Versions of the Bible

[b.k. barunt]

Before you start to seriously study any version of the bible I would suggest that you first read Bart D. Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why".

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170

Then once you have done that and realize how flawed the bible is, I would suggest that you start reading a more accurate account of the teachings of Jesus Christ by picking up a copy of The Book of Mormon.

Ah yes, "Misquoting Jesus" - right up there with "Twilight" as far as "accurate accounts".

Have you read it? I have, and it looks real convincing if you don't check any of his footnotes. However if you do such, instead of just reading and accepting this reheated version of a 17th century attack on the KJV Bible, you'll get quite a different picture. The guy who wrote it is not a scholar and he says nothing original. He's a ragpicker who's profited nicely from the already debunked work of others by packaging it in contemporary form.

Like i said i read it - a couple of former students of mine were befuddled by it and asked me to critique it so i did. I checked a lot of his footnotes and compared them with the conclusions he'd drawn - if you've never studied the Bible yourself and you're too lazy to look into his references you could easily be confused or impressed by it. I have a lot of notes written in the margins of my copy of the book so if you'd like to debate it with me start a thread.

As i recall you didn't do a real bangup job in our friendly discussion on the Book of Mormon.


Honibaz

[PLAYER57832]

. . . but even the King James Bible was not immune to political sloppiness; the classic hebew prohibition against people who used poisons "thou shall not permit a poisoner to live" was adjusted to "witch" to justify the various witch trials across most of Europe, both in Protestant and Catholic locations.

First of all i never heard of any "classic Hebrew prohibition" against poisoning or poisoners. I don't believe poisoning was that big of a problem in the Hebrew culture to warrant such - maybe you could provide a link?

Secondly the Hebrew word for witch in the Mosaic law "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is kashaph. It's a primary root word that means "to whisper a spell, i.e. to enchant or practice magic." There is nothing to do with the use of potions with that word, so for someone to confuse it with "poisoning" would be highly unlikely. I don't know where you're getting your info but it's very inaccurate.


Honibaz

I had never heard the poisoning reference, but I am curious, are you familiar with the witches-physician association? I have heard this in two directions. That is, I have heard that in ancient times, "physicians" largely practiced witchcraft or worshipped other gods. I have also heard, however, that the term physician and "witch" were just close and that in the middle ages, when alchemy, etc were prevalent, it was easy for people to confuse the 2.

[bradleybadly]

I have a lot of notes written in the margins of my copy of the book so if you'd like to debate it with me start a thread.

As i recall you didn't do a real bangup job in our friendly discussion on the Book of Mormon.


Honibaz

I would so enjoy reading a discussion on that.

BK Barunt, are you a Christian? Sometimes it sounds like you would make a great apologist for the cause and other times it seems like you're pissed off at Christianity. I notice that in a previous post you said NT Christians are under a rule of mercy and grace, but you said it like it was a different group of people than yourself. Also, do you believe the Bible is literally true?

[King Doctor]

I have a lot of notes written in the margins of my copy of the book so if you'd like to debate it with me start a thread.

As i recall you didn't do a real bangup job in our friendly discussion on the Book of Mormon.


Honibaz

I would so enjoy reading a discussion on that.

I second that.

[demonfork]

Before you start to seriously study any version of the bible I would suggest that you first read Bart D. Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why".

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170

Then once you have done that and realize how flawed the bible is, I would suggest that you start reading a more accurate account of the teachings of Jesus Christ by picking up a copy of The Book of Mormon.

Ah yes, "Misquoting Jesus" - right up there with "Twilight" as far as "accurate accounts".

Have you read it? I have, and it looks real convincing if you don't check any of his footnotes. However if you do such, instead of just reading and accepting this reheated version of a 17th century attack on the KJV Bible, you'll get quite a different picture. The guy who wrote it is not a scholar and he says nothing original. He's a ragpicker who's profited nicely from the already debunked work of others by packaging it in contemporary form.

Like i said i read it - a couple of former students of mine were befuddled by it and asked me to critique it so i did. I checked a lot of his footnotes and compared them with the conclusions he'd drawn - if you've never studied the Bible yourself and you're too lazy to look into his references you could easily be confused or impressed by it. I have a lot of notes written in the margins of my copy of the book so if you'd like to debate it with me start a thread.

As i recall you didn't do a real bangup job in our friendly discussion on the Book of Mormon.


Honibaz

Yea I know the dude is a real scrub...

Didn't you know? All of the rag-pickers out there get their PH-D's and Masters of Divinity's form Princeton Theological Seminary.

Yes I have read it and if you had also read it you would know that he states many times that he is not putting forth any new concepts that other bible scholars have not already put forth or already known about. In Fact the author that wrote a rebuttal to Misquoting Jesus entitled "Misquoting Truth" even agreed with the information in Dr. Ehrmans book but argued why the truth of this information didn't mean that you had to lose your faith because of it as Dr. Ehrman ultimately did.

As far as debating the accuracy of what he wrote I would be glad to. Bring it on.

And yea, you really pwned me in our Mormon discussion , dude I completely ripped your argument to shreds in that discussion but its cool if you see it otherwise... denial is the most primitive defense mechanism.

I would also be glad to debate Mormonism with you anytime as well, I've battled professional anti-mormons and won, you make good practice.

[2dimes]

I've battled professional anti-mormons and won, you make good practice.

Uh?

[2dimes]

Where do "professional anti-mormans" work?

When they do battle what weapons do they use?

You know, there's like a boat-load of gangs at this school. This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bow staff.

[demonfork]

Where do "professional anti-mormans" work?

When they do battle what weapons do they use?

You know, there's like a boat-load of gangs at this school. This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bow staff.

They work all over the world...to clarify when I say "professional anti-mormon" I mean someone that gets paid a salary to bash Mormonism.

They use weapons provided by Satan (lies, deceit, manipulation, etc)

[2dimes]

I have honestly never heard of "professional anti-mormans" and you would think there'd be a lot of work for them here with such a high morman population.

[DangerBoy]

to clarify when I say "professional anti-mormon" I mean someone that gets paid a salary to bash Mormonism.

They use weapons provided by Satan (lies, deceit, manipulation, etc)

A salary from whom? Is there a real company that pays people a salary to do this? I know of a few speakers who used to be Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses who now go around talking about how they left those organizations, but they hardly bash. They just tell their life story.

[pimpdave]

Wait, demonfork, explain this then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

Why do you hate black people? Why are you a racist?

Why did Mormons kidnap and rape teenage girls and then lie about it? Why did they murder anyone who got in the way of their deviant sexual practices? How is that a more accurate teaching of "love thy neighbor"?

Why did Joseph Smith admit that his peepstoning was a fraud in a NY court if it was true? Christian apostles were willing to be executed for their beliefs, but Smith wasn't even willing to pay a fine and do a short stint in county. How do you explain that?

Why has your church hijacked the Boy Scouts of America and are using it to force Mormon ideas down the throats of children who really just want to learn how to make a fire and tie knots?

How is the Book of Mormon, which was revealed to only one guy who lied about the whole thing and was barely literate, more likely to be the accurate word of God than the Bible, which is compiled from many different authors?

How is your cult any different from others, like Scientology?

And if your only answer is, all that stuff is lies, then you're not answering the questions.

[zebraman]

Why do you hate black people? Why are you a racist?

Everytime I've asked this to the guys who knock on the door they say that people outside the faith just don't understand what the real stance was back in the day. Why don't they just admit that they had a doctrine which ostracized blacks? I forget which denomination it was, but they also had practiced segregationist and racist views but finally made an apology about 10 years ago.

[PLAYER57832]

Wait, demonfork, explain this then:

Not being Mormon (and definitely not believing the book of Mormon), I none-the-less take issue with a few of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

Why do you hate black people? Why are you a racist? Why did Jesus come to earth from another planet to only save white people?[/quote]
This was an old belief, since rescinded. I, too have a problem with an infallible book that seems to justify racism. However, the church now says that "make white" basically menas "make pure" and is not necessarily a racial reference.

Why did Mormons kidnap and rape teenage girls and then lie about it? Why did they murder anyone who got in the way of their deviant sexual practices? How is that more accurate?

Early mormons were not necessarily friendly to non-Mormon settlers in Utah, etc. However a lot of that was revenge against how they were treated. As for underage marriages... I can point to quite a few elderly women who married at age 15-16. As for the kidnapping.. I am sure it happened, but is not something the church currently condones.

Why has your church hijacked the Boy Scouts of America and are using it to force Mormon ideas down the throats of children who really just want to learn how to make a fire and tie knots?

LDS has used the Boy Scouts/cub scouts as their religious organization, rather than creating their own institutions. It was seen as a way to make the boys "old fashioned American", etc. They got into trouble on more than one occasion with the Boy Scouts because they were discriminating, not allowing boys who were not LDS to earn religious awards, etc. (this happened where I grew up, so I know it is fact). I believe the matter was settled, though I cannot remember how. The Boy Scouts do not object to any religious institution sponsoring a Boy Scout or Cub Scout Troop. Ours is, in fact sponsored by the local Roman Catholic church. However, any group that actively discriminates against boys of other faiths is not allowed to continue under the Boy Scout auspices.

How is the Book of Mormon, which was revealed to only one guy who lied about the whole thing and was barely literate, more likely to be the accurate word of God and the Bible, which is compiled from many different authors, less likely?

This one, I will let demonfork address. on his own.

How is your cult any different from others, like Scientology?

Careful here. Many Evangelical type Christian groups call essentially any group that is not Christian or that practices a form of Christianity with which they disagree (Roman Catholicism is sometimes included, though for some reason Protestant churches often are not) to be a "cult".

I prefer the less antagonistic definition that says a cult is a group thatactively discouraged from thinking for themselves or questioning their teachings (as opposed to saying "here is what we believe .. not go check it out), where a few at the top tend to get wealthy or benefit in other ways (sometimes sexual, sometimes just power, etc), etc. You can find cults within just about any broad religious umbrella.

[PLAYER57832]

I forget which denomination it was, but they also had practiced segregationist and racist views but finally made an apology about 10 years ago.

This would likely be the Southern Baptist convention. I think it was about then that they made an official and unequivocal apology.

[pimpdave]

Player, let the mormon answer. And they were kidnapping and raping and murdering all across the US. Missouri was a big target of theirs.

[demonfork]

Wait, demonfork, explain this then:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE

Why do you hate black people? Why are you a racist?

Why did Mormons kidnap and rape teenage girls and then lie about it? Why did they murder anyone who got in the way of their deviant sexual practices? How is that a more accurate teaching of "love thy neighbor"?

Why did Joseph Smith admit that his peepstoning was a fraud in a NY court if it was true? Christian apostles were willing to be executed for their beliefs, but Smith wasn't even willing to pay a fine and a short stint in county. How do you explain that?

Why has your church hijacked the Boy Scouts of America and are using it to force Mormon ideas down the throats of children who really just want to learn how to make a fire and tie knots?

How is the Book of Mormon, which was revealed to only one guy who lied about the whole thing and was barely literate, more likely to be the accurate word of God than the Bible, which is compiled from many different authors, less likely?

How is your cult any different from others, like Scientology?

And if your only answer is, all that stuff is lies, then you're not answering the questions.

I believe that I have already answered most of these questions the last time that you asked them in a similar hi-jacked fashion but if you want to start a new thread that deals specifically with Mormonism I would be glad to debate it with you.

[pimpdave]

What are you calling hijacked? You're the one who brought up the book of Mormon.

Anyway, nice dodge there. And you never answered the questions.

[demonfork]

What are you calling hijacked? You're the one who brought up the book of Mormon.

Anyway, nice dodge there. And you never answered the questions.

Are you brain dead?

what part of "start a new thread and I would be happy to debate it with you" is a dodge?

[b.k. barunt]

Like the man said - you brought up the subject.


Honibaz

[squishyg]

Before you start to seriously study any version of the bible I would suggest that you first read Bart D. Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why".

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170

Then once you have done that and realize how flawed the bible is, I would suggest that you start reading a more accurate account of the teachings of Jesus Christ by picking up a copy of The Book of Mormon.

thanks, but i'm not looking to hook up with any organized religion. i've just never read the whole Bible, and i thought it would be interesting. so far i'm finding God to be kinda mean. the flood in Genesis was pretty harsh. what could humans, not to mention birds, cattle, and all other living things, have possibly done to deserve a genocide?

[b.k. barunt]

What has a fly done to deserve getting eaten by a spider?


Honibaz

[2dimes]

The crime of cows is being delicious.

I wasn't there but I suspect they were arguing on the internet forums. Suggesting the best version of cave paintings was one in a language no one there actually used. God got tired of it and e-mailed Noah to build an ark, he set his facebook status to "Taking some animals for a boat ride. brb LOL" and here we are.

Let me know how you do in leviticus and deuteronomy. I have never made it through most of the old testement. I don't have a problem with the concept in theory but even some modern Jews refer to it as, "The sacrificial cult." I find it interesting that now it has passed we can't relate to it.

I did something wrong, now I kill a bird. I guess if it were active I probably wouldn't get it not being Hebrew.

[squishyg]

What has a fly done to deserve getting eaten by a spider?


Honibaz

nothing, but i expect more from God than from a spider.

[Maugena]

What has a fly done to deserve getting eaten by a spider?


Honibaz

Bad analogy.

[2dimes]

I think partially it comes down to, animals don't have souls. From my point of view I'm thinking the same thing as you, "Well that bird doesn't deserve to die." I think their substance must return straight to God. Maybe that makes the length of their life cycle a non issue. They die they just go straight to heaven or whatever you want to call it.

Something else stange about the flood is, why? The story of Ananias and his wife Sapphira in acts says they are struck dead. If I were God I'm thinking that's the way to go. Strange, maybe the flood was a neater way to dispose of the bodies.

I have heard there is variations of a flood with escape story in every culture with literature.