Arizona vs. Illegal Aliens

[PLAYER57832]

Because then the same companies would forego the new legalized people and hire more illegals, which would be cheaper.

ergo high fines and real enforcement per employers.

Or using Player's plan of extra taxes on employers of the new legal workers, that would make them more expensive than citizens, so the employer would not hire the new legal workers. Which would make them unemployed and dependent on society. So we would still have people crossing the border, yet have another 20 million on social programs. Great resolution.

Having a job is a primary requirement. They would have some time to find a new job, a month, maybe more. They would most definitely not be eligible for social services.

In some cases, their citizen children might be, but they are citizens.

[PLAYER57832]

Cracking down does not increase crime. Cracking down increases ARREST RATE. The crime was already happening. More officers can catch more criminals. Taking your logic to extremes, maybe we should get rid of the police! That would take crime to zero!

That is the theory. Too often, what really happens is that activities, be it growing drugs, transporting immigrants, etc become profitable enought to attract REAL criminals.

We saw this with marihuana crackdowns and, many tie the increase in murders, smugglers who are just as happy to transport drugs as people, etc along the border with border crackdowns.

Also, this is by no means limited to Mexico. Russia and China each have rings of human traffikers, often for prostitution. Some of these networks are so tight that law enforcement barely has a glimpse at their extent. AND, worse, too often it is the victims who get put into jail, sent home where they and/or their families face recrimination from the groups "home" arms. Legislation was passed a few years back to try and give some of these victims a modicum of amnesty, but it is minimal.

[PLAYER57832]

Look, Jet., I am not talking esoterically here. I am old enough to have seen the change. I can remember being astounded that the farm workers would talk of basically just walking across the border to come up to get work. At first, traffickers would ask a few hundred to get folks across. Then it went to a couple thousand. Now, I hear horror stories of people locked in trucks, people who pay cayotes 4-5 thousand, only to be left in the desert or taken to a housw where tehy are told they have to agree to either participate in drug trafficking/prostituion, etc. If they have kids, the kids are often taken hostage. More and more of the threats extend back to families left behind in Mexico or south America.

The drug trade is very much tied, now to the illegal worker trade. Legalizing workers won't eliminate the drug trade, but it will free up border agents to pay attention to real, dangerous crime -- the drug traffickers, those who might truly have terroristic intent. Further, when the workers are legalized law enforcement will have a ready and willing supply of witnesses, people who understand the culture and "politics" below the border far better than a US agent can.

We will be building friends, bridges with our neighbors to the south.

Few people complain about all these Canadiens who come here to "take our jobs". In fact, a large number of Canadiens DO work here. A fair number of people come from many countries. However, the numbers of people allowed to come legally from South America and Mexico have never matched the need for workers.

[Phatscotty]

Player. Where did you go to school? What is your highest grade level completed? I promise I won't say anything and only ask honestly to understand you better.

[PLAYER57832]

Player. Where did you go to school? What is your highest grade level completed? I promise I won't say anything and only ask honestly to understand you better.

That you think this information is relevant, says a lot.
I have listened to people with only an elementary education who taught me a lot. I have also, more than a few times, taught PhDs.

[jbrettlip]

reading Player's posts, even when I disagree with her, tells me she is highly educated. I believe she has a degree in biology or wildlife or something. Just because you don't (nor I on lots of issues) agree with her doesn't make her a high school drop out.

[Phatscotty]

Player. Where did you go to school? What is your highest grade level completed? I promise I won't say anything and only ask honestly to understand you better.

That you think this information is relevant, says a lot.
I have listened to people with only an elementary education who taught me a lot. I have also, more than a few times, taught PhDs.

yes of course. I have a different reason for asking, and as I said, I'm not asking to give you any crap one way or the other. I get the feeling you have went to a slightly different school, perhaps outside the country?

perfect example. For me, yes I am an economics major (master? I did not study the same brand of Economics that 98% of my countrymen did. I studied a different kind and come at economic issues from angles most never considered. I would understand if an economics major asked me the exact same question I am asking you. And then, hopefully, we could continue the discussion.

[PLAYER57832]

Player. Where did you go to school? What is your highest grade level completed? I promise I won't say anything and only ask honestly to understand you better.

That you think this information is relevant, says a lot.
I have listened to people with only an elementary education who taught me a lot. I have also, more than a few times, taught PhDs.

yes of course. I have a different reason for asking, and as I said, I'm not asking to give you any crap one way or the other. I get the feeling you have went to a slightly different school, perhaps outside the country?

perfect example. For me, yes I am an economics major (master? I did not study the same brand of Economics that 98% of my countrymen did. I studied a different kind and come at economic issues from angles most never considered. I would understand if an economics major asked me the exact same question I am asking you. And then, hopefully, we could continue the discussion.

Well, see, I studied fisheries, the evironment and worked in the field for a long time. I even did study a bit of economics.

As for "angles almost never considered", you would do well to understand the background that makes your economics work. You dismiss what I say about our dependence on the world around us perhaps not to your peril, but definitely to that of your grandchildren and great grandchildren.

See, that's the difference. I don't truly dismiss what you say you know. I do some, because you tend to focus a lot on the immediate and not see very much of the "big picture" in a variety of areas. However, I dismiss it because I do understand what you are saying, why you say it.. I just see more of the overall picture. You, to contrast, like to dismiss what is big and complex because it doesn't seem to impact you right now, today. People have done this historically, and soceities fail, historically, as a result.

[Nobunaga]

Well, see, I studied fisheries, the evironment and worked in the field for a long time. I even did study a bit of economics.

As for "angles almost never considered", you would do well to understand the background that makes your economics work. You dismiss what I say about our dependence on the world around us perhaps not to your peril, but definitely to that of your grandchildren and great grandchildren.
See, that's the difference. I don't truly dismiss what you say you know. I do some, because you tend to focus a lot on the immediate and not see very much of the "big picture" in a variety of areas. However, I dismiss it because I do understand what you are saying, why you say it.. I just see more of the overall picture. You, to contrast, like to dismiss what is big and complex because it doesn't seem to impact you right now, today. People have done this historically, and soceities fail, historically, as a result.

... You guys talking about our national debt and deficit?

...

[PLAYER57832]

Well, see, I studied fisheries, the evironment and worked in the field for a long time. I even did study a bit of economics.

As for "angles almost never considered", you would do well to understand the background that makes your economics work. You dismiss what I say about our dependence on the world around us perhaps not to your peril, but definitely to that of your grandchildren and great grandchildren.
See, that's the difference. I don't truly dismiss what you say you know. I do some, because you tend to focus a lot on the immediate and not see very much of the "big picture" in a variety of areas. However, I dismiss it because I do understand what you are saying, why you say it.. I just see more of the overall picture. You, to contrast, like to dismiss what is big and complex because it doesn't seem to impact you right now, today. People have done this historically, and soceities fail, historically, as a result.

... You guys talking about our national debt and deficit?

...

In my case, I am talking about much more than that.

[Nobunaga]

Well, see, I studied fisheries, the evironment and worked in the field for a long time. I even did study a bit of economics.

As for "angles almost never considered", you would do well to understand the background that makes your economics work. You dismiss what I say about our dependence on the world around us perhaps not to your peril, but definitely to that of your grandchildren and great grandchildren.
See, that's the difference. I don't truly dismiss what you say you know. I do some, because you tend to focus a lot on the immediate and not see very much of the "big picture" in a variety of areas. However, I dismiss it because I do understand what you are saying, why you say it.. I just see more of the overall picture. You, to contrast, like to dismiss what is big and complex because it doesn't seem to impact you right now, today. People have done this historically, and soceities fail, historically, as a result.

... You guys talking about our national debt and deficit?

...

In my case, I am talking about much more than that.

... I saw that bit about screwing over our grandchildren and the "stimulus" came to mind.

... What thread is this? Aliens & Arizona, I see.

... Saw a bit on 60 Minutes this evening, a report on, I believe it's called, "The American Canal", runs along the California/Mexico border. Apparently many illegals have drowned trying to swim across the thing. (Not totally on topic, but close).

...

[PLAYER57832]

My response to phat got a bit off topic. Answering similar stuff in about 5 threads. The thread where I really get into this is the economics one.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Arizona FTW!

[Symmetry]

Arizona FTW!

Well played

[Nobunaga]

... Immigrants (probably both legal and illegal) and their supporters marched in protest to the new Arizona law, angry at the government of Arizona over the "draconian" law.

... Tea party activists gather nationwide to protest the ever-expanding role of government and the enormous deficits we must pass on to our children.

... Immigrant marches end in riots and vandalism.

http://www.kionrightnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12413465
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9FF2SAO0

... Tea party protests end peacefully.

... And who is vilified in the media? (as well as here on the CC forums)

... Go figure.

....

[PLAYER57832]

Two incidents, unrelated. The tea party has not always been entirely peaceful. They just neatly disclaim anyone involved in violence, after the fact. However, that is another thread.

As for the immigration reaction, though I don't justify the violence, you have to realize that emotions are going to a bit more intense when the issue is splitting up families, putting people in jail and utterly changing their lives, versus the tea party issues of taxes.

[Nobunaga]

Two incidents, unrelated. The tea party has not always been entirely peaceful. They just neatly disclaim anyone involved in violence, after the fact. However, that is another thread.

As for the immigration reaction, though I don't justify the violence, you have to realize that emotions are going to a bit more intense when the issue is splitting up families, putting people in jail and utterly changing their lives, versus the tea party issues of taxes.

... You are only seeing the surface, ignoring the truth of it. These attacks by the marchers on local businesses were obviously motivated by racism. How you cannot see that, I can't understand.

...

[bedub1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html

Predictably, groups that favor relaxed enforcement of immigration laws, including the American Civil Liberties Union and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund, insist the law is unconstitutional. Less predictably, President Obama declared it “misguided” and said the Justice Department would take a look.

Presumably, the government lawyers who do so will actually read the law, something its critics don’t seem to have done. The arguments we’ve heard against it either misrepresent its text or are otherwise inaccurate. As someone who helped draft the statute, I will rebut the major criticisms individually:

[notyou2]

Looks to me like the red neck extremist religious right is looking for a scapegoat to blame current problems on. They happened to find one that also fits the racial bill.

[bedub1]

Looks to me like the red neck extremist religious right is looking for a scapegoat to blame current problems on. They happened to find one that also fits the racial bill.

law breakers?

[john9blue]

Yeah those idiot racist rednecks, enforcing the law that has always been there and should have been enforced ages ago.

Get fucking real, notyou.

[Symmetry]

:lol: Yeah those idiot racist rednecks, enforcing the law that has always been there and should have been enforced ages ago.

Get fucking real, notyou.

Always been there? Care to take a bet that the Arizona law turns out to be against the Constitution?

[john9blue]

It has not been there since the beginning of time. My bad.

And if it is against the Constitution , then that's up for the judges to decide, but it doesn't change the fact that they were illegal at the time of immigration.

[Phatscotty]

Well, the US has a lot of food and a lot of space, so I guess it has a large carrying capacity, if that's how it's defined.

For humans, that would include everything needed to keep up lifestyles with cars, fancy houses, etc. So... a lot more than you might think. Also, we would have to leave room for more than just humans. We do depend on the natural environment, even if most of us rarely deal with it directly.

I don't really think that "fancy houses" for the few should be prioritised over a basic standard of living for the many. I don't think that the rest of the world is obliged to remain in poverty in order to maintain a certain standard of Western lifestyle.

Of course, it's the natural environment in other countries that truly suffers to maintain the pristine condition of natural spaces in the West.

In my country, people are free to build/purchase however large or small a home they want to. I myself could afford much, MUCH nicer. I choose to live in a studio across the street from my work to save money on housing and gas. If the opportunity to live in a large home in my retirement becomes unavailable in the future, then there is no need for me to live beneath my means and work hard to save for my goal to retire in a nice large comfortable home for my entire family if I so choose to. It's all about providing for my family. period.

I believe with all my heart that so long as I keep working hard and live my life responsibly, my family will be taken care of, and if hard times come like they certainly ALWAYS DO, then I should be able to provide a cushion for my family. period.

That's awesome! Who built your studio?

Well, that's an unfair question. I'm sure that no illegal immigrants were involved in its construction. Illegals mostly steal white people's jobs, right? And if you give them money via an agent, it's not like you're really cashing in on crime yourself.

I'm glad that you made the distinction between Americans (White Americans if you live in Arizona) who work to provide for their families, and illegals who work solely to annoy conservatives, and possibly to pay for crime.

dude, the only one that is constantly bringing up race is you. I dont even get what you mean anymore

[Phatscotty]

Player. Where did you go to school? What is your highest grade level completed? I promise I won't say anything and only ask honestly to understand you better.

That you think this information is relevant, says a lot.
I have listened to people with only an elementary education who taught me a lot. I have also, more than a few times, taught PhDs.

yes of course. I have a different reason for asking, and as I said, I'm not asking to give you any crap one way or the other. I get the feeling you have went to a slightly different school, perhaps outside the country?

perfect example. For me, yes I am an economics major (master? I did not study the same brand of Economics that 98% of my countrymen did. I studied a different kind and come at economic issues from angles most never considered. I would understand if an economics major asked me the exact same question I am asking you. And then, hopefully, we could continue the discussion.

Well, see, I studied fisheries, the evironment and worked in the field for a long time. I even did study a bit of economics.

As for "angles almost never considered", you would do well to understand the background that makes your economics work. You dismiss what I say about our dependence on the world around us perhaps not to your peril, but definitely to that of your grandchildren and great grandchildren.

See, that's the difference. I don't truly dismiss what you say you know. I do some, because you tend to focus a lot on the immediate and not see very much of the "big picture" in a variety of areas. However, I dismiss it because I do understand what you are saying, why you say it.. I just see more of the overall picture. You, to contrast, like to dismiss what is big and complex because it doesn't seem to impact you right now, today. People have done this historically, and soceities fail, historically, as a result.

thank you for that, and the only thing I would disagree with, is that the big picture is what guides me, the big picture is what I try to focus on. I challenge you on all issues in the future on a "big picture" scenario and we will likely find you did not know how truly "big" the picture can be.