents would use.

Another solution would be to educate yourself enough to argue your own side instead of asking me to argue both your side and my side.

If you are going to argue that the toppling of the Berlin Wall was choreographed by the West... and call this a "well documented" fact; at least be kind enough to point us to some reputable links that agree with you.

This is a discussion, not an interrogation. If you provide some logical and sensible retort to all of my points I will be happy to provide you "reputable" sources to this one. (I won't hold my breath.)

Can you tell us about some of the aspects of everyday living in the DDR that were superior to those outside the DDR?

The DDR had free and universal health care through two national insurance carriers - one policy option was operated by the Free German Trade Union Federation and one was operated by the Ministry of Health. From the establishment of the DDR through the 1960s there was a mass exodus of physicians from the fascist-sector of Germany to the democratic-sector. This stopped only due to the strengthening of border controls.

In fact, since the anschluss of 1990, the Fascist Republic of Germany has started to adopt the DDR Polykliniken decentralized specialist centers as an efficient and patient-oriented improvement to their backwards and overworked, assembly-line system of factory-hospitals. (the so-called "socialized" medicine in Europe nowadays is dirty, factory-medicine that the plutocracy gives to the proletariat to get them to shut-up, reserving the best health care for themselves -- note that in Canada's Newfoundland recently the Premier needed an important heart operation so fled to Florida USA to get that procedure rather than go to a Canadian factory-hospital ... in a socialist state with real social-oriented medicine, superior health care is enjoyed by all)

[thegreekdog]

Saxi, could you list some characteristics of the DDR (along with a concrete example or two for each) that you think a person should know if they wanted to learn about it?

That question is impossibly broad. Instead, perhaps you could pose a question or two - or succinctly itemize something you heard from the slavish western media - about the DDR (or any revolutionary worker's state) and I'll be happy to address it.

(Jim's style of interaction - screamed epithets interspersed with voluminous copy-and-paste jobs of wikipedia articles and threats to quit the board and never come back - doesn't lend itself to a real discussion by intelligent people.)

Can you list one characteristic then? Perhaps you could tell us why you picked that particular characteristic. It would be especially useful if it was one that you expect to defy the depiction the western media has created of the DDR.

Again, this is an impossibly phrased question, but I'll give you three:

#1

Slavish Western Media: "The democratic-sector of Germany was a one-party state!"

Reality: There were five free and independent political parties operating in the democratic-sector of Germany. My own brother, as I have mentioned before, was not a member of Socialist Unity like myself but was, in fact, a member of the Liberal Democratic Party.

Rebuttal of Slavish Western Media: "But surely those were all front groups!"

Reality: If they were mere front groups, servile to the majority party, would they have been incorporated into their "west" German counterparts after the anschluss of 1990 - many of their leaders rising to political ranks in unified Germany on those party's tickets - or simply ignored and dismissed as one would ignore and dismiss a front group?

#2 -

Slavish Western Media: "The people of the democratic-sector of Germany aspired toward capitalist-imperialism and did not want anything to do with Socialist Unity!"

Reality: If that's the case why is it, in the last general election, the successor to Socialist Unity - Die Linke - received a plurality of votes in a majority of the electoral districts that comprise the former DDR?

#3 -

Slavish Western Media: "But, dude, like - what about all those pretty, well-framed, professional-lighted pictures of people 'spontaneously' climbing on top of the Berlin Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier in 1989?"

Reality: Have you ever wondered why a great majority of the people on the Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier in those photos are men? It's because the "west" German puppet government mobilized the territorial reserves to join in the staged 'celebrations' during events of '89. This has been well-documented even in western media since '89.


(On a personal note, I'd like to say it's a little sad when I have to craft both the argument and counter-argument in order to advance the discussion. This is telling about people's factual knowledge of these countries they were indoctrinated to distrust; falsehood and mistruth being poured into their brain as one would pour molasses onto pancakes.)

I'm taking a break from political threads, but I just wanted to say - DAMN THE SLAVS AND THEIR MEDIA!

[saxitoxin]

I'm taking a break from political threads, but I just wanted to say

I have tried to do that before but people keep PROVOKING poor ol' Sax what with sticking sharp objects in his cage and making faces at him or banging pots and pans about (What Is All The RACKET?!) and whosit and whatsit and such and so on and so forth.

There is clearly and obviously rampant Gang of Fivism occurring.

[jimboston]

Give us all a break Saxi... if you are going to "argue both sides" at least be honest enough to use the language that your opponents would use.

Another solution would be to educate yourself enough to argue your own side instead of asking me to argue both your side and my side.

I don't recall asking you to argue my side. Oh... that's because it didn't happen. Any false history and deflection from Saxi highlighted.

If you are going to argue that the toppling of the Berlin Wall was choreographed by the West... and call this a "well documented" fact; at least be kind enough to point us to some reputable links that agree with you.

This is a discussion, not an interrogation. If you provide some logical and sensible retort to all of my points I will be happy to provide you "reputable" sources to this one. (I won't hold my breath.)

I think it's pretty commonly accepted in the West that the people living in the Eastern part of Germany, which had been illegally occupied and controlled by the USSR, basically got sick of their plite and decided to rise up and join the modern capitalist democratic world.

You are putting forth a history that no one here would agree with... and stating that your view is the commonly accepted one... and you fail to provide any data or links to support this arguement. Then when asked to provide a source or two you throw up some BS. Typical Saxi move.

The DDR had free and universal health care through two national insurance carriers - one policy option was operated by the Free German Trade Union Federation and one was operated by the Ministry of Health. From the establishment of the DDR through the 1960s there was a mass exodus of physicians from the fascist-sector of Germany to the democratic-sector. This stopped only due to the strengthening of border controls.

More faux-facts with no evidence. Please define "mass-exodus" as used here. It's well known that people were fleeing the East and heading to West Germany... you are stating the opposite like it's a fact.

They have free health care in Cuba too... of course you can't get it, but when you do it's free.

(the so-called "socialized" medicine in Europe nowadays is dirty, factory-medicine that the plutocracy gives to the proletariat to get them to shut-up, reserving the best health care for themselves -- note that in Canada's Newfoundland recently the Premier needed an important heart operation so fled to Florida USA to get that procedure rather than go to a Canadian factory-hospital ... in a socialist state with real social-oriented medicine, superior health care is enjoyed by all)

Your two points here argue opposite positions.
# 1 - In what world are we to believe that socialized healthcare in a socialist state is better than socialized healthcare in a capitalist state. You have no evidence and this point goes against everything we learn from our slavish western media. You porport to educate us... yet you provide not info / facts /links that convince us all we have been taught is wrong?

# 2 - You show a case where socialized medicine sucks... and the capitalist medical system is better. Then you try to tell us that socialism is better than capitalism. You don't see this as being counter-intuitive?

[saxitoxin]

The DDR had free and universal health care through two national insurance carriers - one policy option was operated by the Free German Trade Union Federation and one was operated by the Ministry of Health. From the establishment of the DDR through the 1960s there was a mass exodus of physicians from the fascist-sector of Germany to the democratic-sector. This stopped only due to the strengtheni

More faux-facts with no evidence. Please define "mass-exodus" as used here. It's well known that people were fleeing the East and heading to West Germany... you are stating the opposite like it's a fact.

Jim - your entire post is drivel based on what sounds to you like may be the truth. It's nothing you've experienced, nothing you've even read. (BTW - no one was "fleeing" en masse from East to West. What utter garbage has been poured into your empty head that you've hungrily lapped up.)

You angrily pound out pages upon pages of speculation then turn around and ask me to refute each of your wild imaginings with specific citations.

Everything you said can be easily refuted but this is not an interrogation by US FBI secret police forces, this is a discussion. If you won't support your wild and unsubstantiated claims with specific sources I'm not going to jump and run to meet your demands.

Here's one citation from western media (and even this isn't even close to the full reality, but supports my declarations). Once you provide one in return I'll be happy to continue this as an intelligent discussion, not an angry monologue by some brainwashed Yankee.

TIME MAGAZINE
July 14, 1954

Growing Trickle. To many young West German doctors, the bait looks good. In contrast to the East, the Federal Republic of Germany has an increasing surplus of doctors. Of the republic's 69,109 registered physicians, 4,608 have no medical practice at all; they are unemployed, or making their livings in other ways. Pay for interns is low: 240 West marks ($60) a month. Even those with practices or hospital appointments have only limited opportunities. West Germany's currency reform wiped out the savings of many oldsters who were ready to retire, forced them to keep working instead of stepping aside for younger men.

There was considerable evidence last week that the seduction is getting results, and that West German practitioners are moving across to East Germany at the rate of several hundred a year to work under renewable one-year contracts.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 10,00.html

[jimboston]

I love how you selectively pull your quotes. How about these quotes from the same article...

East Germany's Communist leaders are extending themselves to ease a desperate shortage of doctors.

They must have had great healthcare with such a shortage of doctors.

Trained physicians are made citizens of special privilege, showered with medals and promotions to keep them from fleeing west.

Note... to keep them from fleeing...

Medical schools are being expanded, and a speedup has been instituted to rush thousands of students through training in only twelve months. Still far short of needs...

Again... doesn't give me confidence in the healthcare system

the Communists are also beckoning seductively to doctors in West Germany. The best doctors are promised an extra bourgeois dividend upon their arrival: a free house and servants.

It's nice to know that "the peoples gov't of worker's and peasants" has no problem throwing out their ideals when necessary.

." On the other hand, West German doctors do not overlook the plight of their ill-doctored countrymen and do not actually discourage transfers to Communist Germany. Said the association's secretary general, Dr. Joseph Stockhausen: "When doctors . . . ask us about the contracts the Communists are offering, we try to explain the terrible needs of the Eastern zone—as well as the risks. What else can we do?"

Looks to me like the movement of some doctors from West -> East during this period had a variety of causes.
===

Now my turn...

At the risk of a shot in the back, refugees continued to flee over, through, and under the hated Wall. Two East Germans astonishingly made it into West Berlin riding on a motorcycle; one young West Berliner last week explained how he had smuggled his fiancée out of East Berlin by strapping her to the bottom of his car and driving five miles to the checkpoint.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0wziTVmV5

Just one of many stories you can pull from Time talking about people fleeing East Berlin.

The minute the ban was lifted, they were on the move again. At midnight last Tuesday East Germans regained the right to travel to Czechoslovakia that had been taken from them a month ago. Within days more than 8,000 had crossed the border, and by the weekend Czechoslovakia flung open its Western border to let the growing flood pass unhindered into West Germany.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0wzjRDlnd

The people of East Germany must have been so happy... that's why they all ran as soon as the borders were open.
===

You're right I didn't experience these events personally. I was born in the 70's... so yeah I wasn't around in 1954.

You have no clue what I have or haven't read.

[saxitoxin]

You exist in a vacuum of imagination Gym.

There were 16.5 million people living in the DDR in 1989. You point to the "fact" - if, indeed, it is that - that 8,000 people went to the fascist-sector as if it was some A-HA moment.

There had been regular, and fully legal, cross-border traffic between the democratic-sector and fascist-sector for years. The DDR actually operated the railway lines in "west" Berlin throughout the Cold War. Over the years there were a handful of people who chose to exit the DDR not through an approved border crossing point but through a hyper-dramatic lunge across the Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier to the general befuddlement of the Volkspolizei.

(BTW, do you know that these days - in Finland - no more than 3,000 adult males are allowed to be out of the country at any one time?)

In almost all cases the reason they did this, as opposed to simply walking up to a crossing point with their passport, was that they were petty criminals wanted on outstanding warrants. The west never bothered to publicize that fact, of course.

The west also fails to note one of the reasons for securing the border was due to the fact that fascist-sector troops had a habit of randomly firing at DDR police and civilians, literally using them as target practice, as in the case of Rudi Arnstadt, a DDR police officer killed when "west" German troops decided to just randomly open fire with automatic weapons on east Berlin one day. A wall to protect the US from a handful of Mexican gangsters is okay but a wall to protect Berlin from a million-man army isn't? Give me a break.

LE SIGH

I love how you selectively pull your quotes. How about these quotes from the same article...

East Germany's Communist leaders are extending themselves to ease a desperate shortage of doctors.

They must have had great healthcare with such a shortage of doctors.

Trained physicians are made citizens of special privilege, showered with medals and promotions to keep them from fleeing west.

Note... to keep them from fleeing...

Medical schools are being expanded, and a speedup has been instituted to rush thousands of students through training in only twelve months. Still far short of needs...

Again... doesn't give me confidence in the healthcare system

the Communists are also beckoning seductively to doctors in West Germany. The best doctors are promised an extra bourgeois dividend upon their arrival: a free house and servants.

It's nice to know that "the peoples gov't of worker's and peasants" has no problem throwing out their ideals when necessary.

." On the other hand, West German doctors do not overlook the plight of their ill-doctored countrymen and do not actually discourage transfers to Communist Germany. Said the association's secretary general, Dr. Joseph Stockhausen: "When doctors . . . ask us about the contracts the Communists are offering, we try to explain the terrible needs of the Eastern zone—as well as the risks. What else can we do?"

Looks to me like the movement of some doctors from West -> East during this period had a variety of causes.
===

Now my turn...

At the risk of a shot in the back, refugees continued to flee over, through, and under the hated Wall. Two East Germans astonishingly made it into West Berlin riding on a motorcycle; one young West Berliner last week explained how he had smuggled his fiancée out of East Berlin by strapping her to the bottom of his car and driving five miles to the checkpoint.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0wziTVmV5

Just one of many stories you can pull from Time talking about people fleeing East Berlin.

The minute the ban was lifted, they were on the move again. At midnight last Tuesday East Germans regained the right to travel to Czechoslovakia that had been taken from them a month ago. Within days more than 8,000 had crossed the border, and by the weekend Czechoslovakia flung open its Western border to let the growing flood pass unhindered into West Germany.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z0wzjRDlnd

The people of East Germany must have been so happy... that's why they all ran as soon as the borders were open.
===

You're right I didn't experience these events personally. I was born in the 70's... so yeah I wasn't around in 1954.

You have no clue what I have or haven't read.

[Metsfanmax]

In almost all cases the reason they did this, as opposed to simply walking up to a crossing point with their passport, was that they were petty criminals wanted on outstanding warrants. The west never bothered to publicize that fact, of course.

Do you have a source for that? I'd actually be interested in reading about that.

[jimboston]

(BTW, do you know that these days - in Finland - no more than 3,000 adult males are allowed to be out of the country at any one time?)

What does this have to do with the discussion?

Nothing.

If true it is a weird/odd side-fact about a Finland that we aren't talking about that can't be related in anyway to what we are talking about.

This is typical Saxi. Like a good magician he uses slight-of-hand to befuddle his audience with odd motions/facts... all while working his faux-magic to produce so illusion that socialism is good.

[jimboston]

There had been regular, and fully legal, cross-border traffic between the democratic-sector and fascist-sector for years...

Over the years there were a handful of people who chose to exit the DDR not through an approved border crossing point but through a hyper-dramatic lunge across the Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier to the general befuddlement of the Volkspolizei.

The west also fails to note one of the reasons for securing the border was due to the fact that fascist-sector troops had a habit of randomly firing at DDR police and civilians, literally using them as target practice, as in the case of Rudi Arnstadt, a DDR police officer killed when "west" German troops decided to just randomly open fire with automatic weapons on east Berlin one day.

I do love your use of language... let me translate...
Commonly Used Term = Saxi Reinvention

Berlin Wall = Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier
Democratic West Germany = Facist Sector
USSR Controlled East Germany = Democratic Sector
Patriot / American Soldier = Fascist-Sector Troops

Your revisionist history is an awesome read Saxi... please write a book, I promise I will buy a copy.

If I believe even a fraction of what you say... everything I have ever been told, everything I have ever read, everything I have ever watched on TV, it's all a complete crock.

Thank you for enlightening this world for me. Now I see it for what is it... a complete sham. I am Truman (not the president... but from the movie the Truman show).

Please give me the Democratic DDR view of the barricading on Berlin. You know... when US planes were forces to air-drop supplies to west Berlin because the Soviet's had decided to blockade normal shipments overground. It'll be interesting to see what spin you put on this...

[saxitoxin]

Gym, to each and every point in this thread thus far you have responded by waving your arms wildly in the air and suffering us with a parade of horribles.

Unfortunately, 'World's Worst Human Rights Violator'* is not the topic of this thread. It is telling when one tries to deflect and move the topic with Parades of Horribles when one finds ones position vis a vis the topic untenable.

Alas, my interest in continuing a discussion with someone who thinks "Family Guy" is the pinnacle of human culture is drawing to close. I think I've made my points succinctly enough that any reasonably intelligent casual observer will make a right-minded choice in their valuation of the ebb and flow of this discussion.

To those who may have asked me some question or tried to engage me in discussion and to whom I did not respond, I apologize. I may not have heard you over the loud din of Gym's big bass drum and assorted other paraphernalia in his all-consuming noise machine. Perhaps some other time.

Celebrate Rainbows & Sunshine!
Uncle Saxi
Unofficial CC Happiness Ombudsman

* beside, that title is held by, in this order: (1) fascist Japan, (2) Mongolian Empire, (3) Holland, (4) Paraguay under Gen. Stroessner, (5) Canada

[MeDeFe]

There had been regular, and fully legal, cross-border traffic between the democratic-sector and fascist-sector for years...

Over the years there were a handful of people who chose to exit the DDR not through an approved border crossing point but through a hyper-dramatic lunge across the Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier to the general befuddlement of the Volkspolizei.

The west also fails to note one of the reasons for securing the border was due to the fact that fascist-sector troops had a habit of randomly firing at DDR police and civilians, literally using them as target practice, as in the case of Rudi Arnstadt, a DDR police officer killed when "west" German troops decided to just randomly open fire with automatic weapons on east Berlin one day.

I do love your use of language... let me translate...
Commonly Used Term = Saxi Reinvention

Berlin Wall = Anti-Fascism Defense Barrier
Democratic West Germany = Facist Sector
USSR Controlled East Germany = Democratic Sector
Patriot / American Soldier = Fascist-Sector Troops

Your revisionist history is an awesome read Saxi... please write a book, I promise I will buy a copy.

"Revisionist history"? What are you talking about? Uncle Saxi used very accurate translations of the proper German terminology from before 1989. That they were terms used in the German Democratic Republic is a different matter, but accusing him of revisionism on such flimsy grounds is a bit silly.

[kernov]

You do sometimes have to feel for the x stasi among us , there deluded world/life was taken away suddenly from them. Leaving a void some of them just havent been able to fill.

[saxitoxin]

Leaving a void some of them just havent been able to fill.

I've primarily been focused on filling the void between your mum's legs.

[jimboston]

Leaving a void some of them just havent been able to fill.

I've primarily been focused on filling the void between your mum's legs.

This sounds like the distraction and banging of drums of which you accuse me...

[jimboston]

Gym, to each and every point in this thread thus far you have responded by waving your arms wildly in the air and suffering us with a parade of horribles.

Unfortunately, 'World's Worst Human Rights Violator'* is not the topic of this thread. It is telling when one tries to deflect and move the topic with Parades of Horribles when one finds ones position vis a vis the topic untenable.

Alas, my interest in continuing a discussion with someone who thinks "Family Guy" is the pinnacle of human culture is drawing to close. I think I've made my points succinctly enough that any reasonably intelligent casual observer will make a right-minded choice in their valuation of the ebb and flow of this discussion.

To those who may have asked me some question or tried to engage me in discussion and to whom I did not respond, I apologize. I may not have heard you over the loud din of Gym's big bass drum and assorted other paraphernalia in his all-consuming noise machine. Perhaps some other time.

* beside, that title is held by, in this order: (1) fascist Japan, (2) Mongolian Empire, (3) Holland, (4) Paraguay under Gen. Stroessner, (5) Canada

This random collection of words means nothing.

I have provided examples of you contradicting yourself... you ignore these.

I provide links to media reports that refute what you say... you ignore these.

I expand on links you provide that supposedly back-up your points... the expansion refutes what you say, but you ignore it.

All the while you say I am bangin' drums... and then you try to bash Family Guy, which is BTW the funniest fuckin' show on TV today (or at least top 5).

Yet not once have you actually refutes one fact or opinion.

OK... go home with your ball now...