Ireland map [Quenched]

kevinc · Post by **kevinc** » Tue May 30, 2006 8:04 am

Actually, I've a minor change that I'm going to make, I'm going to change the name of the regions like you suggested.

I'll send it on to lack once it's done.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Tue May 30, 2006 9:40 am

I believe that some continents have more borders than they should, and 5 continents is too much... Just my opinion. Anyone with me?

Fieryo · Post by **Fieryo** » Tue May 30, 2006 1:55 pm

is there a way the colors of the continents can be altered? right now they are too light and not very distinguishable from one another.

thegrimsleeper · Post by **thegrimsleeper** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:22 pm

They are light... but they look fantastic! A very nice counterpoint to the darker maps... Can't wait for the liveness. Good work Kev.

Jota · Post by **Jota** » Tue May 30, 2006 2:31 pm

The colors look OK to me (although the green could be brightened a little), but I think Marvaddin might be right. It's true that "not all continents need to be holdable", but having the Midlands, the East, and the South East right next to each other makes me wonder if any player who starts in that half of the map might be doomed from the start, just because there's nowhere for them to really gain a foothold while other players claim the West and South West.

(Oh, and I think it's great that you're switching to non-directional continent names.)

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:16 am

jsut a bit of well you know, umm i believe donegal is acutally part of the republic of ireland, where as n. ireland is the continent its in.

rocksolid · Post by **rocksolid** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:45 am

I'm an Irish citizen...if you're short of the 6 for the breakin game, feel free to call on me...though I suspect there are 6 who are really from Ireland.

Marvaddin wrote:I believe that some continents have more borders than they should, and 5 continents is too much... Just my opinion. Anyone with me?

I think Marv means 6 is too much. If you'll check the first page, it was Marv who called for 5 continents in the first place...

I think 6 is fine.

And Kyle, Donegal is not in the continent of "Northern Ireland", but in the continent of "The North". You're right to point that out, but I'm sure Kevin is well aware of it. Partitioning Donegal from the rest of Ulster wouldn't make sense in a map where the continents are geographical, not political.

Since you are changing the continent names (good idea), a couple of suggestions - three of the old provinces are more or less intact, so Connacht, Munster and Ulster; the other three - you could make the Dublin one The Pale, and the Waterford one Ossory.

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Wed May 31, 2006 3:19 pm

rocksolid wrote:I'm an Irish citizen...if you're short of the 6 for the breakin game, feel free to call on me...though I suspect there are 6 who are really from Ireland.

Marvaddin wrote:I believe that some continents have more borders than they should, and 5 continents is too much... Just my opinion. Anyone with me?

I think Marv means 6 is too much. If you'll check the first page, it was Marv who called for 5 continents in the first place...

I think 6 is fine.

And Kyle, Donegal is not in the continent of "Northern Ireland", but in the continent of "The North". You're right to point that out, but I'm sure Kevin is well aware of it. Partitioning Donegal from the rest of Ulster wouldn't make sense in a map where the continents are geographical, not political.

Since you are changing the continent names (good idea), a couple of suggestions - three of the old provinces are more or less intact, so Connacht, Munster and Ulster; the other three - you could make the Dublin one The Pale, and the Waterford one Ossory.

I still think with him changing the continents he should make the country of northern ireland a continent and put donegal as part of the west region, it would also provide an interesting twist since donegal would be like sort of a lone ranger over there in the north bieng part of the west.

I'd play it regardless.

kevinc · Post by **kevinc** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:05 pm

Thanks for the suggestions folks. Good idea on Ossory rocksolid, I wouldn't have thought of that, and Sunny South East was a bit too long

I think the midlands and The Pale(as it's now called) as easy enough to hold. Ossary will be tough, but it's got a high value, like Asia on the Classic map. We'll see how it plays out anyway, if things need adjusting I'll certainly do that.

Here's the version I've sent to lack anyways:

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:13 pm

kevinc wrote:Thanks for the suggestions folks. Good idea on Ossory rocksolid, I wouldn't have thought of that, and Sunny South East was a bit too long

I think the midlands and The Pale(as it's now called) as easy enough to hold. Ossary will be tough, but it's got a high value, like Asia on the Classic map. We'll see how it plays out anyway, if things need adjusting I'll certainly do that.

Here's the version I've sent to lack anyways:

how long til lack approves it?

AndyDufresne · Post by **AndyDufresne** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:17 pm

The Ireland Map is still currently going through a final hammering out stage. And there still seems to be discussion going on, so I will not rush it. Only once there is a general Foundry consensus that the map is ready, will it be on the site for live play. Submitting it before the map has receieved the 'Foundry Brand' will only hinder it more.

--Andy

reverend_kyle · Post by **reverend_kyle** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:26 pm

i think its ready.

Jota · Post by **Jota** » Wed May 31, 2006 5:43 pm

Since I was one of the ones who voiced objection, I want to make it explicit that I'd be willing to accept the map as it is. While I'd prefer to see The Pale or Ossory with one border fewer (with an appropriate recalculation of its bonus), I wouldn't hold up the final forging over it.

Machiavelli · Post by **Machiavelli** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:13 pm

**ignores every other post and just looks at the map**

I think it looks very professional and very good.

Great job.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Wed May 31, 2006 6:46 pm

Yeah, I think 5 continents is good, 6 is too much. I confused myself.

The aspect of the map is great, but i think its the only really good point.
The continent bonuses, for example, are crazy: Midlands 4, and Connaught 2 for example; or Ulster 4 and Ossory 6. Totally unbalanced.

Midlands easy enough to hold? Of course it isnt. It can be attacked from 8 different locations. As the Pale, too. These continents are lost land, unless you have peacemaker neighbours.

I still believe that Midlands and Pale should be only one continent. It would be a bigger one... To add some balance, you could block routes between Cavan and Fermannagh, Wexford and Wicklow.

rocksolid · Post by **rocksolid** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:09 pm

Hey, sorry I didn't notice this before -

Spelling on Clare (not Claire)

Spelling on Fermanagh (not Fermannagh)

(this may be intentional) L in Longford is small caps, not large caps like other initials

Also, suggestion for Midlands - name is fine, but an alternative is Mide, the old kingdom that used to be in that spot before Leinster spread to its size.

And are you sure you want to identify the water off Cork as St. George's channel? I assume it's accurate, but in the spirit of the map, you might prefer to just refer to the Irish Sea :wink:

.

This map is a beaut.

qeee1 · Post by **qeee1** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:27 pm

... Nice, at this stage I just want to play, though those corrections Rock mentioned have to be made. Proud to have such a nice map for my country.

kevinc · Post by **kevinc** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:25 am

Marv, I appreaciate your comments. But I'm going to go on my gut on this one though and sticking to the current setup for now.

rocksolid, cheers for spotting those typos. I'll fix them immediately.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:50 am

Are you lazy? Shouldnt you justify your option? Jota also thinks there are many borders... I believe those continents are unplayable, and I would like to see something done, so I could enjoy the map. The bonuses should be revised, too. Both things kill the map.

Its just my opinion, dont becomes angry, but I believe this map have really really serious errors, almost as Indochina map. I insist in the matter because you worked hard, the map can be a very good one, but it will not this way, despite the great graphics. Its not the same situation as the Middle Earth map. There, I dislike some things, but I see it working, and not here.

Please, pleeeease reconsider it. If I knew it would be this way, I would not suggest 5 continents, with 4 it was better.

rocksolid · Post by **rocksolid** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:41 am

The way I see it, there are two easily holdable continents (Connacht and Munster), one challenging one (Ulster) and three that are very difficult to hold (the Leinster ones). If there were only five continents, I think the two Leinster ones that would result would still be fairly difficult to hold, and would probably only get held at the end of the game when it doesn't matter, if ever - not really a big change, even if the borders were reduced by putting, say, the Wicklow mts between a combined The Pale/Mide and Ossory. I think the main rationale for decreasing the number of continents would have to be the increasing of the number of holdable continents, and therefore the number of players who can "find a home" in a game on the map, which I don't really see happening even if there are only 5 continents. While I see the problem Marv is worried about - Leinster is unholdable - reducing the number of continents won't really solve it, as I see it, though it could mitigate it a little. And I think it's reasonable to argue that by keeping the number of continents high, and thereby keeping them small, there's just as good a chance of their being held, especially if (as with Europe on the classic map) other players tend to fortify out of Leinster in despair.

So, in sum, I think it could go either way. Unless (and even if) more natural boundaries are thrown in - say, the royal canal, or the Wicklow mts - Leinster is probably doomed to be a no man's land no matter how many continents make it up. And I don't like the idea of more natural boundaries than are already here, because you can walk from one side of the island to the other unhindered (been done :wink:

), and I like maps to stay relatively diligent to geography.

So maybe it should be changed, maybe not, but I think it's hard to say ahead of time without playing it. I think Kevin will be as ready as anybody to alter the number of continents in a month or so if he doesn't like how it's playing out.

john123 · Post by **john123** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:20 pm

i think its ready, like the setup, makes for more thought about strategy when you have to play differently than on the other maps

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:05 am

I agree, then. Maybe 5 continents with a bigger one could not be that useful (although I still prefer a big one than 2 small and useless). So, maybe we can suggest another things, beyond of the union between Midlands and Pale. For example:

Wicklow could belong to Ossory. Its border could be extended to block Carlow. Kildare could join Dublin. Or maybe Longford could disappear.

At other hand, 3 is a great bonus to Munster anyway, so Cork could be splitted. As Galway or Mayo.

So, no need to have wasted continents. We will only have it if we choose so, and I personally wouldnt like it. Maybe we can discuss by pm, kevin, so you can present another option, and then people can choose.

kevinc · Post by **kevinc** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:41 am

Marvaddin, with all due respect, I said about 3 posts ago that I've made my decision. I've listened to your comments and taken some of them on board. I have said what's there now is final, yet you continue to post repeating the same points. I understand you disagree, but understand too that this is my map, and I've thought about it a lot more than you have, please have the courtesy to respect my decision.

Marvaddin · Post by **Marvaddin** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:05 pm

Well, I thought I have heard Andy saying the makers couldnt do wrong things only based in "this is my map, I do what I want". I thought they should explain their options based in logical ideas, only this. My goal was not make you (or anyone) angry, was only have a better map.

I continue believing that wasted continents are an error, as the bonuses for this map. But its your choice, I will have that courtesy. Also, its always good have some maps less played than mine

Haydena · Post by **Haydena** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:01 pm

Marvaddin wrote:Also, its always good have some maps less played than mine

Oh, I dunno Marv, that is kinda arrogant

. I think on aesthetics alone this will be more appealing than the Brazil map, it's also not a complete Classic map clone like your map is, I remember some of your comments... "I'll study the classic map"...

I think it'll be played more than the Brazil map... It's a lot better in my opinion, your map is starting to look out of date with all these new good looking maps (Not including mine lol)