San Francisco [Quenched]

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:35 am

the bonuses do need to be re-looked at...

-oaklands was 4 based on previous sea connection routes that are now gone, alameda to china basin is a realistic sea route, but it creates too many borders in downtown to make it ever holdable....
-marins was based on angel island being a border, with the new alcatraz rule, angel island isnt really a border, because your continent cannot be broken from there....

one option is to remove the sausalito-->fishermans wharf ferry...(removing one of downtowns borders...and adding in a alameda-->china basin ferry...thereby holding downtowns borders the same, increasing oaklands by 1, and holding marins the same because sausalito is still a border to the presidio....?

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:56 am

Molacole wrote:Oakland is not worth 4 points.

You're right - we're worth five or six at least.

-oaktown [-(

casper · Post by **casper** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:02 pm

This map is shaping up nicely! Glad to see you changed the font.

One more request. The Twin Peaks area looks kinda weird all black. Would it be possible for you to make it green like the land along the water next to Alameda is?

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:24 pm

The Twin Peaks area looks kinda weird all black

i see you know san francisco...

yeah i can try and give it a little color...

luckiekevin · Post by **luckiekevin** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:54 pm

- I like the idea of Alcatraz being unique: not part of a continent, can't attack out. I'm never a fan of bonuses or penalties for owning a single territory, because then it's luck of the draw.

Oaktown, my idea was merely in response to your post. I agree that it shouldn't get an automatic plus 1 just for "luck of the draw"

if you have to own Marin or Downtown simultaneously to get a bonus, it gives Alcatraz Value, and doesn't let any aspect of advantage in regards to this map fall to the "luck of the draw" as you said.

Maybe this aspect should be put to a vote since a number of people are for having it be a +1 from the start on its own. And another group of people like the +1 if held simultaneously with Marin or Downtown.

either way, we all win because this map is going to rock

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:44 am

either way, we all win because this map is going to rock

well said...well said...

font poll is basically done...so ill put alcatraz to a poll too...

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:52 am

so I guess a moderator has to change the poll?
new poll up!

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:18 pm

Old Poll Results:

which font is the best...?

green cont...
10% [ 2 ]
yellow cont...
10% [ 2 ]
red cont...
10% [ 2 ]
purple cont...
10% [ 2 ]
cyan (light blue) cont...
57% [ 11 ]

Total Votes : 19

--Andy

EvilOtto · Post by **EvilOtto** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:44 pm

luckiekevin wrote:Maybe this aspect should be put to a vote since a number of people are for having it be a +1 from the start on its own. And another group of people like the +1 if held simultaneously with Marin or Downtown.

What if the rule was +1 for alcatraz and ANY other continent... sure it would most likely be fought over by marin and downtown... but it might make it more interesting in the early game (since no one will get downtown for a while).

Guiscard · Post by **Guiscard** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:54 pm

EvilOtto wrote:
luckiekevin wrote:Maybe this aspect should be put to a vote since a number of people are for having it be a +1 from the start on its own. And another group of people like the +1 if held simultaneously with Marin or Downtown.

What if the rule was +1 for alcatraz and ANY other continent... sure it would most likely be fought over by marin and downtown... but it might make it more interesting in the early game (since no one will get downtown for a while).

Yeh I'd back this idea. That would make it very much worth holding for anyone, rather than a bone tossed between the two bordering continents.

If you go with the one way inwards border, however, there's gonna have to be another connection between marin and downtown.

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:41 pm

What if the rule was +1 for alcatraz and ANY other continent...

way to come up with another option after the poll is started! ha. should we restart? or let it run...I guess if marin/downtown wins then we can ask if people want to make it any continent...people voting marin/downtown are the ones who want it to not be a first round bonus anyway., so we can discuss if it wins...

If you go with the one way inwards border, however, there's gonna have to be another connection between marin and downtown.

there is still the sausalito/fishermans wharf boundary. i proposed ditching it, but its still there...for now.

luckiekevin · Post by **luckiekevin** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:21 pm

Evil Otto, I like your idea. I'd be up for a second vote after the results of this one.

DIRESTRAITS · Post by **DIRESTRAITS** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:39 pm

I think Alcatraz should have some bonus, I don't care which

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:31 am

Well, sorry if I comment something already suggested... I didnt read all the thread.

1st, congratulations on the graphics, I think they are very very good.

Now, playability:

Im completely against Alcatraz having a bonus. If you would include it in a continent, surely its Marin. But being neutral is ok, too. From the poll option, I would choose the 3rd. Is there a reason to it have a bonus? It was a prison, should be a negative then.

I think we can solve 2 problems with one strike. The problems are:
- water routes in alcatraz areas that seem ilogical.
- Downtown having 7 borders, ie, unholdable.
The solution:
Remove Sausalito to Fisherman route. Change the position of Alcatraz name, move it a bit to south, and west. Put a direct route between Angel Island and Alcatraz, than another one between Alcatraz and Pacific (this one will replace Alcatraz to Fisherman). Done, problems solved!

Next point: South San Francisco is a large continent on the border, connected to another big continent... well, almost useless. I think we could use another country dispersion there:
1- merge Golden Gate Park with Outer and Inner Sunsets.
2- remove the border between Outer Sunset and Ingleside.
3- both Sunset's join the purple continent.
4- to maintain the number of territories, you can add the gray area to Downtown.
5- remove Potrero Hill as border territory, to again reduce Downtown borders to 6. To do this, extend Bernal a bit, until it reach the sea.

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:21 am

marv you make some interesting points...thanks.

first off...downtown has 6 borders, potrero hill is not connected...however I can see that the water area next to it does not make it clear that it is not connected to hunters point. I will fix that and make it clearer.

The problem with the ferry routes, is deciding if you want better playability/look or realism.
-I can change the angel island to alcatraz ferry route, but that is the actual route that the ferry takes. the port is on the north side like that. I do have no problem changing that graphic though to make it a simple straight line.
-ive already thought about removing sausalito/fisherman connection. It would reduce the borders to 5. which is very manageable.
-alcatraz/pacific heights would make it easier to hold, however the ferry does not go there. so it just depends on if people care about accuracy? well do you all...?

as far as the second point...
Im not sure why having two large continents next to eachother is a big problem? I mean I could start redrawing all those borders, but maybe you can explain better why it needs to happen?

thanks for all the great feedback! you made many interesting points!

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:13 am

general
-changed potrero hill/hunter's point border, hopefully making it clearer that you cannot attack between the two.
-gave twin peaks color (center spot of SF) and gave color to mountains at the top of the map. look better?
ferry routes
-moved alcatraz text down
-changed alcatraz ferry routes, now not true to real life, but cleaner looking.
-added arrows to alcatraz ferry routes, hopefully indicating one way.
-alcatraz ferry now connects to pacific heights, not realistic, but lowers borders of downtown even more.
-removed saulsalito/fishermans wharf ferry, reducing downtown borders

what do you guys think? pay specific attention to the new ferries. are they better or worse?

wrightfan123 · Post by **wrightfan123** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:28 pm

I hate the idea that you can't attack with Alcatraz. What if that's the only territory you have left? Then you die! It would be muy suctactualr. Change it.

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:38 pm

What if that's the only territory you have left? Then you die!

chances are if you have one territory left you'll lose anyway.

i have no problem changing it, but pretty much everyone who has posted in this entire thread has liked that idea...(it wasnt even mine to start). we can poll it once the current poll is finished.

oaktown · Post by **oaktown** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:45 pm

wrightfan123 wrote:I hate the idea that you can't attack with Alcatraz. What if that's the only territory you have left? Then you die! It would be muy suctactualr. Change it.

If you know going into the game that you're done if you get isolated in Alcatraz, you do what you can to avoid it. It adds an interesting twist to the game.

That said, I'm concerned that if you can't attack out of Alcatraz, you probably also can't fortify out of Alcatraz. It would suck to start with Alcatraz, or to play an Alcatraz card, because those are lost armies.

Johloh - you moved the Alcatraz ferry connection so that there would be fewer downtown borders to defend, but if Alcatraz can't attack the Wharf it wouldn't be a defense point. If Alcatraz is going to remain attack-in only yo can put the attack route back in FW.

I still feel that if Alcatraz is going to be unable to attack, there needs to be a benefit to owning it so that players want it. Plus 1, I say.

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:48 pm

I still feel that if Alcatraz is going to be unable to attack, there needs to be a benefit to owning it so that players want it. Plus 1, I say.

yeah the +1 is going to happen. we just need to decide through the poll if its a right off the bat bonus, or something you can earn later in the game.

sam_levi_11 · Post by **sam_levi_11** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:50 pm

change it so you can attack out of alcatraz

i think its a novel idea but not practical. change it

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:10 pm

change it so you can attack out of alcatraz

dont worry. we will be voting on it.

bedplay · Post by **bedplay** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:15 pm

johloh wrote:
I still feel that if Alcatraz is going to be unable to attack, there needs to be a benefit to owning it so that players want it. Plus 1, I say.
yeah the +1 is going to happen. we just need to decide through the poll if its a right off the bat bonus, or something you can earn later in the game.

can you do that?!

I'm sure you can't. maybe you'd have to have it different, like... if you own alcatraz AND another continent you get a +2 bonus, that way it's something worth fighting for.

Oaktown, 2 lost armies at the start and 2 if you get unlucky and have a card with it on, it really doesn't add upto much, just imagine you don't have that card and have one for somone elses territory....

sam_levi_11 wrote:change it so you can attack out of alcatraz

i think its a novel idea but not practical. change it

I don't see HOW it's not practical, it really won't alter the flow of gameplay that much...

It just adds something that if you want to take it you can, if you don't then just do your own thing and don't attack it.... it's kind of like... an optional choke point, you can defend it if you want, but if you don't want to split your' forces, then you can forget about it.

One thing though johloh, is there any way of adding another ferry route there from another continent in the bay?

at the moment green, red and purple are the only ones that really have acces to it, if you added another route from Berkeley or El Cerrito, yellow and blue would have access to it as well.

Edit: also, purple isn't worth +3, it's the same amnt of countries and borders as yellow, but +1 more

either make both yellow and purple +3 and green +4 or make purple +2

johloh · Post by **johloh** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:22 pm

is there any way of adding another ferry route there from another continent in the bay?

realistically no. BUT, it wouldnt be too crazy to add in a connection from berkeley to alcatraz (berkeley does have a marina). and this wouldnt increase oaklands borders any either...sound good?

bedplay · Post by **bedplay** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:33 pm

That sounds great to me, it makes alcatraz accesible from nearly every continent, so you could have a +1/+2 bonus if you hold
Oakland & alcatraz,
Marin & alcatraz,
Contra Costra & alcatraz,
Downtown & alcatraz,
The Richmond & alcatraz

johloh wrote:berkeley to alcatraz (berkeley does have a marina).

I'm sure someone in the bay has sailed/boated from berkeley to alcatraz before :lol: