Better off: Homosexual or Dead?

[AAFitz]

So let me get this straight.

Killing is wrong.

Except... if your government tells you to kill, so the government can raid another country and rob it's oil resources, then suddenly killing is not wrong? Somehow, it's not even killing anymore?

Killing another human being is wrong, no matter the justifications. The soldiers themselves know it, or there wouldn't be so many cases of post-traumatic stress among war veterans.

You live under the protection these men and women provide. You pay taxes. If you think that's different than volunteering to serve and protect your country, you are simply wrong. Police are even forced to kill people to protect you.

No one said killing wasnt Killing. It is of course killing, and there are no doubt murderers and evil people in the military, but to say all those who have killed in the name of protecting their country, families, and you are murderous sinners, is the most cowardice thing Ive ever heard, because you simply would not even be able to say those things, if they did not provide you with the safe area to do so.

Further, if you think sitting back and watching an entire country be terrorized and mistreated is any less than sinful, so be it.

If you think those men that went to Germany to free an entire race of people from certain extermination were sinners for doing so, you sir, too, are also a coward without bounds. To sit back and play your game, and type that all these damn sinners made it possible for you to do so, is the most vile thing Ive read on these forums since Ive been on CC.

I beg of you to have this conversation in that Veterans hospital you spoke of. You of course may have to find out what its like to defend yourself after that though. And, good luck with that.

The only reason we all do not have to kill other people, is because others do it for us. If you think you are less sinful for enjoying that freedom than they are, well, do some soul searching. You pay them to do it. You do nothing to stop it. You do nothing to support it. You do nothing whatsoever to stop it from being necessary. You sit back at a game, and judge them for providing you life, where it would simply not be had they not....and then you call them sinners. I suppose thats fine, but you are not only a sinner, but a coward too.

[AAFitz]

Are you saying that people who are asked to kill in the military are sinning and going against the word of their God when doing so?

Uh....yes. Why are they not?

Killing to protect ones country, family or in self defense is not a sin. You also are a coward that sits behind the wall of safety they provide and cast stones at their backs.

Again, a reprehensible post...but you too are free to your opinion. You condemn them for that safety, I thank them.

I condemn you however, as does any who understand the sacrifice these men and women make so you can sit on your cushion and type your words. God help you if you ever have to protect someone you love by killing them. I somehow think your view on that being a sin may change. Or not, either way, I dont care. I simply once again thank those that have died, killed and sacrificed, so I can sit here and type out how I feel you are also a coward and sinful beyond its religions connotations of the word.

What? Since when is pointing out the blatant inconsistency in religion cowardice? Why do you assume I don't support the military?]

I dont have to assume it. You simply dont. To post that those that kill in the name of protecting our country are sinners for doing so is not support. Its a cowardice attack. And, if you thank them and pay taxes, its even more so, because you simply want them to do it for you. You are no more than an assassins boss. But they at least have the courage to do it for you, because its clear you cannot.

[natty dread]

[quote="AAFitz]
You live under the protection these men and women provide. You pay taxes. If you think that's different than volunteering to serve and protect your country, you are simply wrong. Police are even forced to kill people to protect you. [/quote]

What? The army of my country hasn't killed pretty much anyone in decades. Also, police doesn't kill people except as a last resort. If they do, they will be accountable for it just like anyone else.

I know my tax money pays for the army of my country, but at least it doesn't support armies that invade other countries for their oil...

No one said killing wasnt Killing. It is of course killing, and there are no doubt murderers and evil people in the military, but to say all those who have killed in the name of protecting their country, families, and you are murderous sinners, is the most cowardice thing Ive ever heard, because you simply would not even be able to say those things, if they did not provide you with the safe area to do so.

When have I ever said killers were murderous sinners? Please don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was that killing is wrong, and there's no way to justify it. Granted there may be situations where killing is necessary in order to defend yourself or your family or countrymen. However the necessity of such act doesn't make it any more right, it's still wrong. Sometimes we have to do things that are wrong for the greater good. Such is life.

Further, if you think sitting back and watching an entire country be terrorized and mistreated is any less than sinful, so be it.

Which country? Iraq? Afghanistan?

If you think those men that went to Germany to free an entire race of people from certain extermination were sinners for doing so, you sir, too, are also a coward without bounds. To sit back and play your game, and type that all these damn sinners made it possible for you to do so, is the most vile thing Ive read on these forums since Ive been on CC.

See response #2. And thanks for calling me sir. Makes me feel important.

I beg of you to have this conversation in that Veterans hospital you spoke of. You of course may have to find out what its like to defend yourself after that though. And, good luck with that.

It's kinda hard to find war veterans around here. Most of them are dead, since the last war my country was in was WW2. Other than that, I'd be glad to discuss these subjects with any war veteran, and I'm going to wager a guess that none of the people who have actually seen war would insist that killing is right.

Do you think people that are forced to go to war are happy to kill other people? Of course they aren't. They know it's wrong. (except for some psychopaths). But due to circumstances they often have to do it anyway.

[Frigidus]

AAFitz, I might be wrong here, but aren't goasklucy and Snorri more showing disdain for Christianity than the armed forces?

[Snorri1234]

I dont have to assume it. You simply dont. To post that those that kill in the name of protecting our country are sinners for doing so is not support. Its a cowardice attack. And, if you thank them and pay taxes, its even more so, because you simply want them to do it for you. You are no more than an assassins boss. But they at least have the courage to do it for you, because its clear you cannot.

What the f*ck? I'm not a pacifist, I'm not opposed to just wars. I don't have much qualms about killing, I just simply don't join the military because I'd rather finish medschool than go to bootcamp. That's not cowardice, thats just doing what I like.

I'm an atheist, the concept of sin is religious which, you know, means I don't use it to refer to things that are against my personal ethical code. I don't believe in sin, so saying that some people are sinners according to some stupid book doesn't mean I judge them.

[lgoasklucyl]

Further, if you think sitting back and watching an entire country be terrorized and mistreated is any less than sinful, so be it.

I would have no problem with military intervention in Darfur, Sudan, Burma or any other country where the government/military/religious groups happen to be, literally, self-destructing the population. If sending troops in to straighten out issues in these (and similar) countries would solve these problems and save tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives is the only solution than so be it. But you won't see a sizable US military presence there, as we don't have monetary... er... sorry... "freedom" to protect there.

[karel]

gays should not be allowed to join the military,its just wrong

[Timminz]

Fitzy, I'm afraid you're lost here.

Thou shalt not kill.

I don't see any sub-sections or clauses attached to that.

According to the bible, killing is a sin. Full stop.

[AAFitz]

Fitzy, I'm afraid you're lost here.

Thou shalt not kill.

I don't see any sub-sections or clauses attached to that.

According to the bible, killing is a sin. Full stop.

though shalt not kill does not necessarily mean though shalt not kill under any circumstances.

It is against the law to kill also, but not always. Granted, Moses wasnt thinking very clearly when he etched that one out.

There are many clauses in the bible. Its an essential collection of parables, which are specifically meant to be clauses.

God himself asked someone to kill his son. Clearly, he feels its ok at times. Its right there in the bible. The ten commandments is hardly the bible. Its ten quick general laws, but clearly are not meant to be all inclusive, and meant to discount the rest of the hundreds of pages of the bible. The bible makes it very clear that killing to protect ones family and country is very much not a sin. Certainly conditions must be correct, which is why the bible teaches through parables, and not straight statements, which clearly cannot be expected to apply to every situation one may encounter in life.

If someone is coming to kill your baby, it is not sinful to kill him if it is required to stop him. Every situation is different of course, as the bible explains, and motives and situation will be very important, but it is indeed very, very possible to break the commandment of though shalt not kill, and not be breaking that commandment. The commandment should be better translated to though shalt not murder, but it is not, so this silly discussions of words ensues, and people like lucy will use the opportunity to call our servicemen and women sinners for protecting us and providing him the opportunity to do so.

[AAFitz]

Further, if you think sitting back and watching an entire country be terrorized and mistreated is any less than sinful, so be it.

I would have no problem with military intervention in Darfur, Sudan, Burma or any other country where the government/military/religious groups happen to be, literally, self-destructing the population. If sending troops in to straighten out issues in these (and similar) countries would solve these problems and save tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives is the only solution than so be it. But you won't see a sizable US military presence there, as we don't have monetary... er... sorry... "freedom" to protect there.

So its ok to kill, but only if you happen to agree with the cause.

When you join the military, you join to protect our nation. Calling that sinful is the most cowardly thing I have ever read from anyone on this forum. It was good to see you saw that right after you posted it...but you did post it none the less. In any case, what are you doing for those nations... surely clicking away in here isnt exactly fighting for those people you pretend to care about.

Well, Saddam was a sadistic ruler and we freed those people from his tyranny. No doubt we have not solved the problem, but unfortunately such things take time money and sacrifice. In any case, those in the military who are asked to kill are asked to do so in the name of our country, and are not able to question the orders or areas they are asked to fight....with obvious exceptions....You calling that sinful is just pathetic...especially as you get to play your little game here....ONLY because they and others have done so for you.

[AAFitz]

gays should not be allowed to join the military,its just wrong

Why stop there?

Why not keep out blacks, asians, jews, women, and anyone with blond hair?

Too many people have died in the military for the rights of all men who are created equal. Sorry, just because some dont happen to like it, doesnt mean you get to go against that important principle.

For a time, sure, but ultimately, not a chance.

[karel]

cuz gays would make it worse

women should not be in combat roles anyways

[AAFitz]

cuz gays would make it worse

women should not be in combat roles anyways

Would make it worse? There are gays in the military now. How are they making it worse?

There are women in the military now. How are they making it worse?

I suspect quite a few gays, and women would make much better soldiers than yourself.

[b.k. barunt]

If your eye causes you to sin it is better to pluck it out than for your entire body to be thrown into the lake of fire.
To answer: Homosexual is better than dieing in sin.

I'm sorry, I misread this. What sin are you referring to?

And, is homosexually not opposed as a sin?

Editing your post for a typo is understandable, but editing your post to change your stance is dishonest and cowardly. Fortunately fitz quoted it before you scurried to rearrange things.

To answer you pre-edited question, no - according to the Bible killing someone was not a "worse sin" than homosexuality. Killing in war was not considered a sin at all. Out and out murder was a sin that carried the same penalty as homosexuality (death) in the Old Testament, but it was not deemed an "abomination" as was homosexuality.

To answer your first question, if i woke up one morning with an insatiable desire to get fucked in the ass or suck a dick my first move would be for my shotgun. Clear enough?


Honibaz

[lgoasklucyl]

Fitz, you do realize that repeatedly spewing the word cowardice to refer to everything that you don't directly agree with isn't going to get you anywhere, right? I'm assuming not, as it seems it's really all you have to add to the conversation. I never saw cowardice in a word I said, as I believe every word of it.

Killing is a sin. Period. I didn't write the rules, nor do I abide by them. You end the life of another, that is a sin. In the bible, God never intended for Abraham to kill his son. He was testing his faith and stopped him before he did so. If you're going to refer to discuss the bible, at least have a basic knowledge of it.

And I never said that it is okay to kill if I agree with the cause. As I have repeatedly said (and you repeatedly chosen to ignore), I do not support killing in any way, shape, or form.

In regards to having anything to do with the countries I vie for the assistance for, though I really needn't defend myself, I do as much as I possibly can. I've organized and partaken in a great deal of benefits, sent more advocacy letters on more causes than I could possibly count, and done everything within my power to accomplish as much as I could at any given time. Since I intend on devoting my life to working with children and families in this country through residential treatment and social services, however, I need to finish my education. Therefore, I am limited in my power to wave a magic wand and make everything better.

[lgoasklucyl]

If your eye causes you to sin it is better to pluck it out than for your entire body to be thrown into the lake of fire.
To answer: Homosexual is better than dieing in sin.

I'm sorry, I misread this. What sin are you referring to?

And, is homosexually not opposed as a sin?

Editing your post for a typo is understandable, but editing your post to change your stance is dishonest and cowardly. Fortunately fitz quoted it before you scurried to rearrange things.

To answer you pre-edited question, no - according to the Bible killing someone was not a "worse sin" than homosexuality. Killing in war was not considered a sin at all. Out and out murder was a sin that carried the same penalty as homosexuality (death) in the Old Testament, but it was not deemed an "abomination" as was homosexuality.

To answer your first question, if i woke up one morning with an insatiable desire to get fucked in the ass or suck a dick my first move would be for my shotgun. Clear enough?


Honibaz

If you honestly feel that homosexuality is that terrible, I am in full support of you grabbing your shotgun.

The post had to be edited with the severity that it was because it was in response to something I read completely wrong. Leaving it worded as such would have been pointless, as I totally misread was Jay wrote and originally had responded to that statement. I didn't change it out of 'cowardice', fearing the big-bag Fitz would trounce on my terrible worldviews; I changed it because it had nothing to do with what Jay had said.

[b.k. barunt]

gays should not be allowed to join the military,its just wrong

Too many people have died in the military for the rights of all men who are created equal..

I don't recall fighting for gay rights while i was in the military. Actually at the time we were fighting primarily to fill the coffers of the Rand Corporation. We were told though that we were fighting Communism - i guess they forgot to tell us we were fighting for gay rights.


Honibaz

[AAFitz]

gays should not be allowed to join the military,its just wrong

Too many people have died in the military for the rights of all men who are created equal..

I don't recall fighting for gay rights while i was in the military. Actually at the time we were fighting primarily to fill the coffers of the Rand Corporation. We were told though that we were fighting Communism - i guess they forgot to tell us we were fighting for gay rights.


Honibaz

Well, you were fighting for all peoples rights and we all thank you for that. Unfortunately, the power of the military is not always in the the best of hands at all times, but that does not diminish the reason why the men and women of the military are there.

What are your thoughts about soldiers being sinners for killing for their country, as quite a few here suggest they are?

[Woodruff]

No, hes saying that they are killers and that they are breaking one of the commandments, which would make it a sin. The fact that he nor I nor you may consider it a sin is irrelevant. He is implying that people in the military are sinning by killing and using their own religion to do so...only to combat this post by Jay, which admittedly is incoherent at best...and perhaps why lucy let this slip the way it did.

Wait...since when is killing not a sin according to teh commandments?

Are you saying that people who are asked to kill in the military are sinning and going against the word of their God when doing so?

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

gays should not be allowed to join the military,its just wrong

Why? What's "wrong" about it?

cuz gays would make it worse

How? Specifics here, please.

women should not be in combat roles anyways

Why?

[Snorri1234]

No, hes saying that they are killers and that they are breaking one of the commandments, which would make it a sin. The fact that he nor I nor you may consider it a sin is irrelevant. He is implying that people in the military are sinning by killing and using their own religion to do so...only to combat this post by Jay, which admittedly is incoherent at best...and perhaps why lucy let this slip the way it did.

Wait...since when is killing not a sin according to teh commandments?

Are you saying that people who are asked to kill in the military are sinning and going against the word of their God when doing so?

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

Interpretations vary quite a bit. The exact translation is probably "murder" rather than "kill", however War is pretty problematic as determining whether a war is just or not is very hard in religious terms. Roman catholics generally are okay with neccesary force in self-defense for example, but is a pre-emptive strike self defense?


This is the catholic postion regarding war:

# The reasons for going to war are defensive.
# "The damage inflicted by the aggressor ... must be lasting, grave, and certain."
# It is a last resort taken only after all other means of putting an end to the "grave damage" have been ineffective.
# The ultimate aim is peace and there is a serious chance of success.
# No graver evils are produced that overshadow the evil to be eliminated. This forbids the use of arms to eliminate whole cities and areas with their inhabitants.
# Respect and care is required for non-combatants, wounded soldiers and prisoners. Soldiers are required to disobey commands to commit genocide and ones that violate universal principles

Obviously this means there is quite some debate regarding the last few modern wars.

[tzor]

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

While there are no “exceptions” in the Ten Commandments (Side note, just writing that makes me angry; there are the “ten words” written on the stone tablets; what those words are we have no idea because they are only on those stone tablets (the second set by the way, the first one apparently was left for scrap after Moses broke them) in the Arc of the Covenant. There are two descriptive texts of those ten words in the Torah and both Jewish, Protestants and Catholics parse those texts differently) there is a significant problem of word translation. A better translation of the Hebrew is “murder” not “kill.”

[AAFitz]

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

While there are no “exceptions” in the Ten Commandments (Side note, just writing that makes me angry; there are the “ten words” written on the stone tablets; what those words are we have no idea because they are only on those stone tablets (the second set by the way, the first one apparently was left for scrap after Moses broke them) in the Arc of the Covenant. There are two descriptive texts of those ten words in the Torah and both Jewish, Protestants and Catholics parse those texts differently) there is a significant problem of word translation. A better translation of the Hebrew is “murder” not “kill.”

Im absolutely amazed that this is not more obvious, especially since I inherently knew that, and I havent even studied the bible, but clear common sense makes it obvious that the commandment was not though shalt never kill no matter what, which is why calling servicemen who are asked to defend the nation, are not guilty of breaking this commandment.

Obviously in some cases they are, but calling them all sinners is the most cowardly thing Ive seen written in these forums in my entire time at CC. It was however refreshing to see snori stepped up and essentially explained the same thing that you have, which completely justifies this statement, which quite frankly as I said before, was self evident, not even having studied the bible...or, even believing it was the divine word of any God. I simply knew the writers could not be as foolish as to make such a simple law, and since the bible is not just one page, with ten commandments...I think its safe to say there is very much the possibility of translation, otherwise....the one page would be enough.

[Snorri1234]

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

While there are no “exceptions” in the Ten Commandments (Side note, just writing that makes me angry; there are the “ten words” written on the stone tablets; what those words are we have no idea because they are only on those stone tablets (the second set by the way, the first one apparently was left for scrap after Moses broke them) in the Arc of the Covenant. There are two descriptive texts of those ten words in the Torah and both Jewish, Protestants and Catholics parse those texts differently) there is a significant problem of word translation. A better translation of the Hebrew is “murder” not “kill.”

Im absolutely amazed that this is not more obvious, especially since I inherently knew that, and I havent even studied the bible, but clear common sense makes it obvious that the commandment was not though shalt never kill no matter what, which is why calling servicemen who are asked to defend the nation, are not guilty of breaking this commandment.

Obviously in some cases they are, but calling them all sinners is the most cowardly thing Ive seen written in these forums in my entire time at CC. It was however refreshing to see snori stepped up and essentially explained the same thing that you have, which completely justifies this statement, which quite frankly as I said before, was self evident, not even having studied the bible...or, even believing it was the divine word of any God. I simply knew the writers could not be as foolish as to make such a simple law, and since the bible is not just one page, with ten commandments...I think its safe to say there is very much the possibility of translation, otherwise....the one page would be enough.

There are actually a bunch of christian groups who believe it's Thou Shalt never kill no matter what. They're a minority, but still. The explanation is that while any kill is a sin, those who commit it out of neccesity and don't feel good about it are forgiven. There's also the jewish concept that while it's always a sin, those who do not know it's a sin are forgiven and not at fault.

The thing is that this commandment has religous views based on interpretation. The early christians for example actually were strictly opposed to any violence, they would neither join the army nor kill in self-defense. It was only once the church was really established that it got more nuanced in it's views.

[AAFitz]

I don't recall there being a lot of exceptions listed in the Ten Commandments. Did you get a different version of them than I did?

While there are no “exceptions” in the Ten Commandments (Side note, just writing that makes me angry; there are the “ten words” written on the stone tablets; what those words are we have no idea because they are only on those stone tablets (the second set by the way, the first one apparently was left for scrap after Moses broke them) in the Arc of the Covenant. There are two descriptive texts of those ten words in the Torah and both Jewish, Protestants and Catholics parse those texts differently) there is a significant problem of word translation. A better translation of the Hebrew is “murder” not “kill.”

Im absolutely amazed that this is not more obvious, especially since I inherently knew that, and I havent even studied the bible, but clear common sense makes it obvious that the commandment was not though shalt never kill no matter what, which is why calling servicemen who are asked to defend the nation, are not guilty of breaking this commandment.

Obviously in some cases they are, but calling them all sinners is the most cowardly thing Ive seen written in these forums in my entire time at CC. It was however refreshing to see snori stepped up and essentially explained the same thing that you have, which completely justifies this statement, which quite frankly as I said before, was self evident, not even having studied the bible...or, even believing it was the divine word of any God. I simply knew the writers could not be as foolish as to make such a simple law, and since the bible is not just one page, with ten commandments...I think its safe to say there is very much the possibility of translation, otherwise....the one page would be enough.

There are actually a bunch of christian groups who believe it's Thou Shalt never kill no matter what. They're a minority, but still. The explanation is that while any kill is a sin, those who commit it out of neccesity and don't feel good about it are forgiven. There's also the jewish concept that while it's always a sin, those who do not know it's a sin are forgiven and not at fault.

The thing is that this commandment has religous views based on interpretation. The early christians for example actually were strictly opposed to any violence, they would neither join the army nor kill in self-defense. It was only once the church was really established that it got more nuanced in it's views.

Which is why to say all people in the military that kill in our defense as sinners is cowardly, because it is misinterpreting or at least interpreting a text thousands of years old, and in the end, is a choice. And since the ten commandments is one page, and the bible hundreds, its very clear that to say all military are sinners is just ridiculous, especially when those doing so, relied on that killing to live free from having to kill themselves, and are the ones funding it ultimately.

[lgoasklucyl]

Here, I'll compromise with you. I'll accept being a coward for stating something that's clearly written in the currently accepted religious books of numerous religions and for abiding by my belief that war and killing is immoral.

In return, you get to accept being a coward for hiding behind so-called "patriotism" and support for your country through backing a senseless war that has resulted in more than its fair share of unnecessary deaths.

So, I get to be a coward for opposing killing and believing war is immoral, while you get to be a coward for openly supporting the unnecessary allocation of funding/human life (civilian and military personnel) for a war that need not have reached anywhere near the extent that it has.

There, we can all unite as cowards now.